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RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Very good thread Todd.
How about posting pictures of our installs to show the rookies how it should look after you are done? |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
That look like Rafi hornet nest.
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RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
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This was my install in my former SM Hawk 100
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RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: Carbon-Customs This was my install in my former SM Hawk 100 :D As in that install is crazy nice!... Z |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
If the model in the original photo had a plate over that area with the fuel pumps and ECU etc on it would that make it neater? Many of the installs that I have seen (and to be fair some that I have done) don't have the spaghetti removed, but just hidden out of sight.
There are questions that we can't answer looking at that install from the photo. e.g. 1) Is the tray carbon or carbon effect? 2) Which of the pumps is the fuel pump? 3) Is the ECU stuffed in as many have suggested, or is it velcro'd/glued/attached to the wooden bar that it appears to be sat on. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Maybe I'm going blind but I can't see any major don'ts. Sure it's a bit untidy and things like safety wiring would be a bonus but I would think that model would fly perfectly well as it is. ORIGINAL: siclick33 If the model in the original photo had a plate over that area with the fuel pumps and ECU etc on it would that make it neater? Many of the installs that I have seen (and to be fair some that I have done) don't have the spaghetti removed, but just hidden out of sight. There are questions that we can't answer looking at that install from the photo. e.g. 1) Is the tray carbon or carbon effect? 2) Which of the pumps is the fuel pump? 3) Is the ECU stuffed in as many have suggested, or is it velcro'd/glued/attached to the wooden bar that it appears to be sat on. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
As a rookie, I am fortunate to be surrounded by a great group of guys with many years of jet experience.
Other than the obvious RX, power box, fuel pump, ECU, safety wiring, wiring, pump location etc. The thing that really sticks out to me is the plumbing! I'm guessing the engine never stood a chance! |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Other than the obvious RX, power box, fuel pump, ECU, safety wiring, wiring, pump location etc. The thing that really sticks out to me is the plumbing! I'm interested to hear what Todd has picked out as his don'ts. To me a don't is something like a clevis without a retainer or if the aerials in the original picture had been parallel. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Todd why don't you add a section to your website, I have helped friends that don't come to rcu but they order from dreamworksrc website. Just a thought plus they don't have to dig through everything for the info.
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RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
I'm guessing the engine never stood a chance! We can all be in agreement that this is not the neatest install, however I fail to see where it is not properly functional based on the picture alone .. I have done dozens of installs, in both very tight and cramped planes, as well as wide and spacious ones.. some technical items i notice here , and general observations .. - the pump on the left is a TamJets style smoke pump. You can tell by the RX wire going into it, as well as that i don't think anyone makes a smoke pump like the one on the right ( in that case color .. the evojet one is similar color, but this is not it. With that said, the spacing from the RX is reasonable. - ECU placement, while ideally this would be a little farther from the RX, this is not as much ( if any) of an issue with 2.4ghz receivers. Spacing here has always had to do with an ECU potentially inducing RF noise into a 72/25mhz RX, and not the other way around ... same reason for why we don't need ferrite rings anymore on longer servo leads coming into a 2.4 rx - plumbing: besides cosmetic preference, i do not see an issue here. Actually, there are no kinks or tight bends in the lines so thats good, so fuel can flow freely. Many "neat" installs have junk so tightly zip tied and organized where there kinks in lines, and even wire chafing. now that is a nono. Running plumbing over electronics not a huge deal. If static discharge is a concern, one has to think of what the actual discharge points would be. In the case of a charge build up inside the closed fuel circuit, this would typically only be through the pump, solenoids, or actual turbine and through the wiring into the ECU. A charge wont jump through tubing, which is an insulator. These are issues only really applicable to big blocks of 40+ lbs thrust because of the fuel draw rate through the plumbing. In that case