DrMotor

This may be of interest:
1. There is good evidence, and it is reasonably accepted, that the Turnigy SK3 range of motors are made in the same chinese factory that manufactures HACKER outrunner motors. -This chinese factory is called SunRay Technology, and besides HACKER outrunners -it also makes Extreme Flight TORQUE motors, as well as many other motor brands ( "LIPOLICE" motors, RCM-PELIKAN "FOXY", GENS ACE, Shulman Aviation "FURY" motors, APACHE, OK HOBBY INFINITE -to name a few ...)
See: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11426913/tm.htm

2. In almost all cases, it is clearthat the Turnigy SK3 motors have identical specs to the matching HACKER,TORQUE, and other mentioned brand motors; This evidence shows that all these different motor brands (HACKER, TORQUE, LIPOLICE, Turnigy SK3, RCM-PELIKAN "FOXY", GENS ACE, Shulman Aviation "FURY" motors, APACHE, OK HOBBY INFINITE, HYPERION "Z", etc etc -there may be more... )are very similar and are all manufactured together in the SunRay Technology factory.
Of course, one big difference is that SK3 motors (or Gens Ace, or LiPolice, etc etc ...) cost only 25% of the directly equivalent HACKER motor -even though it seems likely that they will be essentially identical motors to the HACKER and TORQUE motors, which are made on the same assembly line.

3. Recently, a new F3A motor has appeared -the "Turnigy F3A SK3 Competition Series 28 Pole Outrunner" motor, which can be obtained from HobbyKing for $159 - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Outrunner.html
This SK3 F3A motor has specs: weight 590g, 240 Kv, diam 60mm, length 61mm; it has 28 poles, 6 wire turns, (number of stator arms not known -may be 12 or 24), requires 10S Li-Po, has 8mm shaft; it uses a 5030 stator (i.e. stator of: 50mm diam, 30mm length)

4. Now, of course we know this SK3 F3A motor is made in the same chinesefactory that manufactures HACKER motors;
-And it would seem surprising if this SK3 motor might come outvery different from a Hacker F3A motor, made in the same factory. -In addition, it would seem unlikely that this SK3 F3A motor mightbedifferent from the Hacker A60-7S V2 28-Pole motor -which itself appears largely similar to the Hacker Q60-7M F3A motor, and is also made in the same factory.

5. It is fascinating that the Hacker Q60-7M motor hasvery similar specs to the SK3 F3A: the Hacker Q60 also has 28 poles, but with 7 wire turns (number of stator arms is unknown -may be 12 or 24); The Hacker Q60 also uses a 5030 stator; the Hacker has similar weight, a slightly lower 210Kv (prob. due to extra wire turn), and same external diam, length and shaft diam as the SK3 motor.
We can see that the outer case of the SK3 motor is different from the Hacker, however these are just cosmetic differences; The inner working parts of the SK3 F3A motor, and those of the Hacker motors, are likely to be similar if not identical.

6. One significant difference: The shaft of the Hacker Q60 motor protrudes from the rotating face, and the motor is configured for back mounting; Whereas the SK3 F3A is configured for front mounting. -However, it should be an easy job on the SK3 F3A motor to turn the shaft round, if one wishes, to enable back mounting. And in this case, there would also be a prop driver on the rotating face of the SK3 motor -as there is for the Hacker Q60 motor.

7.The SK3 F3A motor also has similar specs to the Hacker A60-7S V2 28-Pole motor. The A60-7S has28 magnet poles (number of stator arms not known -may be 12 or 24), similar Kv, the same external same motor dimensions and same shaft as the SK3 F3A. The A60-7S usesa 5030 stator; the A60-7S has 7 turns, rather than 6 like the SK3; -however, there are 5-turn and 8-turn versions of this A60 28-Pole motor available ( -interestingly, not a 6-turn version, to match the turns on the SK3 F3A ... ).

