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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: Gazzer ET, LOL, your right, the police let guilty parties go all the time....... sometimes though we do get them back when the evidence comes out, well sometimes! And negligence is a serious business these days, ignorance is not a defence any more. Gazzer But I'd be reasonably sure that just because the police let him go home does NOT mean they found him completely innocent of any wrongdoing...my guess is they felt he had a factory, a family, and other community ties and did not represent a flight risk. ROR, they call it here in the states! To meld the fact that they let him return home into "see! he's completely innocent!" like the model club's press release did, well, it don't work that way! Have no idea how the Hungarian courts will treat this, I do have an idea how it would be treated in america. |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
My post could be miscontsrtued and was a more of a recognition of ET's point.
I am not saying the pilot is guilty of anything in any way, like I did say, evidence will come out and I will consider it in full then. Apologies for any one who thought I may have been suggesting guilt or negligence at this point in time. Gazzer |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Exactly my point Doug, and that is why I think it is entirely, absolutely unacceptable that ANY safety rules are relaxed just because highly skilled pilots are flying.
Regards, David Gladwin. |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
This vid was posted in the Video Gallery the other day. Its a bit off topic, but a good reminder of the need for flight line separation from crowds and the fact that there are a number of things can go awry with our models: http://www.tulsarc.com/videos/cat_cr...your_props.wmv
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RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: EddieWeeks Attached are two graphs of the Probability of getting hit with an airplane. There are a few assumptions but all are reasonable. 1) Every flight crashes 2) Each Person is 5 ft^2 and the plane does not have area More info at http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/Prob/...iles/frame.htm Power Point http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/Prob/Prob.ppt In the first graph, This is real data collect from a Turbine plane. The second graph is the same data divided by two. Not a prop plane (I assumed a prop plane Goes 1/2 as fast and 1/2 as far) Also in the second graph I calculated the odds with 1681 people standing 30 feet Behind the pilot. Then I calculated the odds of any one of these people getting Hit with an out of control plane.. Graph 1: One Pilot flying a turbine, Odds of getting hit are ~1,000,000 to 1 Graph 2: 1681 people 30 feet from pilot Odds of getting hit are 213 to 1 This Probability calculation may or may not be accurate but its very good at showing us what is important. Eddie Weeks Statistics & probabilities really don't mean much to whomever the fickle finger of fate points. In fact they are meaningless! If you or I had been at the controls, or dreadfully in the flight path of this particular tragedy, all the statistics in the world would not mean a thing. The best any of us can do... is to do everything possible to ensure innocent bystanders remain safe. If full snap roll and engine kill fail-safe capabilities were the airshow standard worldwide the likely hood (Probability) of another tragedy of this sort happening would be greatly reduced. From what I saw of the video the spectators appeared to be very close to the pilots flight area, possibly within 50 feet. With a safety buffer minimum of 100 feet from the flight line, along with full snap-roll programming / engine kill required the probability of this type of accident happening would have been dramatically reduced or totally eliminated. It must understood that to actually fly an R/C model with full snap-roll fail-safe settings requires a higher level of R/F link capability, testing and aircraft setup. In fact this requirement would eliminate about 3/4 of the model aircraft flying today! Yep, that's right most model aircraft / radio systems flying today will not pass the rigor of this standard. I was very surprised when the AMA eliminated this long-standing requirement last year for the Experimental Class aircraft! My belief is the Safety committee members decided the vast majority of radio systems on the market could not safely meet this standard today. A numbers thing! In my opinion the default fail-safe HOLD feature of today's PCM radios is for the innocent spectator not good! The half-in-half out of control glitch of the PPM encoding is I believe a little safer! Not safer than PCM fail-safe set to snap roll, but safer than PCM HOlD! It always has amazed me that the radio manufactures would ship their radios with HOLD as the default setting. I believe the snap-roll engine kill should be a required standard for all R/C model aircraft weighing more than 20lbs. In fact it would be better if that were the standard for all Model Aircraft of any weight. Shew.. Would that upset the manufactures apple cart! Lee H. DeMary AMA 36099 |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I see a lot of talk about failsafe. Failsafe is a last ditch effort in my opinion. When failsafe kicks in the plane is not under control of the pilot. Don't get me wrong failsafe is better then nothing. But we should make every effort not to have to use failsafe in the first place.
