Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I know it may sound as a crazy idea, but I would like to know if it has any acceptance, so please give your thoughts.

I have a few ideas about it, we could adapt some IMAC routine I guess, but before going any further: do you guys like it ???

Jack

PS: we won`t allow the Shulmans to participate :)

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Jack, In our next event in november in Curitiba , there will be a scale and a jet aerobatic free style competition , as an a alternative who didn´t have a specialized jet to compete in on our jet speed event... You are welcome to participate as well as anybody here in this forum, including the Shulmans . ;)

Enrique

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Not crazy at all. I remember when one of the best pattern fliers in my old club was given a shot at flying a (sport) jet for the first time ... he flew each of the pattern sequences in turn, and commented afterwards that with the exception of maneuvers like the stall turn, the jet seemed very well suited to the sequences.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

should have lent him a boomer xl that does a very respectable stall turn

m

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Pattern is the most boring thing in the world to watch........maybe being powered by turbines will make it more exiciting.....but I doubt it.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

DAVE.........HARDLY BORING..............GET A LIGHTNING.......YOU'LL NEVER BE BORED AGAIN, MISSED YOUR'E INPUT AT FJ THIS YEAR, THOSE LITTLE WAITRESSES AT THE OUTBACK ....DID TOO!!! .............MALCOLM

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

JACK..........GREAT IDEA...I'M ALL FOR IT !...........PS , HOW DO YOU DO AEROBATICS ? MK

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

the old tangerines event died in the early 1990"S and was being won and flown by bv and t nitsch w/vipers but not enough turnout then

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

[:-]

C'mon now! Turbine pattern will be much different, and we're all for it! A 3 or 4-minute freestyle with music would be pretty darn interesting as well. ;)

At least I am, think my brother is a bit occupied with regular pattern flying at the moment.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I'm into it! I think that would be great. I miss flying pattern but lost some interest in it when they went to the new widebody planes. I've thought many times about flying the pattern in a contest with a jet but the box size might make it a little difficult with the faster planes.

As opposed to high speed low pass after pass after pass at a jet event ;)
As for pattern being boring, sounds like the words of somebody who's never really gotten into it. It's no more boring to watch than anything else, same thing being done over and over, but if you're into it, you sit back and critique, judge and learn from ALL the pilots. I learned more flying pattern than any other discipline I've been involved in, I'd be all over a jet pattern event!

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I think it would be great as well. You can't really say that the current jet rally venue of the race track pattern with a few low passes and the occasional vertical roll is all that spell-binding.

I think we should have two classes: one Aresti / IMAC style "in the box" routine and another "one manuever per pass" pattern just like the good old days. This would appeal to the slower as well ballistic types.

I've got about a 85% success rate at stall turns with the Reaper. Maybe we should exclude the stall turn..................

John

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

NATS 1988 Tri-City's Washington

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I have seen David doing some gorgeous IMAC routines with the King Cat... inside the box !!!!
His stall turns were no different that those of a pattern plane.
So, it can be done ... and in expert hands, done great !!

OK David..... you are in !!!

Jack

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Doesn't need to be IMAC nor F3A type. Just call it precision flying. Everybody judged by the same scale.

8 point rolls on the deck, slow-flight, slow roll, slow knife-edge, negative loops from the top, 360 degeree tight turn, straight inverted flight, and why not 2.5+ spins. They are all quite possible, yet balls to the wall.

Sure......easy to knife edge and slow roll at 140 mph.............try it at 60 mph. Guys, there is a market for this and the maneouvers are not as easy as they sound.

Had I a turbine jet right now, I'd be practicing sequence as we speak.

Good luck. Hope you guys make it a reality, and hope you guys can take the heat and the cold of precision flying. It's a blast.

David

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Well........don't mean to be rude, but jet rallies with nothing but low passes, one or two rolls at 200 ft, a couple of 180 mph low passes aint that great either.

