ryansdad40

All this hype about all these new arfs, synergys, quests,,and so on and on,, flown a few,, but built a super kaos and a mach 1 recently,, well needless to say all those arfs set aside,, does anyone still fly this good ole stuff?? besides the spa. if only most would try a old kaos,, beats the heck out of all these new fangled things,, kaos tracks and is rock steady in comparison. just want to know if the good ole planes are a disappearing breed??

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Seems that they are a dying breed. I know I couldn't compete with a kaos. Sad to say. I remember flying one when I was young though. Ahhhhhhhhh, the good ole days.

MrSteve09

Dear Ryan's Dad,...

Amen!! I'm with you on this. I'm just as happy flying a tricked out Kaos or older pattern design. In fact,... just the other day I sat down with a few older RCM back issues and stared at the pattern designs from the yesterday. What ever happened to the affordable competition planes??

To be honest,.... I'm probably just overcompensating for the fact that I can't afford these new fangled pattern designs and am trying to be satisfied with the .40 sized Dirty Kaos that I'm campaigning around District 1 in Intermediate category.

In any case,... I'm out there trying my best with what I've got!!

Signed,
Steve T.

tipo750

The Kaos was the first pattern plane for many of us. My first .60; my first nitro pipe; my first trimming job; my first vertical takeoff, etc. I'm actually thinking of getting back into competition with a Dirty Birdy, just for the fun of it... this hobby is supposed to be fun isn't it?

MrSteve09

Hey Tipo 750,...

Boy, you got me all excited when you mentioned building a Dirty Birdy!! Have you had any thoughts how you would build it, (wood or fiberglass fuse./ built-up or foam wing)??

How about, what engine would you put in it?? I've always had thoughts about using a 91 Surpass in a built-up wooden Dirty Birdy. Using a tail dragger configuration with retracts would be a splendid combination !! Those are just my thoughts on what I'd consider the perfect Dirty Birdy. I'd like to hear what you think??

In fact that is what got me into this crazy game we call "pattern flying". A good friend gave me a "modified" DB with an inverted 91 Surpass and retracts. Awesome flying plane!! Can't wait to build another!!

Signed,
Steve T
"Huge Dirty Birdy Fan"

majortom-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

I am a huge fan of the Bridi line, still have a few Chaos (Utter, Killer) kits + a Dirty Birdy that I am saving for a special treat for myself (when I stop crashing). They do fly great, but I can't agree that they outfly today's pattern ARF's. Comparing $ for $, and discounting building time, of course they nose out the ARF's. But for maybe 2-3x the $ but way less building time (= more flying time) a Zen or a Quest shaves the whiskers off the old boys. Nostalgia is sweet, and an oldie-but-goodie with today's equipment and good thumbs can be a formidable competitor, but you can't sell the ARF's short. They aren't junk anymore.

Jon Wold

I've been campaigning a Calypso 60 all summer, and I've built and flown a Supra Fly 25. I can't get enough of the Classics!
Also have a Killer Kaos which has served me very well indeed.

I have a real problem with the 2 meter rule, not in FAI but in the lesser classes I long to see perhaps an 1.8meter/4 kg max rule to keep the costs down and recruiting up! Recent Norweigan nats showed a clear trend towards Alliances and Caprises being flown in the Nordic class (1 level below FAI) and only three models in that class were 60 or 90 powered.

I have a dream to build a 60 or 90 size Supra Fly from my .25 plans. Maybe This winter perhaps :-)

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

I love the old one's too. I just lost a .40 Kaos, but have a Dirty Birdi started. I also have an Utter Kaos in the box as well as a short kit for my all-time favorite, the Taurus. The old ones are not dead. Just look at the SPA; I wish there was a chapter in my area.

These planes are still competitive in good hands through intermediate, but they would have a very difficult time against the modern designs in the higher classes. It really cannot be denied that the modern two meter planes fly better.

jamesjoneill

Yes I agree totally with you bokuda. The older style planes are superb models and fly really well, but they really can't hold their own against the modern style. There will always be a place for them, just as many people still own and get immense joy from flying the vintage models like the junior 60. But to successfully compete now you really need something more modern. They don't have to be expensive either.

I don't want to go on about them too much (see the original post...) but really, the Synergy 90 almost-ready-to-cover version is a very reasonable price, would fly well with an OS 91fx and is 95% of it's 2m, $3000 version. Indeed on a calm day you'd be hard pushed to tell them apart and even in the wind they are pretty close. Affordable, modern competitive pattern flying really is possible.

CranstonSnord

I had a Taurus and an Arrow. They were fun. The new Synergy 90 you mentioned can outfly any of these old designs hands down and can do a lot more, but the old pattern designs make wonderful sport airplanes for those who like to fly the ancient programs or get into pattern at the sportsman/intermediate level.

