Is it worth adding a gyro?
 

Hey guys I just wanted to see what the general thoughts are about adding a gyro to our jets

There are 5 of use flying falcon 120/ Navy Cats at our field and one guy just started useing this gyro below

Bl_3grc gyroBL-3GRC Gyro/Contoller Amazing new product


We typically have gusty and cross winds. But when he turns this thing on he can land way smoother and slower than the rest of usEven in the air he dose not have the delta wobbling even when 3 of us fly by together you can see his is way smotherWhile this $80 gyro works great for him it doesn't look like a jet gyro in ny mindSo if you like them which are you using?*

Is it simple?*Thanks Mike

I wont own a jet without a gyro anymore. I love the 75$ eagle tree guardian.

Totally worth it, get the cortex, great unit especially for the price

Can you guys post links of the ones you use. My fear is the gyro not handling the servo load. Ie the anos needed for the larger jet 200oz type servos

Well this was certainly an opportune post. I only had a chat regarding using flight controllers on planes two days ago. I already have 2 Quanum units but haven't had them flying as yet. I think the more up to date solid state gear would be better than infrared units so bought a couple of the HobbyKing stabilizers. I haven't fitted them as yet. I was waiting until I got a little feedback on their use. I also wanted to experiment with a tiny helicopter type gyro to see if it would be of any use.

One problem I see is using cheaper servos or even the more expensive type if the stabilizer is set rather too extremely. Overuse ofthe servo in question could well lead to premature breakdown or overheating. I watched a YouTube video where the flyer has his elevator and ailerons going mad.

You've given me a little incentive to get to work and fit them, thanks.

This is an interesting question and something tht guys have been talking about with units like the Guardian, iGyro, the Cortex, and others. One thing to consider with these units is that you are breaking the direct link between your receiver and your servos. You are now depending on the software (and hardware) in the unit to do what you want it to do, and even more so, when you hit the switch to "turn them off" in flight, you are asking them if you could please have control of your aircraft back. I have seen more than one occurrence of when the answer to that request is "no, you can't" - with predictable results.

We build UAV autopilots in my lab, and even after hundreds of flights, and many, many hours of testing, we still get occurrences of undesired behavior that we have to track down.

The technology is great, no doubt, but you have to realize that reliability is an issue. Personally, I'd only put a "proven" gyro on rudder (and nosewheel steering) and/or ailerons, but that's just me...

Oh, and I'd NEVER put any electronics by Hobbyking in the critical control path of a jet, NEVER EVER...

I have put about 175 flights on my Modelbau Tornado with no gyro and 22 flights on my Ultima-tun equipped with a Demon Cortex gyro. While the Tornado might be considered a trainer or beginner jet the Ultima is easier to fly with the gyro installed. So much so that I will probably spend another 350.00 and put one in the Tornado. I will be installing gyros in any new jets I build. Most pilots flying turbine or edf jets at our field have started using Demons and are very happy with the results.
Steve

You can run (some of) the power directly to the servos, rather than through the gyro itself.
On my iGyro, for two JR8911 elevator servos I separated out the power from the signal, having the power supplied directly from a JR1222 PowerSafe receiver output, where the signal is coming from the iGyro itself. This prevents the iGyro from possibly being overloaded.

I expect that most gyros have a common power bus across the board so handling the load should not be a problem, I think that servo's current draw is so low you'd struggle to fry the gyro with it unless maybe you have a giant jet with multiple servos per surface.

As I understand it from demon in this scenario you could potentially use more than one gyro to handle the load.

You can definitely seperate the power busses. I think what Bob is saying is that you never turn the gyro "off" in flight. Even when you switch the gyro off the servo signals are still going through the gyro, either the hardware or a combination of the hardware and the software depending on the way the gyro is designed.

I have used the BL-3GRC on an EDF. It works well but even the designer recommends a separate servo power bus for any decent sized model.

you have already answered your own question !

I suppose that in a perfect world they would be great. But from the comments here the problem of "asking" for control is a problem I hadn't considered. I assumed that because it was the much simpler of options permission would be easier to obtain. It would have to be a fault of some description to lock you out. Another item in line to go wrong is something to be avoided.

Perhaps I'll make sure my tests are in a plane I could stand to lose. Which one is the question. All of them have taken too much time to build to simply throw away. My end result, if successful I intended to install in my Penguin. Maybe not such a good idea. I've spent too much on it to be told by a $50.00 item to get lost. :-) That took the wind out of my sails. It looks like the Penguin's stabilizer will have to be me.

