I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Last night I got a call from a friend of mine who was going to do the flight check of a new Avonds F15 the fully molded version complete will all scale options that belongs to a mutual friend of ours. I thought he was pulling my leg when he rang me but after I got out to his place last night the pictures tell the story. He was charging all the batteries to do a final complete check of all systems and do some engine runs today before the aircraft was test flown at Wangaratta Jets in a week and a half. All the batteries were finished charging except the Lipoly that runs the turbine and ECU. It was down to about 500ma of charge so he went inside to have a bite to eat and when he came back out to his shed the pictures show what he was confronted with. There have been a few threads on here about Lipoly batteries and I thought they must have been a rare case as I have never seen it myself. Never leave Lipoly batteries unattended until you disconnect your charger even if you think they are ok!!!!!. The PST reaction thread has a bit on it with one of the guys who was charging at the field after a flight and smoke started coming out of the model and I thought oh well its a rare thing well after this maybe its not.
You will note in the pics if you have keen eye that the Futaba 14MZ was left on top of the model. The heat that has been generated during the fire has melted all aluminium in the aircraft including the retract units. It is amazing the shed did not go up as you can see the 2 of 20ltr drums of fuel next to it but you can see the 205litr drum of fuel next to the 20litre one. The whole shed is covered in black soot including all the cobwebs. The rookie’s nose has been deformed and it was about 1 mtr away not to mention the large extra in the corner that has had the canopy deformed. The black battery which supplied the chargers is under the stand. We can not believe that the whole shed did not go up

I am going to replace all my Lipoly batteries now with A123 cells

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

More pics...the last one is of course what it used to look like

RIP

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

The question has to be asked, why the hell was he charging LiPoly's in the airframe? Has not heard they may catch fire and burn the model[&:]

really sorry for the loss.

jason

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

The Lipoly was installed in a place that was not easily got to for balance...so this is a big lesson to as you say always charge them outside the aircraft and make sure they are installed in a place where you can remove them easily for charging


Mark

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Dude that SUCK'S big time but you really can't blame the batteries it could have been the chargers falt or the operator of the charger.They Always say to charge your Lipolys out-side of the plane in a ceramic pot just incase of a fire. Lesson Learned i hope.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi

I am really sorry for this mishappening....

A123 seems to be a safer chice, but I am using Lipos since 4 years with no problems. However I only use 3 brands - TP, FP and kokan.

From the pics I don´t recognize a balancer. Was your friend using one?
Regards

Nuno

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

The charger is the black bit near the charger that looks reasonable....it was a swallow charger

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I dont think one type of batteries are any safer than any others. I do know one thing and now so does this owner, NEVER charge them in the model. I have seen Fromcos ignite, I have seen NiMH ignite, Lipos ignite, it does not matter the chemistry, they are all dangerous. Lesson learned, although a very expensive one, sorry for the loss.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I've got several LiPo setups that aren't easily removable from the aircraft therefore i never leave it unattended during a charge.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Jetnuni - Ian is exactly right, I have seen 2 out of your 3 listed brands explode into a fireball. Lipoly is lipoly....lipoly = dangerous if not monitored.

Simjet,

I am very sorry to hear (and see) that this happened. I am very hapy that there was not more damage, and even more so that no one was hurt. Do you mind if I ask; were the batteries being balance charged or not? While I have seen this happen several times, it was never when the batteries were being balance charged.

Sorry again for you and your friend's loss.

Chad

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi

I am really sorry for this mishappening....

A123 seems to be a safer chice, but I am using Lipos since 4 years with no problems. However I only use 3 brands - TP, FP and kokan.

From the pics I don´t recognize a balancer. Was your friend using one?
Regards

Nuno

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi Chad

I believe a swallow charger was being used which is not a balance charger. I have balance chargers here for my aircraft but I do not pull the batteries out to charge them...I will from now on until I change them all over. I was so shocked to see Peters F15 in this state...not to mention he lost his Futaba 14MZ as well it was sitting on top of the plane. as you can see it in one of the pics melted over the top of the turbine. It should be mandatory to charge them outside the aircraft. It was a expensive lesson for everyone involved I am just glad it wasn't me but I feel for the guys involved big time. My FEJ 1/7 scale F15 will have A123 powering it and the PST Reaction and Boomerang XL will be refitted as well. Its one of those things that you can see and say wow thats bad but it doesnt hit home until it happens to you or someone close and you see what the outcome is...It is a lesson I will never forget seeing


Mark

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Where was the balancer? This technology is available to us, why not use it?

