RE: JPO Statement
 

Tam,

In no way have I intended ANY of my comments as a personal attack on you. I am sorry you took them that way. I am however a strong proponent of the JPO. I feel that our voices combined carry a whole lot more weight than seperate.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Maybe we need to get rid of AMA and find other insurance! I am trying to get my waiver and my plane is almost ready to fly. I am about ready to tell the AMA to take a leap and fly without their insurance etc. I think that they will regulate this to death until we stop flying jets. If the number of buyers drop off then the manufacturers will either have to increase prices or go out of business......


Anyone want to buy a ready to fly Super Reaper that is new? I think that I need to go to another hobby that does not have these problems ( Like Slot cars etc!).

Great AMA...... You are going to kill a hobby that I have been in for over 28 years......


Way to go! [:@]

RE: JPO Statement
 

Okay - I've got a few questions fo David and/or anyone else who wants to reply...

There is always this talk about "You need the JPO so that your voice is heard, and any rules that get made, are made with your knowledge & input". Well, didn't we just go through a situation a year or so ago, in which the turbine pilots who had ponied up their JPO membership gave input on proposed new rules for turbines ... and if memory serves me correctly, and if the info I read 2nd or 3rd hand is correct, then the AMA pushed all the JPO proposals aside so that they could instead concentrate on some weird "Do a flight demo on the day before a sanctioned event if you're lucky" idea that supposedly came from just one individual ? If this is in fact true, then the claims about how we need to join the JPO in order to have a say in the rules just kinda went out the window, coz no matter what our input may be, we have the demonstrated history (reinforced by the current activities) that one or two individuals can subvert anything that the official SIG does.

Next - if you really do want people to join the JPO - would it not be a much better strategy to make people believe that this is a great organisation that they want to join, rather than presenting it as the sole keeper of priviledged info that you must join if you don't want to be kept in the dark about the activities in the parent organisation that you are already a paid member of. In other words - maybe if you share information freely and show what the JPO is doing, and you may get more members that say "Hey - these guys really are doing a great job - lemme join up". I'm talking about being inclusive rather than exclusive.


In another thread, you commented on how it should be a no-brainer for people to log the required hours. I'd have to say that this kinda depends on the fine print. Consider the following scenario:

- Turbine newbie does his waiver work in eraly Oct.
- Ama sends him his waiver at the end of October.
- Newbie, being responsible, contacts his buddy who is an experienced turbine pilot and arranges for the experienced guy to do the test flight and then some buddy-box work.
- Schedules are hard to sync up, so it's mid November before the two guys manage to get the same weekend day off. They set off for the field and do the test flight. Some changes are needed, so only one flight is put on that day, and the newbie didn't even get to touch the sticks. Off home to do the rework.
- Newbie is still dependent on the experienced guy's help and his schedule so it's another two weeks (end of November) before they go flying again and this time newbie gets to actually touch the controls, and put in 4 flights on the buddy box. Cool - ge now has 4 of his needed 10 flights per year.
- Being conservative (he's trying to be safe, like we told him to), he elects to do at least one more outing on the Buddy Box before going solo. Two weeks later (now mid-December) he & his buddy again get the same day off, so he gets some more buddy box time plus a first solo, and he's now up to 8 flights - almost the amount he needs if he is not to lose his waiver when the year-end rolls around.
- He now has 2 weeks left and he's gotta fit in 2 more flights before year's end. Being late in December, the weather sucks. It's freezing cold, kinda overcast, and he can't get his buddy to go out with him to help. Well, doing the waiver over again is gonna be a royal PITA, so he decides that rather than play it safe like he really would like to, he's gonna go out and fly those needed flights. In the process, he flies outside his comfort zone and those frozen fingers just don't react as delicately as he would like, and he ends up ploughing the aircraft into the pits.

In other words, if there's no fine-print, exclusions, or whatever, that cater for the fact that the guy may only have started flying very shortly before year's end, this "safety rule" can actually encourage unsafe practices rather than prevent them.

