Chuck and Arch

I totally agree with you both. That said, what is wrong with the way Joe's District does it allowing a choice and adjusting F-11 "K" factors to equal those of the P-11 for scoring purposes. If everyone wants to fly F-11 they can and anyone wanting to fly P-11 has that option.

Dick

Because our FAI class is so competitive, I think the results in our case would be inaccuarate.

Chuck

Different topic.

I flew the new proposed short sequence about 6 flights today. I find it to be a very good pattern with the right amount of mix for the Masters class. If the short sequence is what we end up having to fly, this is a very good one. Kudos to all involved in making this happen!

I guess the results sometimes from stirring the pot is that the stew gets better.

"Because our FAI class is so competitive, I think the results in our case would be inaccuarate."


Chuck

No offense, but that's a bogus answer and says nothing. What makes you believe our District FAI pilots are more competitive in nature than other districts? Joe already indicated that there experience with flying both P&F had little effect on out comes. All it did was allow choice for both groups! I'm not sure I understand what your objections are?? I am not saying we should or should not consider it but rather what might be the objections to using that type of format. There may very well be valid problems that would make the system objectionable and that's what the discussion is about.

Regards
Dick

Dick, maybe competitive was a poor choice of words, how about contested. Our FAI Pilots all fly very well, and each one on any given day can put up a round winning flight.

For instance, maneuver 3

P K factor 3 : F K factor 6

This could decide the round on its own.
Chuck

Dick,

I think that it does work. That's what we do here in D1. Basically though, you are just letting the other guys fly. They really can't win a contest, so if they are OK with that, then it shouldn't be an issue. I know of contests in D6 a couple of years ago that exact same thing was done. The guys flew, were scored, but down there they just didnt count them toward the total for the contest. Knowing the CD's in D6 like I do, I don't think anyone would say "no you can't do that" if anyone just asked. No one wants to see planes torn up.

Arch

The P and F should be flow at local contests. If you can't fly the F then move back to Masters. The Master and the P are pretty much the same as far as difficulty is concerned. What is the big deal?

"If you can't fly the F then move back to Masters"

Ron

Please re-read my post #40 on page 2. It's not totally about wheather or not someone can or cannot fly F-11! It's about choice so long as it keeps the playing field level. I totally agree that flying F-11 on Sunday has benefits to those that aspire to reach the finals at the Nat's, but if they can accomplish that and allow others to compete at local contests without drastically altering the results. Why Not !!

Dick

Chuck

I don't think that is how they alter the "K" factors. Maybe Joe or Arch can chime in on how this is accomplished?

Dick

I still don't understand why someone would want to move to FAI if they don't want to fly the F sequence. Like I said the Masters and P are basically the same. If you have the equipment to fly Masters you have the equipment to fly the F. Sure you may fly the F better with the best equipment but you can still fly the F. The quality of your equipment and the size of your pocket book always play a factor in your ability to compete. If I were a CD I would be resistent to monkeying with the scoring system to accomodate FAI pilots who don't want to fly F. If all the FAI pilots don't want to fly F then I would accomodate that request.

I need to put this in perspective more. We really don't have a large crop of FAI pilots in the Northeast. Only in a few instances do we have more than 3 or 4 and that is up north in the district when some Canadians venture down. In some contests, all fly both and there is no issue whatsoever. In the case of the contest I ran all flew both. We also eliminated the rolling circle because of overfly issues (beach across the river) and the pilots substituted something else. I don't remember what. In the end we used the best 3 out 4 P-sequences and the best one out of two F sequences to determine placement. IF someone opted to just fly P, the K-factors would not be altered. It didn't matter. Usually those who can fly both are the ones that would have placed if only P were flown anyway.

Ron
As I stated in post #40 Masters & P-11 are not the same because the Masters schedule does not have any intergal rolling maneuvers. Granted in P-11 they are pretty basic but they are there and provide a steeping stone to F-11 which contains extremely sophisticated and difficult intergal rolling maneuvers like the intergrated horizontal loop with four rolls in opposite direction.

P is not meant to be a stepping stone for F. FAI pilots are expected to be able to fly both or they should fly masters. I know several FAI

P is not meant to be a stepping stone for F. FAI pilots are expected to be able to fly both. If you can't fly F then fly masters. I know several FAI pilots that fly F that just take a few zeros and fly higher when flying F. I'm actually quite surprised at how well they do fly F.

F was not ment for local contests by design. It was ment for World Championships and then adopted in the US for the team finals and then by the Nat's. By the rules it is not nor was it ever intended to be incorporated into local contest.