Another idea.... Why not charge to 90% voltage. This will give longer life to the cells and reduce the risk of over voltage. For our Rec. and ECUs we do not require full voltage anyway, and in my opinion it is very easy to stuff plenty of milliamps in the aircraft. What do you think??

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi

Agree with you....lipos are lipos, but there are quality differences. In the past I have bought some cheaper chinese brands and found 2 main issues:

1 - They balloon during charge or in high amps discharge. That´s pretty scary.....
2 - Don´t last so many cycles in power drives. In receivers and ECUs it's not that important

Also, I dismanteled a 3S chinese pack and found both 15C and 25C in the same pack[&:] - serial wired.

I always use balancer and quite often charge the packs in the model. Well, they use to say that wisdon comes from to learn with other peoples mistakes and intelligence to learn with your own mistakes.

Insanity - make the same mistake twice.

I'll just take them out of the planes and away to the safety box...........

Regards

Nuno

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

No doubt, A123 packs are the way to go. After having built and sold over 1500 A123 packs, I am comfortable that their safety record will continue to stay spotless.

IF you are going to run Lipos, BALANCE CHARGE them. While this is still no guarantee they will not explode, every time I have seen (or heard) this occur, the batteries were NEVER on a balance charger.

Battery Rules
1. Run A123's
2. See #1
3. If you skipped 1 & 2, and you have to run lipos, balance charge.
4. Get rid of the lipos and run A123's.
5. Buy more jets and outfit them with A123's.

Sorry again for your friend's loss.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

The other question that hasn't been asked is 'was the charger set up correctly?'.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Yes the guy who was charging it knows all about that and is very experienced....the only issue was complacency on all our parts about charging the batteries in the aircraft

Mark

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hate to see that.

Any possibility it was the lead acid battery that caught first and the resulting spill that ran underneath is what started the plane ?

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

First, I'm really sorry for your friend's loss and will be more careful with all my lipos. Thanks for posting this as it helps all of us avoid this situation.

I believe the other issue was to not use a balancer. Balancer are not optional with Lipos. If one cell is bad, the charger will overcharge the good cells, and this might lead to a fire.

I plan to replace all my lipos with A123. What is the best brand / charger out there?

Arnaud

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Brand of the batteries ?

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

From the looks of the shop, he should consider himself lucky that the one plane and radio were all that was lost. bummer deal all around though.

Kevin

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

"I will never use lipoly batteries again"

Sorry for your loss but I've seen the same thing happen with NICADs. Don't blame the batteries.....
Mark, you hit the nail on the head........complacency.......we've all done it Mate and sometimes we don't get away with it.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

True, all batteries can be overcharged/short and get very hot- but none of the other chemistries shoot out a 2000 degree F plume of fire that lasts about 4 seconds-plenty long enough to catch everything else close by on fire. I have had Nicds and Nimhs go bad and the did get very , very hot and melted surrondings but did not catch fire. It is A123s for me, I love them. I also accidently did a overcharge melt down test on a two cell pack when I did not change the cell selection down from 3s. The two cell was hot off the charger so the charger didnt warn me the voltage was too low- All 123s do when you murderize them is the negative cap pops off and releases the goo. Much better than the 2000 degree flamethrower.
Sorry for the fire, but man you were SO lucky given everything else in the shed. Scotty

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I assume there was no fuel in the plane. Now that would have been nasty...

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I use lipomanganese, don't get hot, don't short, don't need recycling, plenty of spare power. However, still take them out as that is more convenient. That loss is a bad one.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

from the pics i figuered it was full, not much else in there to cause enough burn duration for that much damage.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

There was no fuel in the plane at all just about 20 litres 1 mtr from it and a further 150 litres just behind the 20 litres.... The pack must have been a 2000 deg 4 second flame thrower as was said before


Mark

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

OK, one tip for that might be helpful.

I have a Lipo battery that is difficult to reach in my F-84G.