Gordon

[Edit: typo]

RE: JPO Statement
 

Well stated Steve.

RE: JPO Statement
 

I was going to reserve any more comment until the new regs hit the street. However, I wish to state something very appropriate here. Guys, we are the AMA, it is up to us "The Membership" to rectify the situation. We have the power to replace the EC, we also have the ability to participate in the mechanics of change. It 's all up to us. I for one am going to print the JPO document tonight and put it in the mail with my $25.00 and keep the faith. I just hope that we can create and implement a comprehensive and structured safety and education program for the turbine sector of the hobby (not subject to the whims of a few individuals).

Bill Adkins
AMA L6243

RE: JPO Statement
 

As quoted from Steve Elzey's JPO announcement....Quote>" A vote was taken and the proposal was accepted as the new regulations."<End quote.

To me, this sounded like a done deal until Dave Brown got involved. Let me ask some of you more savy AMA guys....Does the AMA President have absolute veto power??? If so, why and this needs to be changed. If not, then what makes Dave Brown think that he can do this???

To me this smacks of a Dictatorship rather than a Democracy. What can Dave Brown do to intimidate the EC into changing their minds and votes??? What if the EC tells Dave Brown that a vote was taken and the majority ruled...PERIOD!!! Now what???

This would be a good time to see what kind of moral fiber the EC really has. Will they stick to their guns or cave???

Jeeeeeeeezzzzz!!! All I want to do is to have fun flying my model airplanes....All of this extra crap takes all of the fun out of it. [:'(]

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

Call or email your AMA reps! I have sent emails to both our district VP and the AMA president both stating my displeasure. I have also touched base with our associate vp. Bottom line is this is an elected committee, they are our voices but they can't funtion properly without our input. This also applies to the JPO, the officers need to know what we want and what we think. The JPO and the EC came up with a set of rules that tries to protect us and keep out hobby safe. Granted not even all the jet guys will agree but the JPO is still the special interest group recognized by the AMA for turbine issues. These guys work to help our hobby and without their efforts we will have no control over our own hobby. Some of the people who dont agree with it now want to start all over, guess who loses - WE ALL DO!

RE: JPO Statement
 

FWIW, I would recommend that we refrain from any personnel attack on DB. It is not going to help our course.

I you guys will do what I've been doing since I heard the news (call all the AMA VP's, not just the VP for your area and let him/her know your feeling). The phone numbers are located in your AMA magazine under each VP's column.

Just for the records, I would like to thank those JPO officials and the turbine committee members for their efforts / hard work.

Regards

Ben

RE: JPO Statement
 

Patrick,

I may have missed something, just what was the BV incident ?

Bob

RE: JPO Statement
 

Ben,

I know that until the facts come out most of this is speculation....Speculation or not I still know that 2+2=4. To give DB the benefit of the doubt I'll throw in another speculation....Maybe he didn't want to go forward with the new regs until the legal gurus got a good look at it. Speculation or not, all of this secretive B/S just throws more fuel on the fire. What ever happened to looking someone in the eye and saying what needed to be said. The bottom line is that WE (as a membership) elected him. HE is accountable to us. (The AMA membership) Why doesn't DB just put an end to all of this and tell us the skinny???? What is so wrong with that??? As a matter of fact....That would be the right thing to do.