Quite surprisingly, the Synergy is quite competative right into the P-05 sequences flown at regional levels, it just does not present as well as the 2 meter Synergy which is an absolutley outrageous, bordering on perfect, airplane.

As far as cost goes, I remember about 23 years ago, those old patternships were extremely expensive compared to "other" airplanes. Cost is a very relative thing. My Arrow, set up to the max, was about five times the cost of my sport airplanes at the time.

Frankly, I would not go back for nostalgia any more, but they are still available for those who like them.

ryansdad40

all you guys lifted my spirits!! guess im not alone loving these old planes!!,, and i was not trashing the new type planes,, simply stating they are different,, and much more expensive,, but how can you beat a killer kaos for 70 bucks!! wish someone would buy out bridi design and keep em going,
i guess its what you get used to,, i have a guest,, and never fly it now that my kaos is done,, to me it flys better and smother, im glad that you guys that like the NEW stuff better still have a place in your heart for nostalgia,, i know i do as im doing a compensator right now,, remember that one!!!,,,jeff

maac16324

My Feedback: (6)

They way I see it is that a Kaos or any of the old breed are 95% fun and 5% cost. The new breed is 95% cost and 5% fun. In competition is should be that "thumbs rule" but the reality is that you have to be flying the newest big iron to get the scores.

Just my .02!

jamesjoneill

I know what you are trying to say but in fact, if you go to any competition these days (certainly to any of the UK comps I go to) the pilot that wins is still the pilot with the best fingers. Yes you need a modern competitive plane but that was always the case. And yes if you gave any of our top pilots from any of our countries a design from twenty years ago, not one would do half as well as they are doing.

As previously stated, if you are after a fun weekend sports flyer that is just that little bit better than you average sport model then they are great. But for competition they are no good above the entry level.

None of this should take anything away from the skill of the guys doing this at the top of our sport!! And they certainly aren't 5% fun, they are 500% fun. Ask anyone who has one!

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

My first two pattern planes were G.P. Super Kaos's. I used the second one to win my first pattern meet in Novice. That was a sweet flying plane. I now have an Ultimate Kaos with a YS and Spring Air's that's currently moth balled. That too is a very good flying model.

John

Deadstik

My Feedback: (8)

I agree with everyone who said that the old birds don't fly like the new 2M ships... but.. you've got to love how they fly !!

I have recently gotten into "restoring" old pattern birds and have a Taurus, a Tiporare, and a plane called a Taurion which is a Taurus wing on an Orion fuselage. When I first started flying R/C in 1963 the "Taurion" was the first plane I had ever seen w/retracts... obviously a starship compared to my Jr. Falcon/Controlaire combo. I recently acquired that plane after not seeing it since 1965.....and am restoring/rebuilding all of them to like new...yes silk/dope/filler/talcum....everything!!..

Glad to know others are out there that still love these old birds. I just got a line on an Eyeball that needs TLC....so.I will post some pics as they are restored...

If you have an old bird, don't throw it out ... send it my way...


Deadstik

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

For those following this thread and are not currently flying in pattern:

The main reason that the older planes have a hard time is the change in pattern rules to turnaround and the "box." The older planes are just too fast for this type of flying.

I was out practicing today with my only flying pattern plane, a .60 two-stroke powered ARF. It does all of the Sportsman maneuvers well, but it flies fast and is very difficult to keep in the box. When it is kept in, there is very little time after the turnaround to set up for the next maneuver. The new planes fly much more slowly; in fact are deliberately built with lots of drag to slow them down. This keeps them in the box and allows time to set up for centered maneuvers.

As far as expense goes, there are a number of fully capable modern pattern designs available for reasonable prices. The Quest is an ARF that is available for $225 on ebay (where I got mine) or $250 from Creek's website. http://www.creekhobbies.com/

As little as a year ago I would not consider an ARF. I consider myself a builder and snubbed the ARF's. But the quality and prices are so good, they are hard to resist and I now have three of them with another on the way. Many can be bought as cheaply or cheaper than it would cost to build them.

For kits, a good example is the Widebody .60 available from Planes Plus. http://www.planesplus.com/ This plane will do well with a .91 four stroke.

I'm sure there are others. We can enjoy both worlds of pattern at reasonable prices. We don't have to give up building either! Even for a modern 2-meter design. I'm just completing a Typhoon 2000 built from plans. My progress is being posted on this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...54&forumid=232

Do whatever is fun for you! That's what it's all about!!