8. In conclusion: It seems likely then, that the Turnigy SK3 F3A motor, and the Hacker Q60-7M motor, and also the Hacker A60-7S motor, are all made in the same chinese factory, side by side.
It also seems likely that these motors might use similar, if not identical, internal working parts. The SK3 F3A and the two Hacker motors have very similar specs, and this would seem unlikely to be pure co-incidence.
After all, these F3A motors are part of a particular family that have the unique specs of: 5030 stator, Kv 210 to 240, 28 magnet poles, (stator arms may be 12 or 24), 6 or 7 turns, 60mm external diam, weight ~580g, length 62 to 67mm -consistent with the fact they come from the same factory. No other F3A motor has these unique specs.

9. (Note however: Other F3A motors that DO have these particular specs are: Torque F3A "Silver Bullet", Shulman FURY F3A, Apache X60 F3A, LiPolice 5030 F3A, OK Hobby Infinite A5030-210 F3A, Mega Power TAURUS MPA5030 F3A -and ALL these motors are made in the same chinese SunRay Technology factoryas the Hacker and SK3 -they are part of the same family ... )

Finally, let us note that Hacker Q60-7M motor costs $540.
The Turnigy SK3 F3A motor costs $159 -just 29% of the cost of the Hacker.
Putting it another way: The Hacker costs ~3.5 times that of SK3 F3A motor -And for an essentially identical motor ...?.

Could it be, that the Turnigy SK3 F3A motor is essentially the same motor as the Hacker F3A motor, the main difference being that it costs only 29% of the Hacker clone ...?


Pictures show, from left: 2 pics of Turnigy SK3 F3A SK3 motor; Hacker A60-22S; Hacker A60-7S-V2; and Hacker Q60-7M F3A

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Even if they are the same motors, I am done intentionally supporting the Chinese ripoffs. I have been feeling so much better about my purchases going with the 'Name Brand' and receiving the support wherever necessary.

DrMotor

Dear Joe, Thanks very much for this comment. I am interested in your choice of words.
The reason for saying this, is that it should be realised that the HACKER and TORQUE motors are just one of the many brands manufactured in the SunRay Tech factory.
Indeed, the HACKER motors are just one of the "clones" produced by this factory -all the motors that they make are based on generic SunRay motors -they simply produce a purple colour version of their generic motors and label them "HACKER". There seems no difference between the HACKER motors and the other brands of motors made at this factory.

The HACKER motors are just clones of the generic SunRay motors, as are all the other motor brands made there.
It seems it is the HACKER motor which is the "Chinese rip off" of a generic SunRay motor.

Food for thought ....

MTK

Are you saying that Hacker outsourced a Hacker design to this particular Chinese company or that Hacker is buying this Chinese company's ready to go design and marketing it as their own? Either way, very interesting stuff but not surprising....

Overall I tend to agree that SOME Chinese stuff is crap. But some isn't....I use and recommend current DLE engines for example. Earlier DLE versions left a lot to be desired. Also just purchased Savox servos for testing in a Pattern app. And NO I don't agree that the Chinese are taking over the World. I'm old enough to remember similar stuff beingsaid about the Japanese after they overcame early developmental (read quality) issues....

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

don't assume that since two products roll off the assembly line from a Chinese contract manufacturer that the products are the same. There can be very big differences in the materials and processes. It's like a battery manufacturer that I use in China. Sure they make Energizer batteries and other name brand batteries on the same assembly line with their batteries, but the materials used and the tests performed are very different. Energizer could pick from many, many different contract manufacturers to build their batts but they go to the place that can do the job the best and meet their specs. There are also certain proprietary things that they can have done during the assembly process as well. If the battery manufacturer tries to migrate the proprietary techniques/materials into their in-house batteries then they lose Energizer's business. They know better. Some contract manufacturers don't care, but the good ones do. I'm sure Hacker was selective in choosing their Chinese production partner.

I guess the proof would be in getting both motors, test them, disassemble them, truly check out all the materials, and look for similarities and differences.

By the way, I'll look into SunRay. I'm looking for a motor manufacturer at the moment (for work, not this stuff)

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Who came to the market first? Where was the technology developed? Are they 100% the same components, material, and assembly process? Are the attitudes of the assemblers identical? Could it be that the Chinese brand motors are seconds that don't pass Hacker's quality control? Will the Chinese company overnight you a brand new motor if you have a defect?