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

Gordon,

I can't answer all of your questions and if I am not mistaken the timing issue of the waiver process was addressed with the rules. The intent of the recert process is not to eliminate the guy that just got his waiver but to insure that at least a minimum level of experience is maintained. I'm not fighting for JPO members here, join the JPO or not it's your decision but like it or not the JPO does have at least some of the AMA's ear, the larger the membership the louder voice we have. Sure there is not a blow by blow commentary posted on the JPO website, or newsletters detailing every conversation that JPO had with the AMA but answer me this.... Does your congressman call you up with every issue he is taking before Congress? Does your senator post all of the meetings he is attending on a website, does your local board of aldermen call you to ask your opinion on every issue? Do you guys really think there is some sort of glory in the thankless efforts that some of these guys have put into this? These guys are jet modellers just like you are that enjoy their hobby, they want to see jet flying continue for a long time to come because they enjoy flying just as much as you do. The new rules have been kept under wraps because we have been told to do so. They were not posted on the JPO website because I was told not to post them. They are all there waiting for me to add the link to the front page and as soon as I am told to do so they will go up.

RE: JPO Statement
 

I just got my waiver in October. I am one of only a couple guys in KY that have a waiver. I believe I am the ONLY one in my area (50 mile radius). Due to the weather it is unlikely that I will make my first turbine flight until next year. The closest TCD is about 80 miles away. It took me from April until October to complete the waiver process due to conflicting schedules with the TCD. I don't like the idea of flying at events as I feel they are an unsafe flying environment for a newbie. There are just too many distractions. Based on my conversations with other local pilots who are getting into turbines I believe my situation represents a significant portion of the "club" jet pilots. Where does this leave me?

If flying a prop/DF plane is sufficient to get the initial waiver wouldn't it be sufficient for the recert? Who would have to witness/sign off on this recert?

I grow weary of the continued restrictions the AMA seeks to place on its members in the name of maintaining insurance. I have seen ZERO evidence that any of these restrictions does in fact reduce our liability. We need people representing us within AMA (not just JPO, IMAA, or other SIGs) who are willing to truly promote the advancement of the hobby and FIGHT for our ability to operate with as few regulations as possible. We should use education instead of rulemaking. We should use political pressure and strong negotiation instead of cowering in the face of perceived threats. If you want to see a model of a strong special interest aviation organization just check out www.aopa.org . That is a group that knows how to get it done. They don't win them all but they certainly put up a fight when they lose.

Whatever the outcome, remember this when election time comes around again. I know I will.

P.S. - Anybody interested in a RTF Kangaroo and Super Reaper. I'm not so sure this turbine thing is going to be worth the hassle.

Keith

RE: JPO Statement
 

Kevin

I agree with you but please note that DB does not have a veto power. If we use the time we spend here debating this issue and let our fingers do the talking by reaching out and touching all the AMA VP on their phone line, we would achieve better results.


Regards

Ben

RE: JPO Statement
 

Hang in there and do not give up. It is not as bad as you think.

Regards

Ben

RE: JPO Statement
 

Realdeal,

There are many seasoned jet pilots that feel the same way that you do. Recertification would be a BIG hassle for them too. I'm lucky as my flying buddy is a TCD so I don't have to go far to be recertified. Also, many seasoned jet pilots don't fly at the rallies either for various reasons. I ,too, am weary of all of the regs just to have AMA insurance....One thing that the AMA realizes is that without the insurance the AMA would not exist any more. I can tell you this...We as jet pilots are in the vast minority. The AMA will regulate us to death to help the majority. The only way this will stop is to elect AMA officials that know about our jets.

I really don't need the AMA or a waiver to fly. I primarily fly from a full scale strip where the FBO loves having us there. I only keep my waiver and AMA membership current due to flying at events or occasionally at club fields. I also realize that at any given time my privilages at the full scale strip could be revoked for whatever reason. If a mile long runway sounds good to you...Come fly with us sometime!!!

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

Ben,

TRUST ME!!!! If the AMA wasn't closed right now and wasn't so late I would be making calls!!!!

