Re: Eagle!
 

Yes please! Let us know when you post them. I want to see this engine.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

OK, I just saw the test runs and I'm sold. I guess its a race now between the P-160 and the Eagle, lets see which one hits my doorsteps first.


Sung

Re: Eagle!
 

please don't start posting non related items! lets stick to the main topic turbines!!!!:)


Relax Paul.

What you doing now. Which I alrdeady did way back when I test this engine. I just quietly listen to your improvement over the internet. You getting little better this days. ;)
Tam

Eagle!
 

Sorry Tam, the motor you had way back when, is a totally, totally diffrent motor than what I have!


Please Email direct for videos they are to large to post here!
Here are thrust numbers and Tempatures the new program loaded today was the new 3D program! :)


122k 27lbs @524c
126k 30.5 @570c

TjT 3000
 

I hope to test new TjT 3000 Sunday. I had a JetCat p120 and the bearings went out just after two runs.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

What are you using to test the thrust? And the temperature? From my previous life as an anylitical chemist we always doubted results from just one test, and were also critical of what methods were used to obtain test results. When the AMA started allowing installed thrust to be used instead of manufacturer stated thrust a few years ago we tried several different ways of measuring thrust and could not duplicate results from one test to the next. Do you use a seperate calibrated thermocouple or are you using the one attached to the engine/ECU. Is it calibrated? When I flew RAM's you could not get the engine to start if you shoved the thermocouple probe too far into the engine( 1/16" max), the JetCat probe sticks into the engine a good 1/4" and will read a higher temp than the RAM probe used to. I can also recalibrate the probe (JetCat setup) and read lower, or higher results dependent upon what the ambient temperature was when I calibrated the probe. What I am getting at with all this rambling is that to really compare X brand engine versus Y brand engine you need to setup a test procedure that tests all engines equally. Temperature would be measured at a certain point in the exhaust for all engines and then you would get results that you could compare between engines.

BTW was Artes Jets not the same ones that cast the turbine wheels for RAM??? If so I hope they have learned something since those days.

David Reid

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi David and all,

Hi David, long time no hear how are you going.?

I do agree with you on the testing comments, to do a proper comparison you would have to have properly calibrated test equipment and you would have to make sure that all the test engines were done on the same rig, under the same conditions.
As the co designer and manufacturer of the engine that Jett set is playing with, I am a little bemused with the thrust and temp figures he is achieving, but not surprised as at TJT we know the potential of this design of engine.
I think that you will find that most of the engine manufacturers either talk up the performance levels, or talk them down and it is left to the user to find out.

David for your information on turbine wheels, I think that many moons ago there was a problem with an American engine producer who was using the old style Artes wheel, and was getting wheel failures, ie the wheel sheding blades, I can assure you that this was not in any way the fault of the turbine wheel, it was more a case of the design of the engine and the fact that the rear bearing in this particular engine was being run way outside its specification, ie way to hot, what was happening was the bearing would fail and the shaft would drop and cause the wheel to strike the inside of the NGV and in doing so would break.
The current wheel used by both TJT and Artes Jets is a new designed wheel and this wheel is tested to AMS 2175b standard and each wheel is certified to this level, for those who dont know, AMS 2175b is an full size standard for manufacture and casting quality in full size jet engines. I would be interested to know what standard other wheels are cast to, I do know that the guys at Wren were the first to go to this standard.
See if you can find out to what standard your pet engines ( not meant as a dig, just didnt want to start a war) wheels are cast to and see if it compares to the Artes wheels.
Oh, BTW I do believe that some of the wheels used by the American producer were localy cast in the USA, these can be evidenced by the lack of the Artes jets name cast into the wheel.


BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Chris,

Now I am getting confused....is this your engine or Artes engine that is jetsett has? If it is a TJT why does he need to follow the homebuilt route? Furthermore I don't think he can go that route with it.... but I am not absolutely certain about that. It is my understanding that a kit built engine has to be from an AMA approved kit. Of course I could be wrong about that. (Not that I am ever wrong! LOL)

I don't think it was MANY moons ago either with the wheels shedding blades. As recently as a year ago that same engine manufacturer had wheels shedding blades. Maybe it was a bearing issue, maybe it was a wheel issue, maybe it was the moount used to install the engine in the plane (or so some were told) either way the engines were coming apart at some inopportune times and damaging airplanes.