I am not trying to tell anyone what to do or what to buy, I just like to have quality components in the airplanes that I care so much for. I personally feel better about buying a Hacker or an E-flite over a SunRay.

apereira

A few years ago, I bought a Turnigy F3A motor, almost an exact copy of the AXI F3A, it said it had a weight of that much and had Japanese bearings, well it weighed a lot more, even when I reworked the engine in my lathe was about 30grs heavier than the specs, and the bearings were not Japanese as it said different on the bearing itself, meaning that at the end, I fully agree with Shannah. it might come form the same factory, but it does not means it is a Hacker, I do own several Hackers and some Turnigys, and there is no way anyone could say they are close to each other, it is clearly visible in the winding for example, so how can it be done in the same machines?? and the materials are not even close.

It might be good motors, but those who can afford them will always buy the brand names as those names stand behind their product, and when you add the shipping cost from Hobbyking the difference in price is reduced, so the actual price is not real, and forget about sending a motor back for warranty, by the time you pay shipping costs it is pretty much close to the brand name. I buy a lot from Hobbyking, but there are things in F3A I keep with the brand names.

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

I doubt very seriously that Hacker produces their higher end motors in China. I firmly believe that they produce their smaller motors there to be competitive, but I'm willing to bet their more expensive/higher end motors DO, in fact, come from Germany. Their lower-end motors likely enjoy higher end components, extensive (read complete) design in-house and are simply saving money on some of the less critical items such as the can, prop adapters, and more importantly, labor.

Apples to oranges, fellas. Not even close.

DrMotor

A SIMPLE COMPARISON OF THE SPECS OF SOME F3A MOTORS:(all aremade by the SunRay Technology factory ...)
(listed in order of number of turns -descending)
All motors are 60mm diameter, all use 5030 stator

9T
Apache X60-9T-Acro-Competition, 570g, Kv215, 9T, 20 or 28 pole?, D 59 L 67

8T
Apache X60-8T-Acro-Competition, 570g, Kv230, 8T, 20 or 28 pole?, D 59 L 67
=Shulman Aviation FURY 60/67-230 "F3A", 590g, Kv 230, 28 pole, D 60 L 67

-Note: both Apache X60 and Fury F3A motors haveidentical external appearance as Torque F3A "Silver Bullet"

7T
Hacker 580g, Q60-7M F3A, Kv 210, 7T, 28pole, D60 L67
=Torque F3A "Silver Bullet", 580g, Kv 220, 7T, 28 pole, D 60 L 67
=Hacker 595g, A60-7S V2 28-Pole, Kv 215, 7T, 28pole, D60 L62
=SunRay 5030-210Kv 7T, 580g, 28pole, 24 stator arm, D 60 L 61
=LiPolice LPA-F3A-5030-210KV, 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole, 24 stator arm, D 60 L 61
=OK Hobby Infinite A5030-210 F3A, 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole, 24 stator arm, D 60 L 61
=Mega Power TAURUS MPA5030-210KV F3A, 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole, 24 stator arm, D 60 L 61

-Note: LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite and Mega Power F3A motors all haveidentical appearance; theyall have identical specs;
Specs for each motor statethey have 24 stator arms; they are all derived from the generic SunRay 5030-210Kv F3A motor, which has 24 stator arms.

6T
Turnigy SK3 F3A SK3 Competition Series 28 Pole Outrunner, 590g, Kv 240, 6T, 28pole, D60 L61
-Looks similar to: LiPolice, Infinite, Megapower F3A motors

Lipotech GTAR25 F3A, 590g, Kv 225, D 59, L 61 -number of turns not known



Pics show: LiPolice LPA-F3A-5030 motor has exactly the same front housing and shaft as theTurnigy SK3 F3A SK3motor -showing that they indeed are made in the same factory.

Silent-AV8R

DrMotor - Seems like you should snap up a couple of the low price motors and do some testing. Then let us know the results. The proof is always in the using. Specs are just ink on paper (or dots on a screen).

wagen017

Yep, walk the talk, please.

Summarizing specs won't get you there.

Nice analogy here in Europe is the use of tenders for purchase for government. They buy on specs, buying criteria is cost. They get crap, and then complain....