I think perhaps you're being rather harsh on HobbyKing's product though. They sell many items sold by the more sophisticated retailers. The Quanum and even the NAZAs now. I see the main stumbling block as their God Awful customer Service, or lack of it. :-)

I land in cross winds and knife edge a few feet off the runway without a gyro. Doesnt seem hard even with scale jets.
Anyone who installs a gryo be on notice, you have 0 bragging rights and have NO business criticizing anyone for anything such as flying or hard landings.

Gosh I know a few people who run the mouths then install gyros, especially cortex. Just amazes me the lack of brain cells.

If you install a gyro and are cool to others, then go for it. Why not use a crutch to help out with the basics?

Personally I will never use a gyro. When I was new I tried to use one to stop tail wag, I then removed it and just got used to the wag. Just learn to fly else you will always have to depend on this crap.

Just my .02

Obviously most of the time these types of units aren't going to be a problem, but you do have to realize that when you add one of these gyros, stabilizers, autopilots, powerboxes, etc., you're adding a single point of failure into the critical path. Personally I care not to do that on my jets, but if you do, you need to realize what you are doing and make sure you are confident in the unit (i.e., its been *thoroughly* wrung out).

On the Hobby King side, I do buy a lot of their stuff - but the failure rate of their electronics is way to high to use them in a jet - IMHO.

I do sort of agree with essyou35 - although he may have stated it a bit more harshly than I would have. :rolleyes:

Bob

When we fly scale planes we want them to look as scale as possible. Well when I see full size fighter fly I don't see them getting thrown all around the sky by the wind like our models do. So in order to make the plane fly more scale gyros can help allot with the wind gusts.

You also just said people like Ali,Pablo,Dustin and Peter Goldsmith to name a few need a gyro as a crutch to fly........ Needless to say you have no clue what you are talking about.

Anytime you want to give me some flying lessons im all ears but it will need to wait until after TopGun is over :)

Also you should work on how you talk to people online. Someday you might go to an event and have to see them face to face and running your mouth like that can have adverse effects.

BTW here is really good read on Gyros and using them in our planes by Peter Goldsmith. http://www.franktiano.com/TopGunFrameset.htm

There are a few larger scale jets that can benefit. The reason the jets get thrown around in some cases is because the wing loadings are so low. My old FEJ f-16 was heavy it would buck any wind and flew very scale. Granted after I started flying my floary viper glider my skills suffered, which is what will happen if one uses a cortex.

I'm not trying to give anyone lessons, but if someone gives me crap about how I fly, then I find out they have a gyro in some floaty jet, I am going to call them out on it.

Also, I am not running my mouth I am simply stating a fact. If you use a cortex to knife edge or land in a cross wind then I dont care, but dont say anything about my less than perfect one I did myself.

Adverse results? Like what? Going to sabotage my FEJ? Be specific here I am thinking this sounds like a threat?

Well, it certainly seems that the hobby has become somewhat different over the years. Living in a small Australian country town with no really keen RCers I guess I must have missed the transition to the type of RCer we see above. Once upon a time RCers and prior to those, simply Model Aircraft Enthusiasts, we were a friendly bunch or people willing to help others and having an open mind to new and unknown gizmos and gadgets being introduced into the trade.

If a pilot did things a little different we certainly would ostracize him or call him names. To each their own and good on them for being individuals. I don't recall anyone telling another that they're wrong for using a different method than anyone else and this also stretched to the building side of things. Should a builder wish to use a different glue to the one other's used then what did it matter? What really mattered was the fact we were all in the same hobby. Being different was welcomed because how else would we ever discover new parts and accessories. Nobody could afford to buy them all to try out. If we all bought a different make or model we told as many as possible the good and bad aspects of the item. We never abused anyone for doing things his way.

I suggest Essyou tries to accept the fact that everyone is entitled to do things the way he sees fit, not the way he sees things. As was wisely pointed out by Gunradd, you will find the hobby a lonely thing if you speak the way you've just displayed. I certainly wouldn't wish to fly with you, if you showed that attitude on the flight line or anywhere else for that matter. I'd suggest you calm down and start accepting the fact that we are all different and not the same as you, or like the things you like.. Think whatever you like but try a little self control when you speak. Nobody likes to hear they're wrong.

Just to clarify my position, I do use gyros on some of my planes for the reasons that Gunradd suggests and I don't see anything wrong with that - in competition or otherwise as long as the rules allow it. It definitely makes some planes fly more scale.