We all have our "pet" engines as you call it. That will likely never change, turbine wars.....ad nauseum will never end, Ford will always be better than Chevy and JetCats will always be better than everyone else...(And please .............if you don't see my sarcasm here get a life!) I just hope the technology gets so good that all of us have reliable engines that we can trust to fly our expensive toys. I have a banged up airplane that has been sitting on my bench for almost a year now that would not be banged up if the engine had kept running. I also have an airplane in my shop that is banged up from sheer use this year because I have an engine on it that I fuel, fly, and forget about, I am loyal to that engine brand (did I mention that JetCat is the best!) because it has been working very well for me.


So.......... I guess to answer Marty's question from a few posts ago in a different way. Marty....I am sticking tight and NOT switching again anytime soon because my engines are working flawlessly and reliably for me. I wish you guys tha best of luck, I also wish you guys would tone it down a hair and show us at the events how good, and reliable your engines are. And lets compare apples to apples.

Why did I get into this one anyway!

David Reid biased JetCat Rep!

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Chris can you please explain this statement?

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi David,

From what I can gather the engine that Jettset has is an Artes Jet, Eagle kit engine, running a FADEC system as an ecu.
The engine he has is not a TJT3000 Eagle engine, nor is the ecu the same as we currently use.
Although we at TJT make most of the parts for the engine Jettset has, we do not sell or market this engine under our name, nor can we be responsible for any performance figures shown on the Artes site, further to this several of the parts in the TJT3000 production engine are different to what he has in his engine.

David I think you are correct in saying that for a kit engine to be AMA approved, it must first be approved as a production engine.
And for a home built there is a different set of criteria.

I know from conversation with Jett set, that he has made some parts for this particular engine himself, but do not know what he has made.

Mate, I dont give a rats bum what engine or engines you fly, like most, you will go with the one, A) you get the best deal on, B) it works as advertised, C) it is reliable and easy to operate.
Many engines fit into all these catagories, so choose the one you like and fly the hell out of it.
TJT are just getting started in your country, and I do hope that soon our product will be out there and being used, thats all we can ask for.
I am not sure what you mean by you wish we would tone it down a hair, we speak up about our product for the simple reason, for us to market and sell our engines, we have to be heard above all the other clamouring reps. :-)

As far as your pet brand being the best, for you this might be the case, for others its not, thats choice and personal preference, bit like voting democrat or republican. And I am sure you will agree there is nothing wrong with being an informed voter.

BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi Maverick,

Certainly, the temps seem a little low for the thrust achieved.

As David said we need to test all these engines under the same conditions using properly calibrated equipment and on the same test rig. thats all.

BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Thanks. This is the part I wanted. I wasn't sure whether you were talking about the thrust vs RPM's or the temp readings.

Obviously without understanding the way the temps were read we won't really be able to compare them.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Mav,
We have no idea what the test rig Jettset is using.
If he is reading his temps from the FADEC then these are not a true indication of the engine temps, as they are can be varied by moving the thermo couple in and out, much the same as David said about altering the temps on the JetCat ecu.
We can make our engines show they are running very cool just by adjusting the electronics, they are not running any cooler it just appears that way.
As for thrust, once again it depends on how you are measuring and with what.

A $20 fishermans scale will give different readings to a $1400 calibrated load cell, I know which one I would trust, BTW on the TJT engines the probe is placed in the hottest part of our exhaust, and from what I have been told it is only the tip of the temp probe that reads the temp so there is no reason to place the thermo couple right into the exhaust as some do.

BRG,
Chris.

Eagle!
 

Hi, The test stand that was used is electronic pressure thrust measuring thats been calibrated and Cross tested with a seconed digital weight scale to check accuracy,Turbine 101 the Ecu reads temperature and rpm to start and run the motor,So if the temperature probe isn't reading properly the motor would have a hard time just to start let alone run properly as many have witnessed,the motor starts and runs flawlessly we put over 300 minutes and over 70 cycles. I think that the comment about the Ram wheels is funny:) like David R said the proof will be in the pudding!! and I remember the comments about Jet Cat motors way back when Rams ruled were about the same were hearing now.

Eagle
 

Hi Chris ,did you just wake up, you must of had one Fosters to many the temp probe was placed exactly as you told me! How the Orange Juice plant comming?

