jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Can you imagine what would happen if they got rid of all the "restrictive" rules in 'Formula Ford'? Let's see... uh, Formula 1? Isn't that more expensive?

burtona

My Feedback: (50)

Which does Formula Ford have, a Max weight rule or a Min weight rule?

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Minimum (400 Kgs). I know where you're going with this but please, oh please don't say it here! LOL

John Pavlick

burtona

My Feedback: (50)

Nope, Not going to say it here!

rix

I just always used the typical equipment that everyone else used back then, all good. My last Nats was in 2000 and I was weighed for the Masters finals, AND MADE WEIGHT!, but choked the last two rounds and did not make it in. I experienced some burn-out after that and had just purchased a house and so forth and decided to hang the planes in the garage for a while, but did not realize it would be 10 or more years before juices started running again. Actually interest started to surface about 3 years ago and I was looking at electrics but could not believe the initial expense to get back in and do it right, so I sent the old YS in for a re-build and ordered some Magnum Gazzz from Buzzz in Denver last summer. Most everyone one was flying electrics at the field and I was realizing the benefits, but I have two kids in college, a wife, two dogs, a cat and three kittens so hobby funds are not what they used to be. Then I discovered the Wind-110 and started doing extensive research and with a bunch of help from friends, I made the jump. I went to my first contest this year flying Advanced with the Wind, which is a fine flying airplane, but watched with keen interest some of the Masters guys and what they were flying and determined that the 110 was just not up to the task power wise or presentation wise to fly at that level so I went back to the lab (my computer) and started hearing rumors of a good 2meter becoming available at a nice price point. Once the Vanquish was in stock, I jumped on one.

Maybe you mis-understand me. I can make weight with what I have and I really like what I have. But after weighing my stuff (all good stuff) with the two different brands of batteries that I have, I started asking myself, why did I just need to purchase $600 worth as opposed to $300 worth? The $300 gets me there performance wise even for Masters. Then I started looking at 2013 when I plan to fly Masters again and with the additional costs to do that with literally no flight performance benefit and I kept asking myself the question, why? Its not a personal taste thing, or that I need a turn-key solution nor am I going to be nipping at anyone's ankles. The Vanquish was not available options back in the day, and now they are and I simply started looking at the big picture and why a rule requires me to either spend money and or become a lab rat trying to trim weight by scrapping out heavy wing fillets with a dental tool. I am fine with any rule as long as its purpose and objective are of benefit and not unreasonably burdensome. Would some here at least agree that it would be reasonable to raise it slightly for all AMA classes (Masters Included) and not eliminate it altogether? I have given several good reasons in various posts as to why that might be of benefit. Again, I can make weight currently, and I will make weight for Masters including local contests as I do honor the rulebook, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out why some cling to it like its the Holy-Grail.

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

Rules is rules, Rick.

I don't have the why, I just follow them because I love pattern flying. I love pattern airlpanes, and I love the way that they fly. They are built to conform to these rules, so I guess that's why I don't have a problem with it. I wish I did know that way when the discussion comes up again in six months, I can have an answer. All I can do is point out my arguments of why it should stay.

MTK

If you ever saw how lightly built an 78" EF Extra is built, you will realize that the piped 50cc gas engine on a pattern plane is NOT A PIPE DREAM. By Pattern standard, the EF Extra is a bit heavy out of the box. And mine, equipped with a DLE55, DA RTC header (stainless unit) and the ESComposites G55 pipe, weighed in at 12 1/2#. That's heavier than rules allow but not pachyderm heavy. There is weight to be saved on the header (the stailess unit weighs 5 1/2 ounces) and a bunch of savings on the model itself. Example, each wing panel weighed 20 ounces, the stB 12 ozs and the canopy weighed 10. Kept the stock 7/8" carbon wing tube and it was plenty strong enuff

Did nothing extra to reinforce the Extra. The prop was a Mezjlik 20x12 3 blader. Guess what....this prop is lighter than a 19x11 apc that the guys are running on their YS170's

I weighed all of the components of the powerplant including the soft mount and stand offs. Weight was on par with electric set-ups except I lightened my DLE by 4 1/2 ounces. So all up with stock stuff, this set-up is around 5 ounces heavier than an E-set-up.

Now, you tell me: if guys can get electric models RTF at 10 1/2 #, why can't we get a 50cc class engine in a pattern plane and still make weight? BTW-the lightest stock 55cc engine is the BME58 Xtreme. Beautiful engine but the carb is ill located for pattern. The least expensive to machine and butcher is the DLE. So it was worth the investment to me to find out if this was doable

bjr_93tz

I'm sorry if I believe that history will repeat itself for a THIRD time, that any two-stroke option will be quickly pushed aside in favour of a more exotic and expensive four-stroke option if/when it's put on the table.

OK maybe not at local club level but then again I certainly wouldn't pull my DZ170cdi and replace it with a cheaper OS 1.60, the same as I didn't pull the Hanno and replace it with a OS .91 when the capacity limit was lifted. The currrent crop of 50+cc gas engines offer excellent value and performance, of that I won't argue, but for pattern work they just aren't the whole package....

It'd be like putting a NASCAR engine into an F1 car, it'd work fine, be much cheaper to run and be a hoot to drive on a track day BUT ??

rix

Yes, I know, me to, and there it is, and is why I asked the question. Perhaps we will get an answer some day, or perhaps not.

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Even the DLE can be made lighter, there is still more weight to trim on the whole. The weight rule is a reality check.

I am not saying it is not feasible, it certainly requires some pioneering work and creative thinking. I used to run ZDZ40 FAI on a gas setup, the power is OK but the plane was heavy and flew no way better than e-powered planes.