There was no scanner at this event. And from what info we have a scanner was not used anytime before the show. I would be very interested in knowing if the Regional Radio Broadcaster in Szekszard did any broadcasting on the days before the RC Air show. I keep reading that this broadcaster suddenly turned on his radio. Does anyone think this was the very first time that this person turned on this radio on channel 62 in the past week. I would think if you are having a large RC show it would be a good idea to monitor (scan) the frequencies that you are going to be using. Not just on the day of the show but the weekend before and during the week before. This should be a minimum standard. Stefan's dad brought a scanner with him to check the frequencies so it looks like Stefan had access to a scanner and did not bring it with him. Maybe he thought the people having the show would have one. It didn't take Stefan's dad long to find the source of the interference. I find it highly unlikely that this broadcaster didn't transmit before the day of the air show. I think if the frequencies would have been monitored leading up to the show this tragic event might have been averted |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: air mail rcu I see a lot of talk about failsafe. Failsafe is a last ditch effort in my opinion. When failsafe kicks in the plane is not under control of the pilot. Don't get me wrong failsafe is better then nothing. But we should make every effort not to have to use failsafe in the first place. There was no scanner at this event. And from what info we have a scanner was not used anytime before the show. I would be very interested in knowing if the Regional Radio Broadcaster in Szekszard did any broadcasting on the days before the RC Air show. I keep reading that this broadcaster suddenly turned on his radio. Does anyone think this was the very first time that this person turned on this radio on channel 62 in the past week. I would think if you are having a large RC show it would be a good idea to monitor (scan) the frequencies that you are going to be using. Not just on the day of the show but the weekend before and during the week before. This should be a minimum standard. Stefan's dad brought a scanner with him to check the frequencies so it looks like Stefan had access to a scanner and did not bring it with him. Maybe he thought the people having the show would have one. It didn't take Stefan's dad long to find the source of the interference. I find it highly unlikely that this broadcaster didn't transmit before the day of the air show. I think if the frequencies would have been monitored leading up to the show this tragic event might have been averted |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
As I said safety is a dynamic consideration.
I am not a radio expert but know that various atmospheric and other conditions can distort and interrupt ariwaves to the point that erroneeous frequencies can be generated, harmonics etc. So what about this new dual reciever system, never seen a bcak up transmitter in use, cos of course this is an item to potentially fail too. Then of course there is that requirement to act upon something, safety is YOUR responsibility as the pilot just as in driving the car or full size. Take heed, its a responsible position....... And whilst a lot has been said about mass and inertia, an airgun can kill just like an AK47 thought I grant an AK47 more likely to do the deed, its not the size, weight and speed that matters its what and how it hits, and the consequences of that collision that causes the tragedy. So avoid the collision in the first place. Thinking again about Eddies post, this might provide value in planning out the flight paths and spectators, for instance, it is usually a flat spectator fence, perhaps it should feature shape, where the aircraft turn at the ends of the pattern, perhaps the fence should go back, kind of kidney shaped....... Gazzer |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: air mail rcu I see a lot of talk about failsafe. Failsafe is a last ditch effort in my opinion. When failsafe kicks in the plane is not under control of the pilot. Don't get me wrong failsafe is better then nothing. But we should make every effort not to have to use failsafe in the first place. There was no scanner at this event. And from what info we have a scanner was not used anytime before the show. I would be very interested in knowing if the Regional Radio Broadcaster in Szekszard did any broadcasting on the days before the RC Air show. I keep reading that this broadcaster suddenly turned on his radio. Does anyone think this was the very first time that this person turned on this radio on channel 62 in the past week. I would think if you are having a large RC show it would be a good idea to monitor (scan) the frequencies that you are going to be using. Not just on the day of the show but the weekend before and during the week before. This should be a minimum standard. Stefan's dad brought a scanner with him to check the frequencies so it looks like Stefan had access to a scanner and did not bring it with him. Maybe he thought the people having the show would have one. It didn't take Stefan's dad long to find the source of the interference. I find it highly unlikely that this broadcaster didn't transmit before the day of the air show. I think if the frequencies would have been monitored leading up to the show this tragic event might have been averted You see the real reason why most of us will never-but-never set the fail-safes to a full snap-roll is because we value our aircraft more than the innocent spectator yep I said it... and most of you know that your R/F link will not stand up to the full fail-safe standard.... don't you? How many of you will this weekend take your highest dollar aircraft... set full snap-roll fail-safes and confidently go fly it... hummm? Seriously go do it.. and tell me you don't check and re-check every possible issue that has been discussed in this thread...and even more.. before you fly. Lee H. DeMary AMA 36099 |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Whatever this accident has proven, and it certainly has rung the alarm bells, it is now totally obvious that a scanner IS a neccessity at ALL flying sites and I recommend an Icom IC R5 as I described in the last RCJI. It is a professional unit which works extremely well. Available in UK now for around £130 as advertised on the back page of the last "Pilot" magazine, by Harry Medehlson, probably less in the US. Mine has already earned its keep, detecting a Tx. splattering onto my frequency at my field. And as I mentioned in that article we absolutely MUST have some form of protocol when changeing frequencies on PLL radios, and soon. Why the delay, complacency ?