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi Paul,

Re your comments on Turbine 101, please see chapter 3 section 7 para 4, FADEC 101.

for your info and to correct your misinterpretation of what is happening on start up with the FADEC.
On your programing, you will have set a min start temp of about 100c and a max temp for engine operation of say 800c and a min running temp of 250c
so long as the engine temp is below lets say 100c as I believe is recomended and you have a valid rpm signal, then you will be able to start the engine using the FADEC, once the gas lights off and the temp rises above 100c then the start fuel ramp will begin, once the engine has reached the idle speed, you are running between two set paramenters those being the min running temp and the max running temp, both of which you will have programmed into the FADEC.
you will be able to start the engine so long as the thermo couple is inside the exhaust and is sensing a heat build up of over 100c.
The fact that the engine can be started has no bearing on the accuracy of the temp reading. However on the FADEC system, the position of the thermo couple in the exhaust can and will have a direct bearing on the performance of the engine, as the FADEC uses an active circuit, controlled by the thermo couple to reduce or increase the fuel flow to the engine.

BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi Paul,

Too early for Fosters, any how we dont drink that crap here we export it to the rest of the world :-)

If you have the T couple placed 1/16inch or 2mm inside the exhaust then this is the optimum for the fadec, it still has no bearing on the actual engine temp, granted it should be in the ball park but is not an accurate reading, David R hit the nail on the head when he said about using an external temp measuring set up.
I hope this is now clear. BTW the Orange Juice plant is fine and dandy:-)

BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Calibration 101.... You don't use a second piece of equipment to test the first pieces accuracy. You use known weights and measure them. But for the sake of arguement lets say you have a reasonably good measurement there. What is an "electronic pressure thrust measuring" is this a strain guage, a load cell or a digital fishing scale?


Temperature measuring 101..... a thermocouple must be calibrated in the same way that the scale is. You have to take a known temperature and calibrate WHATEVER the probe using whatever electronics you are using to that. You do another check it again at a higher temperature to insure that you are getting proper readings, thermocouples are very accurate, but they are also only as accurate as YOU set them up to be. Also the temperature you are reading is very dependant upon where you set the probe up in the exhaust efflux.

I am not bashing any brand of engine here just stating the facts re your test procedures, you are comparing one engine to others without using the same instrumentation to test ANY other engines. To accurately test an compare AND make bold statements about how much more thrust an engine is making at a much lower temperature without ACTUALLY comparing them is flawed and does not mean anything.

Good luck with it I hope you have a good engine on your hands. Now put it in a plane and see how it does......most of us don't fly benches!

DR

Eagle
 

Hi Chris , heres the correct interpretation of the start up! from Gaspar Eepiell "

The Start temperature should be of 100ºC minimum, the fuel ramp is
triggered by sensing a increase of 48ºC over the temperature registered at
the moment of to begin the sequence. So if you begin the sequence at 16ºC,
the the fuel ramp will be triggered at 64ºC. This 48ºC increment is usually
reached in 1-2s after ignition, it is very fast

Hi David, I would Just like to say the test equipment used and the person setting it up is very, very knowledgeable has many years of turbine experience under his belt, thanks for your comments you always need both sides:)

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Jetsett,

My interest has really been peaked by your measurements. How about a picture of the thrust testing equipment you are using? We built several for JPO so I would like to compare and see how yours looks.

DR

Eagle
 

Hi ,PM me a email Address, Ill send Video of test cell, A Cadet Digital weight pressure scale was used! Video includes start up with Temperatures read out from GSU.This setup has been used to test thrust outputs for AMA approval, on several engines including Jet Cats P-80 P-120s.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi Jettset,
You wrote the following:-

Hi Chris , heres the correct interpretation of the start up! from Gaspar Eepiell "

The Start temperature should be of 100ºC minimum, the fuel ramp is
triggered by sensing a increase of 48ºC over the temperature registered at
the moment of to begin the sequence. So if you begin the sequence at 16ºC,
the the fuel ramp will be triggered at 64ºC. This 48ºC increment is usually
reached in 1-2s after ignition, it is very fast

You are not correct in this statement,

Lets say the ECU has been set up with a min start temp of 100c as recomended by Gaspar.

Now lets say that the ambient temp is 10c

The FADEC as you correctly say has to register an increase of 48c before it will start allow.

this means that the 10c ambient and the 48c increase when added together come to 58c, this will tell the FADEC that it has registered an increase in temp of 48c and that the FADEC will once the min start temp of 100c is reached, start the fuel ramp to idle, the fuel pump will not turn on and start pumping until the min start temp of 100c is reached.

BRG,
Chris.

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

I concur with Chris. At least that is the way both of mine worked when I was using the FADEC.

Eagle
 

Hi Chris ,that start up sequence, I posted is from a email from Gaspar himself and those are his exact words, would you like me to forward the email to you? so you need to email him and tell him how to write the ecu program:) Thanks Paul

Update Artes Jets Eagle !!!
 

Hi Paul,

Ok have it your way, Its not a TJT engine or ecu so what the hell.


BRG,
Chris.