MTK

Well, my DLE55 weighs about 42 1/2 ounces where stock weight is around 47 ounces. That's only a couple ounces heavier than the ZDZ40 F3A but puts out about 2X the thrust or more. I moved away from the ZDZ40 because of lack of power. My SAP30cc puts out more pure output than the ZDZ40.....

I've seen the very best electric set-ups flown by the very best in the country. I'm going on record as saying that this DLE set-up puts out more useful output with similar brakes as the best E. Noise is on par with YS170 4 strokes....Believe it or not!

Point is there is a heck of a lot that one can do with a little out of the box thinking. But enuff teaching unwilling pupils. On to better things

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Well, you own us a proof on RCU and I hope you are right!

cmoulder

You may know this already, but search back and find that there is virtually no decent (and even the occasional indecent) gasser in the 28-58cc range that Matt has not explored for Pattern use.

Matt's cards are always on the table... the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

petec

My Feedback: (58)

The rules are there to create a limiting construct for us to work within; remove a limitation and it will be exploited and costs will rise. Nature abhors a vacuum; give someone who can think creatively and has the money to spend the leeway and you will see innovation. However it will unfortunately be more than likely to cause the bar to raise and not lower. Power limitation was removed and we are still within the 2M box but the planes have certainly evolved and costs of said planes have gone up.

IF and I mean IF someone were to think this through and remove the weight limit then another limit would need to replace it. It could be a power output cap or perhaps a total aircraft volume or an airframe cost cap if this is really about controlling costs. Make a proposal that no airplane flown in an AMA Pattern class can cost more than $1000 for the airframe RTF less radio and power plant. With that you will have certainly controlled costs and the ARF manufacturers can crank out heavier planes and those with deep pockets can buy as many of them as they want and fly only the lightest while the the rest of us plebeians will fly a slightly heavier plane and the rules will now control costs.

As for Matt, he is one of the most impressive thinkers I have EVER met (and I know more than a few people with paperwork to prove they are geniuses).

I'll go back to lurking and working on work stuff again (If anyone has a position open for a CIO or an IT Director that would allow a good amount of flying time please don't hesitate to call me).

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Was not able to fly because of the cold front coming last weekend. So I did some weight shaving work on my Passport. Remember it is 114gram over the 5000g limit. Still within the allowance for my class but making it lighter is on my mind.

The work done.

1. Combined the battery wires for both pairs of elevator and rudder (split rudder) servos by cutting and soldering wires. Heavy-duty wires are used for +/-. The total saving is 0.6oz. A side-effect is that there are now only two bundled wires from the tail. Less messy.

2. Drilled 6 lightening holes on the prop washer for Neu motor. The drill jig is from DA (for DA85, 100 and 120). A saving of 0.2oz.

3. Redid the back mount plate for Neu. A saving of 0.6oz.

The total saving is 1.4oz = 39grams.

cmoulder

Very cool. That couldn't have cost too much. Maybe keep a running tab as you go along.

That must've been one heckuva mondo washer if you could use a DA 120 prop jig!

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

You will not believe how strong the washer is until you feel it. I could use a thin one but the motor is positioned such that the collet has to be out that much. A thick washer (like this one) is needed to cover a section of the collet that has no thread!

RC_Pattern_Flyer

My Feedback: (1)

I think that we accept 5000mah packs as the standard. example.

Rhino 4900 20c packs weigh 1250 grams for a 10S setup ........44.1oz

Skylipo 4400 20c packs weigh 1140 grams for 10S setup ........40.2 oz

I promise you wont see a difference in the lower classes through advanced and honestly havent tried it yet through the masters sequence.

I am currently flying 2 biplanes (Oxai shark and Insightrc Harmony) on 8S setups and am having great success. power is around 2600 watts. If i put this setup in my Pentathlon it would weigh 9 lbs 14 oz.


Chuck Hochhalter

MTK

Thank you Pete and Bob.....

Geez kinda reminds me of my daughter's husband who told me once that he had a genius IQ and the paperwork to prove it. That's why I've been raising my grandchildren since birth; A freaken deadbeat.....Hmmmm! on second thought maybe the son of a B with an itch is right!?? Nah

cmoulder

Don't believe it unless the "paperwork" is in the form of a large paycheck that appears on a regular basis.[&o]

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Sounds also a practical way to meet the weight rule and I could loose one cell from my 10-cell packs to save 4oz per pack.

Should adopt the e-power system earlier, rather than stuck with the ZDZ40, to have much more quality practice time!

cmoulder

Chuck, what brand 8s batteries, what Amp and C rating? I suspect they would have to be some top-shelf TP's to hold their voltage under load.

I have a pair of the Sky 4400 5S 40C but have not flown them yet. I don't know if hobbypartz is still selling the 20C version, but these 40C's also weigh 570 grams per pack.

MTK

For those with mild interest in the DLE55cc gassie experiment, here's the skinny:
1745 grams for engine, CDI, spark plug, prop mounting bolts and washer, header, pipe, soft mount and stand offs and mounting hardware. That's around 3# 14 ozs. A reasonable sum

What's the range of weight for E-Power? That's bats, motor, motor mount hardware, prop mounting hardware and ESC. Judging from some of the battery numbers I saw, we have got to be very close. The main variable will be plane weight but ever there, I don't plan anything more reinforced than typical.

Of course this beastie will be putting out the equivalent of 4500 watts give or take a little

RC_Pattern_Flyer

My Feedback: (1)

I am flying skylipo 20C 4400 mah.

I can use Gens Ace 30C 5300 mah and be right at the 11lb limit.

Chuck

cmoulder

That's encouraging to hear!

I still didn't get a chance to fly them today because the weather didn't cooperate... not terribly cold, but windy... maybe tomorrow before work.