Regards, David Gladwn |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
It's not just the scanner, its someone using it proactively with enough "teeth" to call a halt to flying.
In a way its like sharing air space with full size, if they're up, you come down, if your frequency gets compromised, your down, but that demands someone looking at the machine and providing the order. Should not be a problem in shows/events with spectators, might be harder at club level. Before every event every transmitter/reciever/airframe in combination should be scrutinised, checked electronically that it is performing to specification, on start up a final "all clear check" before taxi. Requires some effort and organisation but nothing strenuous. David, I take it your not in Oz by the timings on your posts, else your up early/late!!!! Gazzer |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
I don't think at the club level you need to be as strict. Most people in a RC club always keep it in the back of their minds that a plane can go out of control at any time. Wouldn't be a bad idea to use a scanner. I have one built into my radio. I will be using it a lot more.
When you are dealing with the general public most have no idea the dangers of this hobby/sport. A scanner needs to be mandatory. |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Gazzer, Airmail, If I may say so it looks like my recommendation in RCJI last issue (use of Icoms scanner) was right on and its difficult to believe that anyone at a public display was not using one, but perhaps its too easy to be critical with hindsight.
I am still at home in Sydney and working late on copy for next RCJI which is highly relevant to this thread and that is a detailed description of the new Weatronics Dual Receiver system. Its a single frequency unit (but synthesised) but the electronics associated with the two receivers will allow us to make an accurate analysis of just how our radio equipment is working IN THE AIR, no more guesswork. After this accident my guess is that there will be enormous interest in this unit and in fact the first batch to reach Australia, due very soon, is already sold out. As soon as my unit arrives, due two weeks ago , it will be in the air and the following edition of RCJI will have more info based on flight test. If it delivers all it promises, and I think it will, this unit will be standard fit in my large jets such as all three Hawks and Mig 29. The manual, 40 pages long, is hard going, this is a complex unit, but I have spent several days with the manual and a couple of days trying to condense the system description to make it easier and quicker to assimilate. May I wish you all a good weekends flying, we have the Sydney scale rally on Sunday and the two models I will be flying, the Savex L39 and BVM F4, are getting the most thorough prep., not least the failsafe operation. Regards, David Gladwin. |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
David, I will be looking forward to your review of the Weatronics Dual Reciever system.
Good luck on your Rally. I hope you have clear skys and clean frequencies. Terry |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: Silver182 Eddie & all, Statistics & probabilities really don't mean much to whomever the fickle finger of fate points. In fact they are meaningless! If you or I had been at the controls, or dreadfully in the flight path of this particular tragedy, all the statistics in the world would not mean a thing. Lee H. DeMary AMA 36099 If you don't understand the way the probabilities were calculated, that's fine, but you are way wrong in saying they are meaning less. In the absence of any real data, (i.e. how often planes crash), the next best tool for making, one aspect of this Hobby safer is Probabilities. If the work I have done convinces the planers of an RC flight demo, to move the planes further away from the crowd and a plane crashes where people would have been standing without my work. I would feel like I contributed something. Unlike your most excellent post on fate, witch btw is not a word the scientific community acknowledges. The rusults of work show, every time you double the distance from a person to a flying plane, that person is 4 times less likely to get hit by that plane... 4 times less likely... This is far more important than PCM hold settings. Eddie Weeks |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Hi all, in special to Stefan:
My condolences for the victims and spirit for my friend in this hard moment. __________________________________________________ __________ Best regards from Club de Aeromodelismo NIMBUS. __________________________________________________ __________ |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
as for scanne ri use personnally a Alinco Dj-X3--great price adn performance...my RC club has for the meeting a professional receiver, (from AOR or uniden..i forgot..)