Spice it up. ;)

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Didn't mean it as an insult, meant it more as in the intricacies involved and judging every part of it for the hope of self improvement. I flew pattern from 1994 until 1999, always enjoyed watching it more than than a scale event with 10 J3 cubs, 6 warbirds, and 5 other planes who's schedule consisted of the same stuff, and enjoy watching it more than pylon racing (with the exception of the carnage found at most races hehehe)

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Great idea Jack. I think a freestyle format of precision aerobatics (maybe to music) would be far more enjoyable to watch than an all out f-3A Event.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Dave--You can't compete!!!---At least not being able to use both hands....For you the rules shall be that you have to fly with one hand and the other behind your back...That's just to make it somewhat fair...You have to use one hand, no tray and no neckstrap---Now THAT'S fair!!!:)---And you would probably still beat all of us...[&:]

Kevin

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Sounds liek a great idea. We did this back in the 80's and early 90's and it got lost in the shuffle. I am game to try it again.

I would have to agree on the music idea.

I'm in, where do I need to be to loose? I'm only going to make you guys look good.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

thats typical, devalue the event by excluding the best! you should aspire to beat them not handicap them where's your competition spirit??

m

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I am in.. You all are going to be reall upset when I win with a 6 year old POS airplane...

David may have car trouble getting there.. hahaha

Eddie Weeks

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I agree with most of what has been said here with the exception of flying to music. 100% against. What are we anyway?, ice skaters or some sort of ballroom dancers!!. There are so many aerobatic events ruined already by music imho. Think of rolling circle variations, one roll circle, 4 point roll circle, reverse rolling circle, 8 point rolling circle, rolling loops and eights, slooooooow roll in a straight line, the list could go on forever. Oh, and not to make the dreadful mistake pattern made in 1984 when turnaround was adopted, on the pretext of slowing down the models and"reducing the noise footprint". Imho true pattern died that year r.i.p.. Also why ban the Shulmans and their like? Contestants need something to aim for and think of the fun when they are beaten !!. Turbine flying has been completely taken over by SCALE models to the detriment of free design. I class myself as an Aeromodeller, and I love all kinds of model aircraft activity, and have competed in Free Flight, Control Line, (U control),and lots of R/C events including Helis. Just one more thing. Please please dont slow the models down. Paul.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Paul---What I said about the Shulmans (Dave in particular) was very tongue in cheek---A joke!! [8D]

Kevin

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

My how quickly you guys forget,

Don't any of you remember watching Tony F fly the full pattern with his Bobcat and Mig!!! I sure do and TRUST ME, it is ANYTHING BUT BORING!! He is the best their is at it, and to me, it's simply awe inspiring to watch him fly like that!! His routine was/is more of a mixture of old school AMA style pattern and new school style, and THATS the format we should adopt. Remember the old school style with the high speed pattern ships??, Tippos, curaries, atlantas, ufos, etc., the sport jets seem like a perfect segue into that style of flight. If something like that were to evolve, i'd be ALL IN:D I'd get a Bobcat, pay Tony F a zillion bucks to teach me to fly like he does and have at it:D:D

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Very cool attitude John! I am just getting started with jets but I love flying imac aresti and 3D. I would like to have goals with my jet flying much more than how much money I can sink into it, or who won what and with whom where. IMO flying is the only way to separate the men from the boys, not who you know, ink or $$$. It sounds very fun to me and perfect challenge for the gross over spenders and under flyers. Could be a ton of fun. Bring it!

Joe

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

No Shulman's..... Im in then!!!! Noting like competeing for third place!

Actually thats a great idea, make third place pay say 1000, second 750 and first only 500.

A freestyle is a must these days.

Timmy Redelman I hope you got your ears on...

OK, sign me up for an Ultra Bandit!

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Amen to that!....I appreciate the skill involved and the practice required but the entertainmant value is zero after watching one or two.....Ron

(maybe watching one of the local pattern fellows practicing his routine regularily for three seasons at our field is what brought me to this conclusion)

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I like this idea and think it would be nice to start out by using the old AMA style masters pattern set up. There was a list of 37 maneuvers to pick from with each given a K factor (multiplier of the judges score) the higher the K factor the more difficult the maneuver. Everybody had to come up with a sequence that had 12 maneuvers and a total K factor of 45. This would allow you to choose the maneuvers that you and your plane are best suited to.
Face it we all think jets are so cool that we are content to fly in a circle this would add a big dimension but would not be for everyone.
Now if we go back even further pattern contests were run in conjunction with scale. Not everybody did both but we all had fun.
George Manning

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Haven't been to an airshow for a decade or two....
Do the full size fighter pilots manage to do anything interesting in their demo/show flights?
I suppose a freestyle competition is not easy to judge and watching a whole day of the same pattern could get tedious(?) A free selection from a catalog of manouvers, with a set limit for maximum points, sounds like it would keep the spectators interested.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Hey Dustin, now that's what I'm talking about!!!!