Hey Arch
How do you guys handle the "K" factor difference flying both P&F.
Thanks
Dick

Looks like a fun sequence thanks guys.

Actually, that is incorrect. There is a section of the F3A rules that specifically say that at local contests of 4 or more rounds that the F pattern can be used. Here it s,

Note 1: Final and semi-final flights to determine the individual winner are usually only required for
World and Continental Championships. For open international events, national championships, and
domestic competitions, the total of the three best preliminary flights may be used to determine the
individual winner and team placing. Further flights of Schedule F may be planned, depending on
local conditions and time available.

I flew through the new proposed sequence with Steve Hannah calling for me. We both really like it! His comment was that he's going to fly it some so that if he's at a meet where he's the only F3A pilot he would fly Masters instead.

The more I fly this schedule the more I like it. It is an excellent pattern. Thanks again!

I think it's great. Early practice sessions next spring!
I can see the need to be very prepared too. Nice job guys. Mike

Better start now, Mike. It's harder than it looks on paper! The warm-weather guys have all winter to get ready.

Verne

With models perhaps, but with full-scale airplanes, you can quite easily reverse a spin direction without unstalling the airplane. Doing so with precision? Yeah.. probably not possible.

"Further flights of Schedule F may be planned, depending on local conditions and time available."

Hi Tony

Thanks for posting the actual rule. I think I was more right than wrong as the rule was intended more for World & International event finals but does allow local use under certain curcumstances which many have interpeted as "advance notice " by event CD's.

I have not flown competive Pattern Aerobatics in over 12 years which means I missed the introduction of intergrated rolling manuvers so I decided to fly FAI to get some experience with the basic "Rollers" in P-11. I am almost 65 years of age and have no illisions of making the finals at the Nat's so for me, and I suspect others, the equipment, time, and expense of flying F-11 just isn"t there. So I am left with making a decision to move to Masters [which has no rollers], fly one day events, or determine if there is some type of format that could accomodate flying both P & F at local contests. From the response thus far, even if it existed, I doubt it would be utilized! Anyway, thanks for posting the rule and by the way, I ordered both the power supply and charger you recommended.

Looks like Masters Nat's competition will be "Heating -Up" if Bill starts flying Pattern again!

Thanks
Dick

ooofff...just stumbled onto this thread.. With regards to the P and F format at local contests:

The NSRCA has no official say in what type of format the CD chooses to use. I can lobby on the part of the NSRCA to district 6 CD's, but ultimately its up to each of them to decide how they wish to run their contest. If there is enough influence, I'm sure the CD would be inclined to change the current format to one that better fits his participants. If the format is not generally well received, he will change or likely lose entry/participation.

Personally, I like the current format (drop one P from Sat., add one F). On some occasions, the F sequence flying may be mediocre...espescially if I were the only FAI pilot signed up. On other occassions, some great, competitive flying occurs on Sunday. If I wanted to fly the P on sunday, I'm sure the judges would be happy to judge me as such, so that I could analyze my own raw scores to improve/perfect my P pattern flying. However, I would expect that round to be scored as "null" in the scoring system so as not to effect the outcome of those who want to compete with/against one another in the F pattern on Sunday.

If the majority sooner or later wishes not to fly the F on Sunday, I'm sure CD's will begin to accomodate that.

BTW, both of the proposed masters patterns look very challenging and well thought out.

-mark

Hey Mark

I am not advocating at all not flying F-11 on Sunday as I think there are many many benefits of doing so for the guys aspiring to go to the Nat's and make the finals. My original question was there a system that would allow a choice for Sundays FAI two rounds that would allow the flying of P-11 against the F-11? Arch & Joe responded there was and they use the system in their districts and it had little effect on out come and did let both groups fly. I am not sure exactly how they did it but it appears they used some format to adjust the "K" factors in F-11 to be equal to those of P-11 but not sure of that.

I don't know if this would create any more difficulties in scoring than we already have flying F-11 on Sunday or not. I think at this point I may work up an actual formatt just to see if it can be done or, if it can, is it worth the hassel.

I like the new Short Masters Pattern also, I just wish it had some very basic "intergrated rollers" that would allow a learning progression to FAI. As I stated in an earlier post, there is a huge step-up from masters to F-11 in schedule complexity, equipment, expense, and time required to become competent! Maybe that's as it should be! Anyway thanks for the reply.

Dick

After watching Jeff fly this sequence today I have to say it's interesting. However........................


#15 needs to be renamed to a Humpty Bump on the Corner. That is what it really is. Easier to call as well.