On the other hand, using a Cortex 3 axis stabilization system on a Tornado or the like because it makes it "easier to fly" IS a crutch and new jet flyers would most likely benefit from spending time flying without the benefit of the gyro to get more, and better, experience.

Have fun at TopGun Gunradd!

Bob

Oh dear, this is how wars start :-) I'm sure Gunradd wasn't making any "threats" He mentioned "adverse results" I assume to mean you could well receive a swift kick in the pants or maybe a good telling off for dictating what people should and shouldn't do. I certainly never saw any threats in his post. Perhaps you are too worked up about others thinking differently to yourself. Try reading what people write, not what you read between the lines. I'm sure he was simply giving you good advice. Take it that way and there's no reason for anyone to get upset.

Sheesh, all this over a tiny box in a plane. It's not worth the grief.

This "tiny box" in a jet can turn a new or poor pilot into an expert. Fine. But if that same person boasts about it or criticizes others, which happens a lot around here, that is what I have an issue with. And that is clear from the start. If you use a gyro, take that into account when you criticize others is what I am saying.

I've been flying jets since 1998, started with ducted fan then in 2000 turbines. In all those years I have never had a gyro in a jet until a couple years back in my bobcat xl. However, the bobcat only has it because it was in there from the guy I bought it from. There were no instructions I could find for the gyro and it made my rudders do weird things on the ground so I unplugged it but never bothered to remove it and now my rudders and nose gear are just straight into the receiver. Everyone with a bobcat xl has told me "you need a gyro for when the main gear come down" yet I don't have one functioning. I have a little crow and that's it. Never had an issue in cross wind or otherwise with any of my jets. I know many people that used them on nose gear steering and that's okay, however, I do personally feel that gyros should NOT be allowed in ANY form of competition where flying is judged. I guess I'm old school where I believe in the person flying the airplane. having said that, I really don't care if somebody wants to use a gyro, but the question at hand is, is it worth adding a gyro? 16 years of flying jets without one says to me that no, it's not worth it.

Of course that is just my opinion.

Just a comment: I saw a post somewhere not too long ago where the poster was berating people who use Rates and Expo. This hobby has become very expensive. Having backup in a case of dumb thumbs and putting a several grand into the ground might be nice. That's why I have considered using a Gyro.

Bob
I agree 100%. However, I am helping a "Fred" with his Electra and "Fred" has been flying for years. Now "Fred" is not afraid of crashing his models it's part of the game if you ask him.
We installed a Cortex in his jet because "Fred" is blind in one eye and in his 80"s, the Cortex gives "Fred" a lot more time to figure out what the model is doing and it gives me a sense of security when I'm helping "Fred".

Bob

A gyro on the nosewheel is a god send. Totally reduces your work load on the tarmac. And it makes for a great start of a great flight!

From my understanding, if the 3 axis gyro has an inflight failure you will loose elev, rudd, & ailerons.. There is no recovery procedure for that! For me it is worth it to fly a little less stable jet for 20 years then to have a perfectly stable-flying jet possibly fail after 100 (arbitrary number) flights or so due to a gyro. With all that being said, I LOVE the 3 axis gyro concept! We also need someone to continue testing them so they will advance & hopefully become bullet-proof one day, so THANK YOU gyro flyers, keep up the great work! They are very pleasing to watch.

Ahh ... you macho jet guys are all washed up with your ideas of gyros, powerboxes, back-up batteries, high-torque servos, s-bus, fancy 18 channel 2.4g $2000 radios, dual receivers, 12 channel receivers, and all that other crap. You don't need any of that stuff if you just stick with the basic control line method. Then, your only worry would be accidently letting go of the line or getting dizzy. ;)

I tend to fly by myself way up here in Northern Canada so I'll admit I get nervous at the big jet events. It affects my comfort level. Things I usually breeze through get a bit difficult when the pressure of 100+ people behind me all watching comes into play. So I'm going to use a Cortex to take some of the edge off. I completely understand that some "veteran" pilots think of this as cheating but frankly I'm not out to impress. I'm out to fly and enjoy it. End of story.

I just picked up a Cortex for my F-16 1/8th Tams and I was hoping you guys could tell me what kind of gain you are using on your cortex to start out? I'm using a Jeti DC-16 radio as well. Just a baseline so that I can get used to it would be great. :) Thanks for anything you can tell me.