Volkert

wagen017

Who, DrMotor, is Allanlevi1? I don't like ghosts.....

DrMotor

Apereira, thanks for this comment. I think you must be mistaken, however.
Let me say: I have nothing to gain bymakingcomments which might appear positive about HobbyKing or Turnigy. My only motive is that I dislike the situation where somevendors (i.e. Hacker) sell a particular motor for 4 times the price, when the exact same motor made in the same factory is available under a different brand name (i.e LiPolice, OK Hobby) for 25% of this price. The situationdoes not seem right, it irritates ...
Here are some replies:

1. There has never been previously, a motor that has been labelled as a"TurnigyF3A" motor; -Before the recent appearance of the new "SK3 F3A" motor.
2. There has never been a Turnigy motor which has looked anything like theAXI 5330/F3A motor - http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?...=F3A&line=GOLD
3. There have been several types of "Turnigy" motors over the years. Most of these were manufactured by the XYHfactory - http://en.xingyaohua.com/html/default.html
These variousmotor rangeshave been called Turnigy "standard", the original Turnigy "SKAerodrive XP", Turnigy "XP", Turnigy "L" type, and also some others.
4. These previous Turnigy motor typeswere cheaper and lower quality that the newer SK3 motors. The older Turnigy typeswere generally fine for good sport flying, many people were happy with these motors. However,they were not generally motors one might consider for an F3A plane.

5. However, we are now in a different ball park with these newer SK3 motors. They are much higher quality and better performance than all the previous Turnigy motor types.
6. The SK3 motorsare all made in the SunRay Technology factory, which makes the Hacker and Torque motors on the same production line. They have the same quality and performance (and inmost cases identical specs) as Hacker and Torque motors.
7. I have purchased several of the SK3 motors-indoor-size, 30-size, 50-size and 60-size. They have in general identical accessories to Hacker motors (like e.g. Shulman FURY, Hyperion-Z). And when you take these SK3 motors apart, they have exactly the same stators and windings to the matching same-size Hacker motor. Even the box they come is identicalto the old-style Hacker motor packaging (before Hackercame in moulded plastic packaging).

Apereira, it would be wrong to make any assumption about these quite impressive SK3 motors, from a Turnigy motor that you purchased some years ago.
Times have changed ....

wagen017

I would think we live in a free world, if I want to spend my money on Hacker, and keep the majority of the money spent in Europe & get good service that is my choice, thank you very much. If you don't, fine. I don't get your point, what is your point? Anyway, good luck with it, tralalalala.

Volkert

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

Dr. Motor,

It seems as though my previous post has gone unnoticed. Have you visited this factory and can back up the claim that these motors are built there? Also, what came first, the chicken or the egg? I know Hacker makes some motors in China, but F3A motors are not among those. Also, the last time I checked, the world operates based on a free-market system. People can charge what they want for their products and services. If people don't like their pricing structure, they have the option to go elsewhere. I would rather have one nice, expensive, high-quality thing than four cheap ones.

Hacker and Plettenberg (funny how Plettenberg isn't lumped in here since a few of the motors listed are direct copies of their 30-10) aren't screwing people over; they are innovative companies that spend quite a bit of money to make technology better. The clone companies don't do this, they become familiar with a product and they make something similar and cheaper, but it's never truly equivalent. They don't have nearly the same development costs to recuperate.

I'm sorry, but arguments like this REALLY strike a chord with me because I deal with it every day in my professional career. People spend more money buying **** products, their replacements, and their replacement's replacements, and still wonder why they have so many problems. Then they turn to the people that design, develop, and stand behind their stuff for help or to yell at us for being too expensive. Development and service (especially) cost a lot of money, and it is reflected in the price, but more importantly, in the performance of the product.

Lt me be the first to say that this is not a blanket statement for all Asian vendors. It's not. There are many good, honorable vendors out there, but for every good one, there are five unscrupulous ones. I'm not saying that Sun Ray's factory is bad, quite the opposite. I don't know of the other motors that they produce other than the Torque and a few, smaller Hackers. But the reason why Hacker goes to Asia for some motors is to give up on something to make themselves more competitive. Generally, the prices on these motors will be commensurate with equivalent motors in the marketplace, save for the typical cheap/junk outlier.

