Rudder question
 

Ok. I have never done a poll before but wanted to get the opinions of jet flyers. See this whole thing was sparked by a discussion with a friend about flying. He stated that most jet pilots don't use rudder during a normal flight except for maybe take off and landing. I am very interested in seeing the numbers on this one.

Patrick

RE: Rudder question
 

It depends on the occation. I never used rudder other than takeoff and landing on a 1/8 F-16 until one taileron servo failed and the rudder was used to bring the plane out of a death spiral. The rudder saved the day.

RE: Rudder question
 

Sort of hard to fly knife edge without a Rudder.

RE: Rudder question
 

I love snaps and spins. They are my "thing" and I do them every flight.

RE: Rudder question
 

I'm constantly flying using the rudder. mostly b/c its a 90% chance we will have a cross-wind at our field, and if you aren't using rudder, your not doing it right. then in flight i'll use it for spins, snaps, knife-edge, sllllooooowwww rolls, etc..

RE: Rudder question
 

So as I write this the poll says 41% of us use the rudder for the entire flight..What utter rubbish! I'd say that at least 8 of of 10 jet pilots cannot use the rudder properly. I see it at every jet meet I go to, on landing the line correction while the plane is flying towards the pilot is done on ailerons and elevator then as soon as the plane in on the ground pointing away from them the rudder miraculously starts to work. Sorry guys but some of you 41%ers are dreamers.

Jason

RE: Rudder question
 

I'm one of the remaining 2 because i know what it's for and i use it the entire flight and can't imagine NOT using it, i flew helis for a good 10 yrs before i got into jets, guess that made it just second nature to me.

RE: Rudder question
 

I agree with KC. I even picked up helis to make me a better rudder pilot.

RE: Rudder question
 

Your right KC, if you fly helis and then go to a plane you feel strange NOT using the rudder ! However, I do see a lot of plane pilots that do not use rudder out at the field.

RE: Rudder question
 

oh believe me i see it allot too, our main club filed is 2200' x 800' of concrete, we've got people who have been flying for 50+ yrs who can't use the left stick for anything other than ground taxi and throttle adjustments (and sometimes not even those), if the wind changes direction, they'll turn and fly in the direction of the wind because the field is of such a size that they can and if they go to a location that requires you to fly with a cross wind, they don't fly or they crash trying :)

RE: Rudder question
 

I'm glad my club isn't the only one with this issue. It drives me insane watching guys trying to land their 1/3 scale cubs that are crabbing into the wind by aileron rolling into the wind and touching down on one wheel. All the while the thing is now pointed at the flight line and pilot stations..[:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]

RE: Rudder question
 

Well I would say that unless you live in the land of OZ where there is no cross wind it might be a good thing to learn to use.

RE: Rudder question
 

If this guys keeped flying for 50+ years, they already have my respect,no matter they didn´t use the left stick at all. :)

and if someone can land decently his jet without breaking it, who cares if it uses rudder or not? Many jets don´t react to a rudder input like you guys are talking about.. In a F-15 you got more opposite rolling than yaw, a F-16 can´t be snapped and the list goes on and on.

IMO the only occation that rudder is any worth on a jet, in his true form is from recovering from some problem or doing a nice low knife edge or slow roll over the runway with a plane suited for
that, like the big Viperjet (wich is currently being built for me to this purpose, by the way.. hehehe)

RE: Rudder question
 

Ditto - I didn't even realise just how much of the time I use rudder, until one of my spotters pointed out that my left thumb & forefinger hardly ever stay still. That made me aware of just how subconscious much of my rudder use is - I mean, I knew that I use it on knife-edges, all manner of rolling maneuvers, snaps, sideslips, landing approach etc - but I hadn't realised how much I use it even for straight & level flight. Its use is so ingrained that I just do it without thinking.

Now, if only I could make sure that I always use the CORRECT rudder input, life would be good. I still mess up occasionally during inverted flight. [X(]

Gordon

RE: Rudder question
 

Hah......50 or so years ago (1961) rudder was the ONLY control for most guys..........
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...26tbs%3Disch:1

Reeds or Galloping Ghost anyone?
-Mike

RE: Rudder question
 

I get the impression from several posts that some, maybe many, people think that you hold on into-wind rudder during crosswind flying, or a crosswind approach. No-one has said it explicitly but several imply that you should be holding on rudder in crosswinds. Is that what you actually think or have I got the the wrong impression from several of the posts?
H.