i would be looking at running larger diameter tubing and fittings throughout so as to maintain flow volume, however reducing flow "speed" . I have a P200 that was problematic on static issues at first, and enlarging tubing and fitting diameter resolved that .. - safety wire. If the proper size tubing is used on the correct fittings, its not necessary and just extra. I do see safety wire here on several components, including the fuel pump. Its not clear otherwise what components are from the smoke system, or for fueling/filling. Also a note on safety wire .. it can cause leaks if not wrapped properly. It a good idea to double wind the wire around a fitting and then twist tight so as to provide uniform pressure on the tubing, while not potentially cutting/biting into it. - cabling / wiring .. just as wit the fuel system, i don't see anything tightly zip tied, kinked or just too tight. It looks loose enough, yet secure so nothing is flying anywhere. - carbon .. that's clearly an ABS simulated CF plate .. so if anyone is concerned about carbon, this would not be the case ... -thought the antennas could potentially be a little more in the clear, they to appear to be at 90deg , and not parallel. If the issue with this plane is the RX dropping on the link, i would move that away from the ECU, but this really should not be the case on 2.4 ... am I missing something ? is there supposed to be something obvious jumping out about this install ? Voy |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/t...35/Ot47988.jpg
actually this is a perfect example of how resilient 2.4 RX are .. This looks to actually be real carbon, and while deliberately covering the RX antennas entirely from one side like this with CF would by considered an absolute do-not-do by most , i'm sure this plane has flown with no actual radio issues ... i personally would not do that on any of my planes, but that's just personal preference. it does look neat though ;) ~V~ |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: siclick33 If the model in the original photo had a plate over that area with the fuel pumps and ECU etc on it would that make it neater? Many of the installs that I have seen (and to be fair some that I have done) don't have the spaghetti removed, but just hidden out of sight. I remember helping a guy for an hour, motor would not transition up. After about 90 seconds of this I asked him if the shutoff valve was plugged in correctly and "where is the ECU"? He says "under there". This plane had gorgeous trays, painted, clear coated, inked panel lines and rivets. Really pretty like a show car engine compartment. Anyway I said we need to check that the shutoff valve was plugged in right, as it was not behaving. He assured me it was plugged in right. We poked around a bit longer and I pushed him a bit more on the shutoff valve, and he told me (super nice guy BTW) that it was plugged in right, and he reminded me how hard it was going to be to get to that ECU. Well an hour later the motor was running, 1 minute to plug the shutoff valve in the right way and 59 minutes to finally decide to pull the tray out. Underneath the tray it looked just like this first photo in the thread. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: tamjets That look like Rafi hornet nest. Don't make another bet with me. You'll loose. Again. And I NEVER fly futaba. http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ets/F-18f1.jpg http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps825bf536.jpg http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps7e0d1ad8.jpg |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
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ORIGINAL: ravill ORIGINAL: tamjets That look like Rafi hornet nest. Don't make another bet with me. You'll loose. Again. And I NEVER fly futaba. http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ets/F-18f1.jpg Lol... Just wonder how you goes to put your hornet nest in the little Habu 32. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
actually the one antenna facing upwards in above the CF plate, and the other is under.
i had no connection trouble. and yes its a real homemade 5mm Honeycomb Plate |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
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Before and after
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RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Hi
The pic shows a quiet messy install. If it were my plane I would change these: 1 - Route the 6014 antennas 90º 2 - Take the 6-4mm reducer in the suction side of pump. Make a direct 6mm thru the pump with no reducers 3 - Take the fuel pump and smoke pump away from the powerbox 4 - Take the Festo reducer from the pressure side. I assume it is a querostart turbine, but would fit a simple Y festo with barbed fittings 5 - Route the fuel and electric cables orderely This is my Hawk install http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apgs6...Ti6usg&index=7 Best regards Nuno |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Ok....not much time to spare today so I'll cover a few that really stand out.
