FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Hello there,

Further to various unfortunate fluttering experiences encountered by a few jet owners, or also difficulty acheiving smooth rotation on takeoff.
Can anyone come forward with positive experience and hopefully some modifications to avoid unpleasant events.

Thanks for your input.
Regards.

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Send a PM to 6blitz. He has had one a while and flies it all the time with none of the faults you noted. I doubt there is anything special that was done but it was put together by a guy that builds professionally. Maybe better care was taken during assembly than the average first timer might be a difference. All I know is I see it flying all of the time and appears terrific all around.
BC

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

I fly the Xtreme Rafale which is very similar.
For take off on grass strip. Hold on the brakes to half power, push stick up to full and release brakes. Plane accelerates very quickly and hold a little up, once it gets close to flying speed take off is fairly smooth. Be ready with a bit of down to counteract any quick lift off.
I use lots of canard movement for take off and landing & limited movement for flight.
Simjet 2300aes gives more than enough power.
Sounds & looks great in flight.
Very manoverable, I use a lot of expo on roll control.
Flying is comfortable in the half to two thirds range, very fast at full throttle.
Landing is controlled in full delta fashion use a good angle of attack & keep power on.
Regards.
John C

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

BlackCloud, Jetjohn,

Thank you for your feedback. This is quite reassuring to know that no big issue are expected for this jet. I guess that the worst feeling anyone can have is to fly a plane and having some doubts in the back of his mind waiting for something to go wrong during flight.

Jetjohn, do you have a positive AOA on your Rafale? You have menionned that you have 2 settings for canard, take off/landing phase and during flight, could you give me some indications on these?
and what about the location of your CG?

Thanks.
Best regards.

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

I have a feeling the issues might have just been in the begining and were mostly tied to the bad hinges that come witht he kit. they look like dubro's but there super sloppy! First thing I do on these now is chuck all the hinges for proper tight hinges. I'm in the process of finishing mine up now.


Barry

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

I have a FeiBao Rafale. I have been flying it for the past 6 months. I used 5 hinges and 8411's on the elevons and have had no problems with fluttering. I am flying it with an RTI turbine with 28 lbs thrust and it's fast!

As far as for smooth rotation on takeoff, use full cunard (almost touching the fuse). Make sure the CG is 140mm back from the wing's leading edge. I am using a 9z radio with -40% expo and servo delay. Slowing down your servos will greatly improve the flight of this jet. It flies smooth and scale.

Hope this helps you. Good luck.

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Barry and just4u,

Thanks for your feedback.

Just4u, do you use full canard mixed up during flight or just for take off? Alternatively, do you have your canards set on a 2 or 3 position switch for different flight phases?

Appreciate your clarification in this respect.

Regards.
Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Hi Dany,
As per other reply, use as much Canard as possible for take off, be ready to to go to neutral as you lift off or you just go near vertical. Not a problem with my Simjet 2300aes it just keeps going up.
Retract gear switch is linked to approx one third canard movement,so as gear up is selected canards ease and make for good flying.
If you have a three position switch you could select canard off as an allternative but I have found in this case you need a lot of up movement on the elevons to climb, loop etc.
If you use about a third of full movement for flying you can have some real fun. Plus much easier to land with lots of canard when gear down is selected I find it amazing the angle of attack that you can achieve prior to touch down & how slow you can go.
Today whilst flying I lost all the retract air,still not sure how,but came into land at less than 5mph for final touch down at approx 30plus degee angle of attack.
As the tail touched the grass the nose just came down slowly the plane from touching to full sop less than three feet. The only damage was the gear doors which were in the open position with the legs still inside the fuz. ( Took an hour to glue the hinges back on )
Every body that was watching were amazed at how slow it landed.
All the best,
John C

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Dany,

I like to keep things simple. I use the same full canard during flight that I use during take off and landing. I do not have dual rates on the plane, either. During the first couple of flights, I find the sweet spot for the appropriate throws. If you are able to slow down the canards, it will help you during take off and in flight.

Julio

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

John, Julio,

Thanks again for your precious information and experience. In fact I am just a bit worried cause i fly on a rather short field about 330 ft of paved runway located on top of a hill at 4000 ft. altitude. Surroundings of runway are not freindly (no grass or smooth area, just a valley, rocks etc....) therefore, I have no room for mistakes, and this is precisely why i need to get a clear idea of what to expect and reduce surprises to a minimum.

Thanks. again.
Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Can anyone advise if ordinance and missiles will have a significant impact during flight both for stability and CG?

Thanks. Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Hi Extra 300, I have two friends with the same issues than you with their Feibao Rafales. It is almost imposible to achieve a normal take off, you need almost 600 ft of paved runway and full canard and elevon posible deflection to get lift off rotation. When this finally occurs the nose suddenly takes a dangerous up position.
Even with the CG at 140 mm. the main gear is located too aft. You can diminish the problem increasing the nose up incidence on the ground to get some positive angle in take off roll.
The best solution would be move the main gear a little bit forward to locate it closer to the CG. You can make this easily changing the angle of the woodden seat of the retracts. You can add a wood wedge in the retract base in order to get some angle in the struts moving the wheels forward.

One of my friends changed the fuel distribution for a better take off performance. The main and larger tank is located too forward and increases too much the nose weight in the first part of the flight.
He canceled this tank and replaced it for two lateral tanks just behind the turbine mount glued in both sides of de fuselage. Those tanks are conected in that way that they are the first to get emptied.
With all that mods, the Feibao Rafale almost gets a normal take off.

We didn´t noticed any flutter. We installed good and large surface horn and small servo arm in the rudder and ball-linked.