RE: Rudder question
 

I have touched the rudder on occasion, usually during moments of blind panic when trying to close throttle or find switches.

RE: Rudder question
 

Actually its opposite rudder in the crosswind with aileron into the wind.

I do think alot of jet guys crab into the wind and just use rudder for sliding right or left to hit the runway, which is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. Thats the way the fighters do it. That I do know from personal experience. The f-16 lands in a crab.

With swept wing airplanes, If you use the rudder too aggressively at low speed and high angles of attack, it will induce roll. So yes it is used, but judiciously..

RE: Rudder question
 

With my Comp-ARF Flash, I use the rudder for knife edge, 4-pt and slow rolls, blender into an inverted flat spin, and snaps. For my scale jets, other then knife edge and slow rolls, just on take off and landings.

RE: Rudder question
 

How weird is this...I have always used 5-10% opposite rudder on all turns.

RE: Rudder question
 

Some day those non rudder users will learn how to fly!

RE: Rudder question
 

WRONG! Rudder is used to co-ordinate turns. Banking causes the nose to yaw in the opposite direction. The rudder is used to bring the nose back to the desired direction of the turn. When flying full scale the term used is step on the ball. That is the turn co-ordinator for those that don't fly full size aircraft. Using top rudder will lead to a stall, eventually.

RE: Rudder question
 

I thought the rudder was for steering on the ground…. Just kidding my instructor beat it in to me so I use at least some during most turns and on landing etc. I appreciate it on those cross wind days at a event. It allows me to fly when others are sitting out.

RE: Rudder question
 

Seek out, buy and read the book Stick and Rudder. Amazing stuff! The rudder is big medicine.

RE: Rudder question
 

Step on the ball is a new one on me, the rudder application would be too late by the time the ball has moved to give a coordinated turn, the way I used to instruct it was as you move the stick get the knee out of the way.

Adverse Yaw is caused by the down going aileron causing more drag than the up going aileron therefore the nose goes in the opposite direction to the turn and needs rudder to coordinate the turn correctly.

Mike

RE: Rudder question
 

Totaly agree

Some jets dont like rudder input duing flight. Try knife edging a F-18 or Eurofighter. New poll (Jets that dont like rudder input during flight) ;).

RE: Rudder question
 

Actually i've flown a few (horribly built) RC airplanes that required Opposite rudder to keep it co-orridnated in a turn. So i wouldn't just say he's flat out "wrong" just maybe one of his planes has some weird quirks to them.

RE: Rudder question
 

Depends on the plane. Jets were not specified, nor were model planes, but I guess that's what was intended from the forum title. Some posters seem to have gone on to full size discussion.

Full size prop aircraft use rudder all the time to coordinate turns.

On full size jet transports (I flew 747, 757, 767, L1011, HS Trident) the rudder is used during take off, remove drift on landing, and in the event of engine failure. Unless an engine fails they are just foot rests.
Jet fighters may be different, I'll let the military pilots speak for themselves.

Flying models, I use rudder on take off, knife edge, spin, stall turn type manoeuvres and that's about all. I don't think balancing tuns is relevant on jets (or fast aerobatic prop planes).

RE: Rudder question
 

Don't know how the model reacts because I built my Eurofighter without a rudder, but in the full size at high angles of attack the flight control system uses the rudder as the aileron control but not in the direction you might at first expect - pilot applies right stick so the FCS minimises the aileron travel and applies left rudder. Think about it - with a rudder all above the centreline, left rudder is the same as right aileron. fly-by-wire fighters tend to have short moment arms for the tail fin/rudder, which reduces the rudder's yawing effect compared to a longer moment arm on a conventionally stable aircraft.
H

RE: Rudder question
 

Try turning a full size glider without using the rudder, high aspect ratio wings, ailerons out at the tips means massive adverse Yaw that has to be counteracted so its not just prop aircraft that use the rudder all the time, and some of them are so clean you have to side slip them in just to loose height thats when you get opposite control inputs, landing in a cross wind is rudder the nose into wind, opposite aileron to keep the wings level take off the rudder just before touch down.