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

Kevin and All,

The AMA lawyers and insurance reps. were at the EC meeting. We have a proposal that was developed by those appointed by the AMA to deal with these issues, then it was presented to the EC as a recommendation. The EC debated it, made the changes they approved of and then passed the final draft by an 8-3 margin. Now an emergency meeting of the EC has been called to reconsider (recind?) what was voted upon and passed by the EC, and is now official AMA policy. Dave Brown may not want the details released because it would be more difficult to get it over turned if we all knew what was passed. The uproar may then be too much to overcome. Call and write your VP. Tell all your friends whether they are jet modelers or not to call and write. If Dave Brown can ignore recommendations made by an AMA SIG and the AMA Turbine Safety Committe, and get away with subverting the will of the EC, then the big bird guys, the helicopter guys, the pylon guys, and the combat guys had all better get ready for the whipping post, because they are next.

I also want to tell those who doubt the validity of the JPO that if it were not for the JPO, you may not even be able to fly a turbine at all at an AMA field. In my view, the JPO is the only reason we have what we have today. How long do you think the AMA is going to listen to a disorganized bunch of individual complainers? Not very long I think. The first thing my AMA rep.asked me was how many jet modelers did it think there were. He thinks there are less than 200 of us nationwide. What he was really telling me was that there are not enough of us to worry about. He is may not be far off. We are a small group. Every individual member counts. It is time to get involved. Join JPO and let your voice be heard. Whether you realize it or not, JPO is working very hard to make sure that we have turbine regulations that we can live with. It is only $25 per year. That is peanuts!!!

Dennis Lott

RE: JPO Statement
 

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on that. If this is the same place where TN jets was held it is awesome. It is about a 4 hour drive but that could make for a couple good weekend getaways next year. That was the only event I attended where I would have had some comfort flying. It seemed like a much more open sky. I didn't see any of the crazy stuff like I did at Superman (square loops in front of the pilots stations, 7 jets in the air at once with more taxiing out, etc).

Your scenario may be the option we jet fliers should consider. Perhaps we could work with AOPA to make it easier to get permission to fly at full scale airports. If JPO is willing to consider these types of alternatives instead of counting solely on our (apparently miniscule) influence with AMA count me in.

Keith

RE: JPO Statement
 

There are some things money can't buy. For evrything else ther is MC.:D

RE: JPO Statement
 

YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO BE RECERTIFIED BY A TCD if the new regulations stand as is. It will simply be another turbine waiver holder.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Keith,

No, not the same strip where TN jets was held. The strip is three more hours down I-40 toward Memphis. I drive an hour from home to fly there but it is really worth it. Very little if any full scale activity during the week. (I fly primarily during the week. My wife and I work separate shifts so the weekends are the only times we see each other for family time.) You or anyone else that would like to fly are welcome. We would be more than happy to help you with your first jet flights.

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

so who will recert the TCDs DB himself?

RE: JPO Statement
 

Crazy4 flight,

Read what I just typed....jeez what is so hard about this??? The TCD's are only doing check rides for non wiavered individuals. As a TCD I will still have to fly 10 flights a year, and then have another Turbine waiver holder sign off saying he has seen me fly at least 10 flights. Surely you have another friend that flies turbines? Surely you can do 10 flights in a year. I can't believe this one single item is such a large stumbling block for everyone. Hell you don't even have to fly any manouvers just safely fly your airplane.

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,

Sounds like, "What came first---The chicken or the egg???" If everyones waiver expires at the end of the year, there won't be any waiver holders to sign you off!!! Do you get signed off before the end of the year, before the existing waiver expires??? Also, what is in place to prevent a "good ole boy" system of guys that sign each other off??? No offense to the guys that have worked hard on this, BUT, has this accomplished anything to prevent guys that don't deserve a waiver from getting one???

Kevin

RE: JPO Statement
 

Kevin,

Does ED see you fly? Have I seen you fly? The answer is yes to both, I have seen you fly and you were in control of your airplane throughout the whole flight. I would sign you off based on seeing that. There is nothing at all to prevent the Good Ole Boys system from taking control there either. You have to recertify before the waiver expires...... I'm through arguing, you guys do whay you feel is best for your hobby, I AM CONCERNED ABOUT MINE.