Lets discuss static for a moment – While today’s RC systems and ECU’s are more robust than ever, Static has proven to be a prevalent issue that should not be ignored. While I live in a humid state, we have still experienced and witnessed static discharges that have directly affected on-board equipment. The problem of static discharge comes about due to the fact that nothing in the aircraft is “grounded”. Flying, Fueling the aircraft, fuel sloshing and turbine fuel pumps/smoke pumps are all sources of static generation. Even the vent line, when dust travels in the air gets sucked through and impacts on the tubing walls, these impacts generate static charges on the particles and on the tubing walls. While our tubing’s are made from plastics they still store and build this charge, electric charges actually tend to build on poor conductors (unless you are using anti-static tubing)! One only needs to rub a balloon on their head to prove non-conductive materials easily build and store a static charge! It also does not matter what size engine you are running, under the right conditions, static can be an issue with any size motor… Just the airframe moving through the air can generate static! So the static can build up to high levels on one part of the aircraft, with no way of dissipating. When it gets to a certain level it will arc to the nearest conductive surface, interfering dangerously with the radio control electronics on the aircraft and other low voltage systems. This can and does cause "glitches" in the control system, either shutting down the receiver momentarily, or sending random control commands to the servos or ECU. I have personally experienced an RX reboot on our turbine test stand when static discharged into one of the RX antennas. That is not to say everyone will experience this problem. It only affects a very small minority, the “perfect storm” scenario. Also, it seems only certain receivers behave badly when receiving an electrostatic discharge, I have found numerous reports of static issues related to Spektrum receivers, but issues have also been seen in most other makes of receiver including Futaba and Airtronics. Same with the ECU, some engine brands are more sensitive than others when it comes to static. Taking the time to organize the layout during install can eliminate static generated gremlins from occurring. That being said, based on the image in the initial post, here is what would concern me immediately…. 1 – (Lets assume the ECU is firmly secured, this would be a must do!) The ECU is completely surrounded by static generators. I can see at least half a dozen ways static could find a discharge path into the ECU. Throttle lead laying right against a metal fuel fitting on the tank would be the least resistive path I see. There is also a 6-4mm fitting between the pump and the UAT which is very close to the starter/burner wires from the turbine however, every one of those fuel lines has the potential to arc the ECU. The ECU is sitting directly under the fuel tank fitting and Tee. A small leak in the tank, fittings, UAT or tubing could take the ECU out. In practice, we want to try and keep the fuel system separated from all wiring and electronics. And, if possible, avoid crossings of wires and fuel tubing’s. If they must cross, leave a few inches of separation. Keep in mind things are going to move around with G force, consider where things will move under loads! Lets move over to the tray area… After graduating high school, I spent several years working in a car stereo installation shop doing high end, big $$$ system installs. Pretty, clean, organized installations was mandatory. This carried over into my models very early on. I admit; I am anal when it comes to my installations, however…. Layout / placement of the components in the aircraft is far more important than pretty! “Rats Nest” works just fine…. Although tracking down problems can be a chore. Looking at the component tray, here is my “donts” 2 – Lets back up to the subject of static for a second. Remember, plastic does indeed propagate static. With that knowledge, the fuel/smoke pump placement should not be on the same plastic laminated tray that the RX is mounted to. In this scenario, the pump placement should be where the ECU is currently located, ECU placed where the pumps are. RF from fuel pumps should always be considered during install but our 2.4 systems today are not nearly as susceptible to this type of interference 72mhz was. Fuel lines near and above the RX is a huge don’t! Beyond the static potential, one small leak could take your RX out. There is no separation of fuel lines and servo leads to the RX. The following point will be a bit more opinionated based on my experience. This topic has been covered numerous times with no resolute but I will at least pass on my thoughts …… 3 – Fuel Shutoff Valve – Placement of the shutoff valve should be on the suction side, not pressure side of the pump. Should you have a run-away ECU or perform an emergency shut off at the valve while the pump is running, it is possible to burst the line (pumping fuel all over the inside of the airframe) if the valve is placed on the pressure side. It HAS happened, more than once! Placed on the suction side, a valve closure will immediately starve the pump of fuel. There has been argument that Festo fittings will leak under suction never to use them on the suction side. NONSENSE! The Festo quick star fittings are rated for about -20psi. I have never had one leak. Square cuts of the tubing is key for good seal in the QS fittings. 4 – Antenna placement – does not look to be ideal placement in this install but my concern would be location in relation the fuel lines. I have not flown Futaba in several years; I would leave further comment to those more familiar with this equipment. 5 – Safety Wire – I am going to agree with Voy in that if you use the correct fittings and tubing, you are generally safe without having to wrap. Personally, I wrap everything from the pressure side of the pump back as a safety measure. And as Voy pointed out, you should always double wind the wire around the fitting then twist to provide uniform pressure on the tubing. A single wrap is actually worse than none! It is a bit odd that the smoke system fittings in this install has been secured but not the fuel? This is all the time I can afford today on this subject. Will be happy to list more as time allows, please feel free to share your thoughts and tips!! I’ll compile a list from this thread and add it to our tech section on the website after the info matures here. Todd |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Just remembering a buddy with a T-Rex 500 Heli a few years ago. He crashed it twice to what he thought was a radio issue. We spent hours trying to find the source of his glitches. Installed a completely different TX/RX and had the same problem. Turned out to be static being generated by the tail. Both, the belt and plastic blades were building static, when the charge got big enough.... ZAP.