I think for the reasons mentioned by PepperPete and others, there is a good market amongst jet flyers for gyros.
This has to be a good thing for the hobby. The more innovation the better.

Just look at RC helis. It would be hard to find a top end flybarred machine these days.

I have never used a gyro as the planes I fly dont need them. Never say never though :)

Paul.

You make an interesting point Airplanes400.

I like all the fancy stuff you mention, but I guess everyone has a technological comfort zone they sit in.
I am still trying to work mine out :)




Paul.

Bob,

Thank you for helping out good ole "one eyed Fred". Very nice of you to lend a hand. I highly doubt anyone is going to give "Fred" any grief for using a cortex. Even if he was strutting his stuff, the poor man is nearly blind. Good use of technology to help out a human being. God bless you.

Well to be honest, I am going to put the Demon cortex in my P-47 (Top Flight Giant scale). Been doing a lot of research and everyone that has one not only on Jets and 3D aircraft are having great success with them. Looking at youtube and flying giants website there are a lot of setup videos and how to's about the Demon Cortex. All of them will tell you that the 3 axis gyro does not fly the airplane for you but gives you a "Locked in" feel and allows the plane to handle wind better and crisp stops when you are coming out of an aerobatic maneuver.

That is if the gyro is setup right. Some pilot's don't like it because they feel that they are fighting the gyro. It is all in the setup of the gains and how you are going to fly.

I personally think that it is way past time for gyro technology to advance to fixed wing aircraft much like they have in the helicopter arena. For those that think it is not needed that's ok. No-one is forcing one on you. But for those that want them more power to you. I myself want one.

Regards
Glenn

Has there been any confirmed crashes due to a 3 axis gyro failure? If so, how does it fail, Is there any built in fail-safes where if the unit malfunctions the gyro inputs are locked out & tx-rx inputs are still available? Doesn't sound that hard to do.
I'm itching to experiment with one, maybe I'll put it in a foamy, then move it to my Boomerang, then something nice if I get the warm & fuzzies.

I've been flying model airplanes for a good while. I've been flying jets for a little over a year. I have a demon cortex set up in both of my jets and I'm very happy with the results. To each his own. What difference does it make anyway?

Pepper,
Call Esprit Model in Palm Bay, Florida. Talk to Danny; he can help you. They are also the distributor for Jeti so that will help too.
Good luck.

i fly 3axis gyro(s) for a while now, more helpful then a 2800 dollar transmitters, that is for sure. Actually some of them programmed right you would not even need expo anymore and could fly with 6 chanels basic straight forward Transmitters, but always good to have an option to calibrate centers and endpoints to prevent unwanted drifting. I have some good results so far with Acro up to 30cc and i am happy with them, Jet's is not my territory anyways so i cant tell anything there, but learned a lot from flybarless Heli programming and that helped a lot
Some one ask me should i Gyro ?? yupp, why not, what works is always good.

I think that there is a misconception that gyros take over the job of flying, I'm new to gyros and I can tell you that is not my experience, they have the ability to make almost UN-flyable planes flyable and they make everything more predictable.

If you are against using them for aerobatics then you must also be against any kind of radio mixes, also banning them from competition only forces competition pilots to fly easier aircraft, I'm happy to make the small concession of electronic help to see more unusual jets fly well at all levels, the yak 130 that won jwm was chosen to be modeled because of how well it would translate to our scale in terms of its flight performance and i'm all for that, I will be buying the JL version but I no longer want to see jet competitions dominated by f16's and L39's because its to difficult to make an f18 fly as well.

I'm on here quite often and have yet to read any reports of gyros costing people their planes, I used to ride bicycles quite a bit and there was a rule of thumb that you take the cost of the bike and divide it by 10 and that is how much you spend on a chain, the point being that generally more expensive is better, the same should apply to gyros, if you are flying something cheap/safe that you don't care about go ahead buy a cheap gyro, if your flying something that could potential be dangerous and is expensive think twice about all of your equipment.

Finally there is a certain amount of skill and learning that comes with setting up complex electronic systems, some credit must be given to pilots/builders that take this task and execute it well

I have been flying with gyros for a long time. I fly 1/4 scale turbine helos with multiblades and without the assistance of gyros it’s very hard to get them fly well and almost impossible with gusty conditions. All my large helos are remarkable how well they fly with the assistance of gyros. They fly like a dream and doesn’t matter that much how gusty it is at the field.