I use the latest Graupner Lipo charger that have a temperature sensor built in like many recent chargers.
I have permanently taped a temperature sensor on the remote battery and have made a charge terminal available from the outside which includes:

The balance plug ( extended )
The temperature sensor plug ( regular servo plug )
The charge line

When I want to charge this battery, I just plug everything and go for a balanced charge with thermal protection.
The safety temperature is set at 40°c.
The battery is packed in a ceramic blanket pocket sealed with aluminium tape.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I always keep the Lipos out of models and have them stored in steel containers. It would also be ideal if you can charge them in open space or contained in steel container if charging at home. I also keep these steel containers out of my house.

Really sorry for the loss [&o]
Kraivuth S.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi we lose a BARF with A123, in our JETS we only use NICAD and NIMH (for the time being), in the future we change to others, but, until it to arrive we go in the certainty!

sorry man, I know what you fell!!!!! [sm=disappointed.gif]

jose

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi Mark,

I agree fully with you comment concerning use of a BALANCING type charger with LiPo's.

This event is an eye opening experiance and a heck of a reminder !

Truely sorry to see this type of loss. I'm gald that the building and the other contents are still in tack.

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Hi
I use LiPo alot and they need to be treated with alot of respect and not get lulled into a false sense of security. A liPo should always be charged out of the airframe. If that isnt possible then use a different type of battery.
All my LiPos are charged in the Graupner fireproof box. Expensive but for peace of mind it is cheap at twice the price.

M

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

For anyone having any difficulty finding a suitable steel / ceramic container that you can store & charge your batteries in, you may want to look at this product http://www.liposack.com/

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Jose,

You should probably clarify. You did not lose a BARF ro an A123 fire, right? I think you had said before you did not charge them??

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I finally was able to find the 14Mz in the pics - wow... [:@] Sorry for the loss. I wasn't even aware you could charge LiPos without the balance leads connected. I've never tried it without, but this is reason enough to never try).

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

[size=3]I believe the overridding question is; Should anyone who charges LiPo's in an airplane even be involved with R/C Jets?!?!?! Very poor judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

Oh, sure you can. In fact, I have many hundreds of cycles on quite a slew of Thunder Power packs and I never use a balance charger - just a simple Triton 2 or Astro Flight LiPo charger with a single input to the discharge lead. I have the Thunder Power balancer, which is a passive device (i.e., you plug it into the pack and it uses the higher cells to charge up the lower ones) and I've never had a pack that was more than a few tenths of a volt out of balance - which the TP balancer takes care of in about 5 minutes or less.

The only fires I've had were with packs that were obviously over discharged, or over charged. That being said, LiPo fires are so stupendous (as evidence posted in this thread suggests) that I always treat them if they are about to explode at any minute - especially when being charged or after discharge until they have reached the point of room temperature... I have a scorched benchtop in my lab that is proof enough for me (a student who was not LiPo savvy charged a 1320 MAh pack at 5 amps on the Astro Flight charger - poof!).

Bob

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I've been flying hi-powered edfs for about 5 years. I have always used LiPo batteries since way back when they first hit the market. One thing we have learned is to never charge LiPos without using an active balancer and never charge LiPos with a charger that does not communicate with the balancer. If one of the cells is out of balance with the others in the pack, an active balancer will shut the charger down if that cell becomes over charged. With a passive balancer or no balancer if one of the cells becomes over charged, you most likely will get the results shown at the beginning of this thread.

There are only a hand full of LiPo cell manufactures. Companies like Thunder Power and Flight Power purchase there cells from these manufactures and only purchase cells that are matched in resistance. The other companies buy the left over, rejected cells and that is why batteries from those companies don't last or hold up. Those cells get out of balance under load and become easily puffed, overheated, or outright dangerous. With LiPo batteries, you do get what you pay for.

Kirk

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I have years of experience with Lipos LiFe's (A123).. I would say the only possibility to explode Lipos is if you deliberately charge these batteries with a wrong program such as a NiCD and/or NiMh since these programs do not limit voltage. Without thi limitation when the battery reaches 4,2 V/cell it continues to demand higher voltages and finally explodes...

Murat Bukey

RE: I will never use Lipoly batteries again
 

I am a newbie with LiPos - I have about 5 packs now. I prefer to have the people that absolutely have-to-have the latest stuff thoroughly try all the dumb stuff and post it on RCU, so I can learn from their mistakes. ;)