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Yes, indeed old designs hold a sweet spot in my heart. I find flying older designs very rewarding. My family finds my older designs as being financially responsible. Ever compare college costs to the price of the latest and greatest pattern model? When I was a kid during the seventies I was happy I could afford a Kaos with a G60 and the precious cargo of a Proline radio. Today, I get more of a kick flying almost any old design then today's yo yo sport airplanes. I'll take fast and smooth over herky jerky, prop hanging any day. Anymore, everyday at the flying field is like re-living my youth!

Pic: Silk and dope (SPA legal) Jim Whitley Daddy Rabbit.
$125 dollar Zimpro short kit, $180 previously owned NIB OS 91 four stroke and somewhere around $150 worth of other stuff. I don't really think I need anymore for fun on a Sunday afternoon.

It would be one thing if I actively competed, but for my situation, old designs are affordable and still make me smile ear to ear!

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

Well, this isn't a pattern plane, but it's an old design! I love flying this plane. Pure relaxation. It's called "Coronet." This is a Doc Matthew's enlarged, r/c version of this 1940's free flight design from Model Aviation plans. Sure is good for settling the nerves after practicing pattern. THERE! I related this to pattern so it fits the thread.

Hope to have both the Dirty Birdy (all tricked out with retracts and piped OS .61. ZOOM!) and either the Kaos or the Taurus done by spring... Hope my Coronet is still together to calm my nerves!

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Hey bokuda,

Do me a favor: Do a - touch and go - as the sun sets on a hot summer night. You surly have the airplane for it.

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

Funny you should say that! I must have done a thousand t & g's with this plane! It's about 13 or 14 years old and is on it's second engine: an OS 30 FS. Wore out the .26.

On a calm evening I like doing t & g's in both directions making 180 degree turns right over the runway. On a good afternoon, it thermals and I've had flights of 45+ minutes and used about 2 oz of fuel.

Check our club newsletter on this site. I'm in the upper right hand photo flying this plane.

http://www.hampshirecountyrc.org/

That's all. This is the pattern section!

tipo750

Let's not get caught up in comparing planes that are too old to more recent classics... there's no comparison between a Taurus and an Arrow!

MrSteve09, I was actually thinking of the 2 meter Dirty Birdy, and hopefully revving-up the engine so I can get some decent vertical acceleration. I also need to figure a way to leave the pipe hanging out really nicely. I'll have to look into tricycle gear also.

I do believe that bigger is better, especially in the wind, but pattern design is essentially been fairly straightforward for decades... you simply eliminate cross-coupling and trim it to fly straight in all attitudes and power settings. It's not magic.

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

I have to partially disagree with this statement. The older pattern planes will in fact fly slow enough to keep in the box, but that's not the speed they fly best. I had no problems at all keeping my Tipo's, Avante or Kaos's in the box, but they were no where near smooth enough at those speeds to fly well. The newer planes simply have lower wing loadings which allows them to fly better at lower speeds than the designs of yesterday.

John

maac16324

My Feedback: (6)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dump on the new, newer and newest vogue in pattern planes, engines etc. Lets compare an Enigma with a DZ 140, Asano pipe and all the goodies ... a total investment of $3000. Put it on a line 140 yards out with a competent pilot and it will fly Masters or FAI just great. Lot of power, constant speed and will use the entire box without blowing out. Scores ... High depending on thumbs at $4 to $5 a flight for fuel.

OK now take a Kaos 60, put an OS or Saito 91 in it, good analogue servos and a top quality setup. Fly it on a line 40 to 50 yards out with a very competent pilot and it will fly Masters or FAI just great. Lots of power, constant speed and will use the entire box without blowing out. Scores ... you tell me what it would have scored at the last contest you attended. Oh yeah, total cost $500 and $.50 per flight.

It's great to say that judges are totally immune to the idea that great pilots fly the newest and best gear and therefore deserve a point or two higher here and there but I don't think that reflects reality.

I'm really not trying to kidnap this thread and turn it into a judging rant. My point is that if you fly pattern for fun and to improve your flying skills it isn't necessary to fly the newest big iron. If your budget is limited or if you have other spending priorities grab one of the older birds and go for it. Even if you end up in the bottom half of the scores in the next contest the scores don't necessarily reflect your flying skills and you will have 95% fun in the process.

Just my .02.

OldRookie

My Feedback: (13)

Talk about old pattern planes that are nothing like the new models, how about the VK Cherokee.
Didn't this plane win the AMA NATs back in the 60's?

Greg

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

...or you can have the best of both worlds. I have a set of plans for the Arrow sized at 175% of the original. I'd better get building!!
2meter pattern ships fly great, but a few years ago I built another Dirty Birdy (my 5th - more than 20 years since my last one). I had loads of fun flying it and I flew it a LOT - right up until the elevator servo took a vacation :-(
I think I'll build a Curare this winter!

-Will B.