We will give Dave enough money in first to buy a couple dozen donuts, we can tell Jason where the event is and hold it somewhere else, and then us mere mortals will have a fighting chance.

Or we can say the top two places don't count and first is really third and so on!!

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Dear Jack,
This is a great idea! I am a relative newcomer to jets,flying a KingCat. I flew pattern years ago when the format was Thunderbird style maneuvers-no aerobatic box. When pattern went to all turnaround,I think it lost a lot of flyers. Jets IMHO are well-suited to the "old style" maneuvers. Maybe there could be two classes such as sportsman,and expert,or master. The sportsman could consist of a loop,horizontal roll inverted flight,stall turn,knife edge,etc. Take off,and landing would also be judged. Expert or master would be of course,the more complex maneuvers,rolling circles,8 point rolls,inverted spins,etc. Perhaps each class could choose from a "menu" of appropriate maneuvers. This would add a little individuality,and make watching each contestant less "boring". Just my 2 cents
Ancient Pattern flyer,
Tom Murphy
May all your take-offs,and landings be equal.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Does anybody out there have a copy of a pre-1984 AMA rule book? I'm looking for the old list of pattern manuevers and descriptions....

Tailwinds,

John

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I think this all sounds like a really great idea. When is someone going to draw up some sequences for jets? It would be nice to have some for BobCat/Rookie types and more scale jets.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Hello John

I have some of the old rulebooks and if there is a real interest once I get back home on
Monday I can post a list along with the original K-Factors for each. Most of the maneuvers would be fairly easy to perform and if given a chance this weekend I'll try to put a sequence together at theTucson jet rally just to see how well it's accepted.
George Manning

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I think we are on the right track here guys I do miss pre 1990 pattern it was fast big and fun back when we where flying pheniox 7 and 8s, Atlanta 60s and summits ect. That was a good time and good compation tell politics got in to it to much. Like the top hats with 1/2 rolls and square loops ect gee brings backs alot of good times there.
Daniel Hemmig

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I THINK THIS IS A GREAT IDEA . MAYBE THIS WILL SPARK SOME OF THE OLD PATTERN MASTERS TO GET INVOLVED WITH TURBINE JETS. THE TWO CONCERNS THAT I CAN THINK OF ARE THE ISSUES OF SPACE FOR ONE ,TWO OR THREE PILOTS AT A TIME .ALSO THE LENGTH OF A EVENT WITH LETS SAY 50 PILOTS.

JUST SOME ISSUES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT

MIKE KIRBY
BLUEGRASS JET JAM
EVENT CHAIRMAN

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I say we call a short meeting together at Tucson for those intrested in this venture, and hash out a few details, set up a sequence and have George or whoever fly it, and we can go from there, i just wish Tony were going to be there with us as this is his world totally and his input and insight would be priceless...........

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

I talked to Tony at length about the Jet Pattern concept the other night and we brainstormed quite a few ideas. I've been flying the same 9 manuever sequence (not including turn-around manuevers) with my Reaper for the last 3 years. It's hard to do it at rallys with the race-track patten in effect.... Here is the sequence of the center manuevers:

Loop with full roll at the top

Four Point Roll

Reverse Cuban Eight

Eight Point Roll

Cuban Eight

Slow Roll

Top Hat with 1/2 Rolls

Two-Point Roll or Straight Inverted Flight or Low High Speed Pass (well, high speed for the Reaper!)

Vertical Eight

And then maybe a Vertical Upline with a 1 1/2 Outside Snap...or not

We leave for Tucson in the morning.

See 'Ya in TUS

John

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

doing it at a current fly-in is the key issue. the race track pattern is too full and there is not enough time to seperate the flying .,so the pattern events defenetly need their own dates scheduled and will keep the majoraty from getting restless.

RE: Model Jets Pattern Competition
 

Joe with you're talent flying Giant Scale Aerobatics you should fall right in with this type of flying...

Im getting ready to pull the trigger on a Jet...

Jack this type of event will be 100% cool...