Good Luck!!
Roberto Montiel
Spain

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

I have the Xtreme jets Rafale wich had the same issue on take off, you will need to move the main gear as far forward as possible and chage the nose strut to a longer one. i modified the skymaster nose strut to make it 1 1/4 inches longer putting the fuse at 5 degrees positive incidence. I have my CG at 140 and i use full canards through out the entire flight and they are set to 25mm up and down, for your first few flights turn them off and mix them in as you get some time on the airframe.

I fly with the wing tip missles and a centerline wet tank for smoke and no trim change is needed, with the wing tanks you will need a decent amount up elevator to level her out in normal flight. I have not added the Mica missles and mounts at this time.



Alan

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Roberto, Alan,

Thanks for your input on the subject. Actually i am now very much worried that the rather short runway that i use will not be enough for this jet (at least for take off) it is a 300 ft (but now extended to 350) of asphalt located on top of a hill at 4000 ft above sea level. i beleive there are no room for mistakes flying out of this runway.

I had read before that positive AOA would imrove take off roll. What I did is shortening main legs by approximately 1/2" and moved main retracts forward. I did not play with nose leg or front retract position view it was already a tight fit.

1) Do you think, i will still have problems rotating short enough with this configuration?
2) Do i have to set the canards at max deflection for take off (i.e. no mixing)? or should i use the mix normally at full deflection?
3) would an offset position of canards at take off help for better, smoother and shorter take off?

I am really confused at this stage and don't know what to expect. Hope to receive some positive input.

Thanks and best regards.
Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

How do you set up flap control on this plane? Do we need them?

Could any one offer me any advise on how to properly set up a canard based plane?

thanks,

Mike

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Hi Mike,

I have a Fei Boa Rafale and have been flying it almost every Sunday for over a year now. I set it up with canards on channel 6 mixed with elevator as master channel, 100% ratio. I don't know what type of radio you have, but if your radio has servo delay, it really helps on the canards and elevator to slow down the speed of the servos.

Hope that helps a little.

I have a question on the F-15 that you are selling: from payment to delivery - how long? Can you PM the details to me?

Julio

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Dany what motor are you using? I am using a jet central super eagle turned down to 24lbs and i would not have a problem with 350 ft. If you are not sure if you can fly it at your local club field bring it to another field for the first few flights and than you will know that the Rafale is a sweet flying aircraft with no bad habbits as long as you keep the low speed above 40mph until you get some time on her. and if you have 24 lbs and above of thrust you will have lots of fun!!!


mikedenilin no flaps are used with the Rafale, setup canards per the manufacturers suggested throws and after a few flights you will fine tune them to your liking. you can bring this plane in at a very slow high AOA and touch down and roll out to a complete stop in under 100 ft.



Alan

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Alan,

Thanks for your input. I have a P-120 on the Rafale and beleive it should be adequate power on this jet.
As for flying field. This is the only available place to fly for time being where i live, this is why i am trying to gather maximum information trying to avoid unexpected/unpleasant surprises.

Julio,

Can you give more details on the servo delay setup you have, giving indication on the value used and if delay is set for canard only or both elevator and canard. I beleive you are using the Futaba 9Z on this jet same as I have.

Thanks again.
Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Dany go to youre cnd screen on the radio then to atv touch the nxt on the upper right of the screen that brings you to the servo delay screen. i have mine set at 91 for ail, elev, and flaps which is the canard expo at -40 for me its perfect because it moves the control surfaces at a better scale speed it flies very smooth reduces osilation on landings. like alan said this is a sweet flying aircraft and it flies even better with the missels

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Julio,

Thanks again for details, although i have flown with similar configuration in the past, i would be willing to try something new but how will i know that i have done setup correctly?
One more question regarding ailevons throws. I seem to have limited movement/deflection. Can you please advise yours?

Thanks. Regards.
Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Dany it sound like you have inserted your elevons to far into the wing which has limited your throws, i had to trim off the trailing edge of the wing to get the correct movement, i also modified the root section of the elevon by moving it back by 1/4 inch at the section that overhangs the wing. this allowed for full travel without bottoming out on the fuse.


Alan

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Alan,

How much ailevon movement are you able to acheive on your Rafale. I am able to move 25mm up and down with no binding. Would this be enough throw?

Thanks. Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Danny,

I have 30mm up on my elevator and 20mm on my ailerons. That is more than plenty, but I have full canard deflection.

Once you have input the last step on your servo delay screen, it automatically applies it to the plane. Try moving your ailerons and elevator and you will see that they move at a slower speed. On the servo delay screen, the higher the number the slower the speed of the servo. Like I said, 91 was perfect for me. Experiment with a range between 88 and 93.

Julio

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Julio,

Last night, i have tried to do some settings as per your advice but was not very happy with results.
My intention (correct me if i am wrong) is to have flaps activated by a 3 position switch, giving:
- neutral position
- half throw (trailing edge down) to be used for landing
- full defflection (trailing edge down) to be used on take off

Apply a constant PMIX Elevator / flap mixing with delay and expo.

Ultimately, also use a mix with gear to automatically ease canards to neutral after liftoff and retracting same.

PS I have tried the servo delay on the canards but i am only able to input figure by increments of 20 (0-20-40-60....)

I have right aleron in channel 1, left aileron in channel 2, canards in channel 6 (flp) activated by 3 position switch C
Elevator/ailerons activated by pre programmed ELEV on Futaba 9Z.

Appreciate your help once again, and thathanks forgiving my ignorance.

Regards. Dany

RE: FeiBao Rafale issues
 

Julio,

It's not clear to me what, if anything, you're gaining by slowing down the servos on your flight surfaces. It seems like the wrong thing to do. If you want your surfaces to move slowly then move the stick on your transmitter slowly. By using servo delay you cannot get a quick response when you need it. Am I missing something, please explain.

Joe