On my jets, I have been flying with simple gyros just for the nose wheel with some great results! Part of last year and this year I decided to fit 3 axis gyros on all my jets. I started with my large SM Viper by fitting the Powerbox Royal SRS in which the iGyro is embedded. The Viper was always a great flyer without the gyros assistance but once I tried the iGyro it was remarkable how well the Viper did, crisp and the pure perfection of flying. I never saw my Viper tracking so well in all maneuvers. Then I decided to put the same PB Royal SRS on my SM A10 which is about 77lbs wet. OMG I never seen flying so well, a pure joy every second of flying. Then I decided to fit on my BVM Bobcat Composite a BD Cortex…. out of this world a pure joy to fly. Currently, I am in the process to try the ET Guardian on my BVM Electra as I flew my friend’s Electra with the Guardian and I was so impress with the Guardian too.

Why I have 3 axis gyros on my jets it’s because it make them fly so well with perfect tracking on all maneuvers and I simply love it. It’s so much enjoyable to fly something that flies like a dream and you are not fighting others aspects such weather or aerodynamics. You need to understand how they work and how to setup them right and you will never fly without them. And yes I can turn off all gyros anytime I want by flipping a switching.

I will fly test the Guardian next weekend!

Regards,

Gonzalo

Has anyone seen increased wear or other issues with their servos, especially aileron? Seems to me they are moving 100 times more with the gyro enabled.

Hi Stu48,

I wonder if the 48 relates to your birth year. If so you beat me out of the egg by a year :-) Who the hell cares who uses what. This hobby can allow anyone to have whatever the heck he likes in an aircraft. If someone finds it makes his plane fly better, good on him. My only beef is if they are sneakily used in some competitive flight, but there are people who check the planes before the event I assume. Never having taken part in any events myself.

Let it go guys, the people who don't like them, don't bloody use them. If you like them, tell the world, it's your right. I just don't think anyone should condemn anyone else should they wish to use one. If it saves an aircraft from drilling holes in a runway, great. if it makes a one eyed 80 year old or a 16 year old boy to be more relaxed in his flying, great. Just don't put rules on who can or can't do what with his own property.

If anyone says he's flying without one and he is, so bloody what. Stop being so nosey about other people's business. These "I don't mind if you use one, BUT" people need to remember this isn't a life or death pastime, it's a hobby, they should treat it as one.

I haven't used one as yet, but intend to. Should anyone make fun of me or condemn me for using one to my face. I'd pop one on him on the spot, then laugh and get on with what I enjoy, flying. Not because I have to, but because I want to. You figure out the difference. One thing I've just thought of, whoever I wish to "pop one on" will have to get on his knees, it's awkward trying to pop, in a wheelchair :-)
Enjoy yourselves in a way which you enjoy. Get to my and Stu48's age and you start realising there ain't enough time to be miserable.

Stu49

Mr Matt is right but only if the gain is turned up too high. There's a great video on Youtube with a guy trying to fly a plane with a stabiliser in it. The darned thing is up and down about 30 times a minute. It's a good video only in that it shows the difference between not enough gain and too much. Then again if anyone wishes to burn out his servos, it's OK by me. As long as his plane doesn't hit me on the way down, or my plane.:-)

As for getting upset about the stabilizer getting burned out and the plane crashing, what about a receiver burning out and crashing. The same effect isn't it. I do agree it doubles the chance of something burning out. In almost 60 years of flying I've never had a receiver burn out. Then again for the first 20 years I never had a receiver. I couldn't afford one until I joined the Navy and flying wasn't the done thing.

I spent most of my time on a bloody aircraft carrier and not once did anyone join the ship who wanted to use the flight deck for RC. I now wish I'd been flying. Imagine taking off and landing on a real carrier at sea. I haven't a clue if it would have been allowed???

Anyway, enough of arguing about it. I might just ask my nurse to bring in the Bixler so I can fit a brand new stabilizer I have. It's handy having a 15 drawer cabinet alongside the bed containing a mass of parts. I'm waiting for it to drop through the floor from being overloaded. One drawer for tools, one for charging, and parts in the rest. My wife asked what it would be worth should I decide to kick the bucket, I estimated $4,000.00 and that's being conservative. So if ever you wish to pay me a midnight visit to relieve me of my cabinet, don't bother, the cabinet is too damned heavy, I'm a light sleeper and I doubt if you'd be able to get anywhere near me due to my absolutely evil little dog who'll relieve you of your ankle in seconds. Should you get past her I have a surprise for you, don't ask what it is, but it's definitely not a kiss. :-)
Have fun flying guys.......... Stu