A quick Google (trex 500 static) reveals many with this same issue.... |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: lov2flyrc Just remembering a buddy with a T-Rex 500 Heli a few years ago. He crashed it twice to what he thought was a radio issue. We spent hours trying to find the source of his glitches. Installed a completely different TX/RX and had the same problem. Turned out to be static being generated by the tail. Both, the belt and plastic blades were building static, when the charge got big enough.... ZAP. A quick Google (trex 500 static) reveals many with this same issue.... Todd, very good point on #3 about the shut off .. and yes, there are different concerns on the suction vs pressure sides of the fuel system .. as to static, the bottom line really is to assume that there is a constant build and discharge of it in any model. The heli example is perfect. Actually, any heli especially with helts generates tons of static. Ever see a set of belt driven turbine heli mechanics in the dark ? :D lol ... My JetCat Ph3t looks like a fireworks show coming off of the belts !! .. the reason its not an issue is because most of the helicopter is grounded via the frames, bolts, etc so there is not arc or "jump" into the electronics .. they run just fine like this this brings up also the idea of grounding parts of the fuel system together to a common ground .. basically giving some areas susceptible to high static build to have a discharge path of lesser resistance. also , a lot of static can be built up in the fuel system when fueling a plane on a dry paved runway. Its happen plenty of times where an engine dies because of a ECU reset the moment the wheels leave the ground .. In this case its actually a good idea to just pour some water on the ground that the plane is sitting on and under the fueling jug when filling it up .. keep the info coming guys! .. its nice to see productive POSITIVE and PRODUCTIVE threads on RCU every once in a while ;) :D :D Voy |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
On the subject of static, I used a wire with a loop connecter in my Ultra Bandit and connected all the fuel tanks, uat and grounded them to the pipe.
Static d/c is one big hand wavey witch hunt. And it can kill your stuff. Yikes! |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Hi Todd
Agree with everything but point 3. What would be the pressure rate from a pump during start-up, working at arround 1V or even less (for P80-P160)? Maybe 1,5 bar? Inever tried, but guess it won't exceed the top pressure rate from these fittings that is rated at 10Bar. If an install should blew under this circustances, then something would not be ok, either in the fittings or pipes. Also if it is an improper install for pressure, also is for vacuum. Major (if not all), turbine manufacturers recomend to install the solenoid in the pressure side and many don't even supply or recomend a fuel shut-off valve. Those fittings and pipes are rated for air, not fuel, but I guess that this works in our benifit in the suction side, cause our fuel is more as dense than air and is incompressible for the pressure side, unlike air. I never used any reducer or fitting in the suction side, to reduce the chance of cavitation or air income, but this is just my personnel choice for install, not saying it is best or worse;) regards Nuno |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: jetnuno Hi Todd Agree with everything but point 3. What would be the pressure rate from a pump during start-up, working at arround 1V or even less (for P80-P160)? Maybe 1,5 bar? Inever tried, but guess it won't exceed the top pressure rate from these fittings that is rated at 10Bar. If an install should blew under this circustances, then something would not be ok, either in the fittings or pipes. Also if it is an improper install for pressure, also is for vacuum. Major (if not all), turbine manufacturers recomend to install the solenoid in the pressure side and many don't even supply or recomend a fuel shut-off valve. Those fittings and pipes are rated for air, not fuel, but I guess that this works in our benifit in the suction side, cause our fuel is more as dense than air and is incompressible for the pressure side, unlike air. I never used any reducer or fitting in the suction side, to reduce the chance of cavitation or air income, but this is just my personnel choice for install, not saying it is best or worse;) regards Nuno Agreed, during ramp pressures are low and an instant closure of the valve should not be an issue. Pump pressure at higher RPM can be significant however, well over 6 bar on some engines. Instant closure of a valve at this pressure will burst a line instantly. As I said, It has happened.... more than once! The first time we experienced this was a runaway ECU. Something failed in the ECU during start sequence and full voltage was sent to the pump. The first reaction is to close the fuel valve which resulted in a burst line, fuel spraying everywhere. Only way to stop it was to yank the battery out of the ECU. Dangerous situation! Had the manual valve been on the suction side, fuel flow stops immediately! In the USA, we are required by the AMA to have a manual fuel shutoff valve in addition to the ECU controlled solenoid. It is also a myth that QS fittings are "air" only, Festo rates them for Compressed air, vacuum and liquids. I have a chart supplied by festo with the specs for each ... I'll see if I can dig it up. |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
Some good install pictures here.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_51...tm.htm#5117362 |
RE: An Exercise in Install Practice....
ORIGINAL: felker14 Some good install pictures here. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_51...tm.htm#5117362 It is amazing to see the methodical isolation of fuel system and electronics in every single example shown in that thread. Simply well thought out installations that leave little room for error.... |
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