where all frequency are programmed and he continues scan all used channel on 35 and 40 MHz.. if a channel has something, whe get it.. last addition for me is this small boxes, from Robbe here in Europe full of LED, where each LED is a channel...if a LED lit up, mean the channel is occupied... |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: EddieWeeks ORIGINAL: Silver182 Eddie & all, Statistics & probabilities really don't mean much to whomever the fickle finger of fate points. In fact they are meaningless! If you or I had been at the controls, or dreadfully in the flight path of this particular tragedy, all the statistics in the world would not mean a thing. Lee H. DeMary AMA 36099 If you don't understand the way the probabilities were calculated, that's fine, but you are way wrong in saying they are meaning less. In the absence of any real data, (i.e. how often planes crash), the next best tool for making, one aspect of this Hobby safer is Probabilities. If the work I have done convinces the planers of an RC flight demo, to move the planes further away from the crowd and a plane crashes where people would have been standing without my work. I would feel like I contributed something. Unlike your most excellent post on fate, witch btw is not a word the scientific community acknowledges. The rusults of work show, every time you double the distance from a person to a flying plane, that person is 4 times less likely to get hit by that plane... 4 times less likely... This is far more important than PCM hold settings. Eddie Weeks I'm not limiting my solution to RC flight Demo's, I'm suggesting fail-safe snap-roll should be the standard fail-safe setting, rather than HOLD! Yes, of course if humans are farther away from the flight area the chance of mishap to them is less... but I don't think that takes much scientific genius to figure out, do you? I'm not trying to be-little your work by any means, but lets stick to solutions for this particular problem... which I believe we all could see happening very clearly! A problem by the way that we all know could happen to us each and every time we fly, the state of our R/F link technology being what it is.... This aircraft for whatever reason had a major R/F link failure! Would we all agree on that? If that is assumed to be a fact in this terrible accident... then what solutions might prevent flyaway lockup tragedies from occurring again? Sure we could move all spectators 600 feet away from the flight area, we could build a fence that rises to 400 feet all around the flight area... or any number of other restrictions that might reduce the chance of a out of control aircraft from reaching innocent spectators. My point is we already have a tool built into (most) our radio's.. that will assure the pilot his aircraft will stay within the flight safety zone if he losses all control....because of an R/F link failure...one of our biggest nightmares! My point is why don't we all use this built in safety feature to the fullest extent possible? Lee H. DeMary AMA 36099 |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Lee,
Nice idea but consider a snap roll failsafe on a low pass, landing or take off. It may be just enough to stall the plane and send it into the flightline or pits. There is no silver bullet that will make this hobby 100% safe. I would hate for a solution to be mandated that causes more problems than we previously had. I do agree all failsafe settings should kill the engine. Personally, I think it is easier to move away from a known path than an unknown snapping object. BTW, I carry and use the Icom and the Hobbico scanner as a matter of practice. Mark M. |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
"Nice idea but consider a snap roll failsafe on a low pass, landing or take off. It may be just enough to stall the plane and send it into the flightline or pits"
good consideration..! regard's |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Why not move this thread over to the PROP JOB IMAC thread where it belongs. Sure we all need to be reminded of how potentially fragile our toys can be. But the initial point has been made and we have been reminded.
Just my 2 cents |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Can't agree with Afterburner,
Power source is irrelevant, injuries may differ I concede, but this is about safety, jets need it as much as the other guy. Gazzer |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Safety is the responsibility of us all, but some need guidance, does it rearly matter in what forum this is in, its in this one, every one knows where it is, if its moved it could loose some interesting input.
Mike |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
Surprising though this may be, I actually agree with Afterburner's sentiment -- that is by having this particular thread in the jets forum we may be viewed as guilty by association -- or worse the sole guilty party with regard to potential for harm. While I promote conversations on safety and fully agree that we need to do more to make events safer, I think it should be an RC AIRCRAFT issue, not just a jet issue.
Maybe you could open the thread across all aicraft forums and allow posts to be viewed by people in each forum? Better yet, why not create a safety forum and cross post at the top of each aircraft forum list the last 2 or 3 message titles from the safety forum. This would eliminate the feeling that any one group is being singled out for safety issues. Just a thought. Antony |
RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash
ORIGINAL: aparchment Surprising though this may be, I actually agree with Afterburner's sentiment -- that is by having this particular thread in the jets forum we may be viewed as guilty by association -- or worse the sole guilty party with regard to potential for harm. While I promote conversations on safety and fully agree that we need to do more to make events safer, I think it should be an RC AIRCRAFT issue, not just a jet issue. Maybe you could open the thread across all aicraft forums and allow posts to be viewed by people in each forum? Better yet, why not create a safety forum and cross post at the top of each aircraft forum list the last 2 or 3 message titles from the safety forum. This would eliminate the feeling that any one group is being singled out for safety issues. Just a thought. Antony |
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