Mike

RE: Rudder question
 

To the guys using rudder and the guys not using rudder... so long as you're having fun and enjoying the hobby at your own level is all that matters.

</p>

RE: Rudder question
 

that's because the flight control computer is flying the rudder for you, only because a few pilots felt the need to hard bang the peddles on a few scary emergency instances and snapped the tail off killing all onboard (airbus in particular had several), now the FCC controls it and as airspeed increases the full peddle deflection of rudder (what you as the pilot, still have control of at the peddles) is drastically reduced to prevent more people from dieing because of snapped off tails.


as Mike touched on, wing design has allot to do with how plane XXX responds to rudder inputs, i've got one jet in particular that hard rudder gives a roll in the opposite direction of the rudder input.

RE: Rudder question
 

Guys,buy yourself a ziroli DC-3,that puppy will teach you what rudders are made for.
Iv had the honour of doing a few hours on a full size L39 and the only time rudder is used is on take off,landing and taxi,that said however small inputs of rudder definetly make a smoother flight.
If rudders were only meant for taxi we would only have a steerable nose wheel.i was lucky when i started flying,all my training aircraft had so much adverse aileron yaw that rudder needed to be used,if not i would be fetching aircraft in the mielies every flight.

RE: Rudder question
 

many years of flying Heli's has conditioned me to always use my rudder.


Alan

RE: Rudder question
 

Talking about Ziroli´s DC-3 a friend of mine wich is a very active jet modeler many years ago built one of this and most of our club followed to see the maiden flight of this aircraft in a small city near ours wich has a suitable and calm airport.. Engines checked and synchronized, (two kioritz engines),Kraft radio tested and range checked for hours and hours in the ground, a lot of people watching, everything went well until one engine quit and the inevitable stall and spin happened over a barn near the airport..

Right at this point a pretty sizeable crowd of locals gathered to see the wreck, but when my friends arrived at the barn, there was a note at the door telling that the owner has passed away that same day and there was nobody there. After some time thinking on what to do to recover the model and asking to some locals if someone knew where to contact somebody related to the barn owner , a large crowd arrived at the airport among the firefighters and a ambulance with the sirens on.. the news on the city spread quickly that a giant airplane DC3 crashed at the airport and there was at least one dead !



this has nothing to do with this thread poll at all, but it was fun for me to remember anyways...;)

RE: Rudder question
 

step on the ball is an old trick to always know which rudder input you need without thinking.

RE: Rudder question
 

The rudder is the first and last surface to work on an airplane. On my vertical to split-s I've gotten it so slow the ailerons don't do anything.. Roll it with rudder and your on your way. Rudder will save your butt big time if you have the quick mental to use it.


Danno

RE: Rudder question
 

Which is why I asked the question earlier as I know many model fliers completely misunderstand the rudder and crosswinds, and do the wrong thing. And what you have said there is completely the wrong thing, you do not rudder into wind. In fact what you have described with wings level is not even a sideslip. Holding on rudder while keeping the wings level will give you a control-line turn, not a straight flight. A sideslip approach is to bank with ailerons into wind, then use rudder away from the wind to stop the plane turning. So a sideslip approach uses rudder away from, not into, the wind.
Harry

PS. I never recommend a sideslip approach. You don't sideslip any other part of the flight when it is "crosswind" so why do it on the approach? Just fly the approach the same way you would fly a pass along the runway in a cross wind - turn the plane in the normal manner ever so slightly into wind. That way all the control are at neutral, you are not having to hold on crossed rudder and aileron, it is much easier to judge, much easier to cope with gusts, and you are not putting the plane into pro-spin controls of slow speed and applied rudder. All you need to do is apply a dab of rudder away from the wind at the point of touching down in order to yaw the plane back onto the runway heading.

RE: Rudder question
 

that's one of the funnest approaches you can do to loose tremendous altitude quickly without gaining airspeed.

RE: Rudder question
 

But that's a different thing to a crosswind approach. Using sideslip to burn off height is nothing to do with a crosswind. It can be done in flat calm and you can choose to slip left or right. A normal approach dealing with a crosswind is a different matter.