You get what you pay for.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Ryan is right

DrMotor

Ryan, thanks for this comment.
I had not considered Plettenberg F3A motors. I have just looked at some info on these Plettenberg motors.
You are absolutely correct, the Apache X60 Acro-Competition motors (8 and 9 turn) are a directcopy of the PlettenbergXtra 30-10 (V1 and V2). They have exactly the same external appearance, and they also have 20 magnet poles, like the Plettenberg. They also have the same external dimensions, Diam 60mm Length 67mm.
TheTorque F3A "Silver Bullet" also has an identical external appearance and size to the Plettenberg Xtra 30-10, however this has 28 magnet poles and 7 turns.
In addition, the Shulman FURY 60/67-230 "F3A" also has an identical appearance and size, however this also has 28 poles,and would appear to be 8 turn -at least from the quoted Kv for this motor.

It also seems that the Hacker Q60-7M F3A is largely derived and copied directly from the Plettenberg Xtra 30-10. The Hacker has a very similar front appearance, and arrangement, with the short shaft that screws into the front-end housing assembly. It also has a very similar arrangment at the back, witha large circular rotating ring that attaches to the backplate. However the Hacker has 28 poles, and is a7 turn motor -so there a small difference here from the Plettenberg (as there is with the Torque F3A "Silver Bullet", which also has 28 poles, 7 turn).

By the way, there is no doubt whatsoeverthat the: Apache X60 Acro-Competition , Torque F3A "Silver Bullet" and Shulman FURY 60/67-230 "F3A" are all made at the SunRay Technology factory in China.
This factory will also make all the parts for the Hacker Q60-7M F3A and very probably this motor is also assembled there.

It is also well known, and very widely accepted, that ALL Hacker outrunner motors are made in this Chinese factory -Indeed, it states that all outrunnersare made in China,on the packaging which comes with each Hacker motor. This appliesto ALLHackeroutrunners, from small indoor 15g motorsright upto the large A-60 -size900g outrunner motors.
The Q80 motors may perhaps be assembled and checked in Germany, but all the components of this motor are of course likely to be made in China.

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

Regardless of where the motors are built, they must be designed somewhere. I doubt Reiner Hacker is licensing his designs to the companies making clones. You say the Hacker is just another clone, yet without the original, there can be no clones. So the Hacker, which is the source of all the reverse engineering going into the Turnigy, is NOT a clone. In actuality, IF these companies are producing clones of Hacker and Plettenberg motors, and branding them under their own name, then they are doing nothing more than stealing intellectual property.

I won't support thieves.

Jason Arnold

That's basically what it gets down to. Pretty much any western product manufactured in China will be copied. By purchasing the copied product you are supporting the practice.

Cheers,
Jason.

PatternFlyer

My Feedback: (182)

since you purchased some of those motors. At least if you provide pictures of those motors. Some of us may have equivalent hacker motors to take a look at.

So, would you please post pictures of the motors ? identical box, identical accesories and exactly same stators & winding.
If you can, please include caliper measurements and digital scale weight display.

Also, since you purchased the motors, have you ran those side by side with equivalent hacker?

Only way to find out if something is identical to Hacker or other brands, is to run them on exact same equipments including prop, battery & esc.

If they are same, they should show at least very close measurements.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

This thread is going nowhere. If someone wants to believe the motors are all the same, and they can get a 'Hacker' motor for 1/4 the price, let them. I think we've made an honest effort to explain why we believe the motors are not identical, largely lacking in quality and product support.

DrMotor

Dear Joe, Thanks for comment.
Please note: This thread is not about "belief" or assumption. It is about OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE.

Please see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11426913/tm.htm
-You will see on this thread, thatALL Hacker outrunner motors have identical specs to the generic SunRay Technology motors
-And they also have identical specs to: E-F Torque, Pelikan Foxy, LiPolice, Z-series Hyperion, OK Hobby Infinite, Turnigy SK3, Apache, Nova-Line, Lipotech, Gens Ace, MegaPower Taurus, Shulman Aviation Fury, Viper R/C ...

In other words, Hacker outrunner motors are exactly the same motors, made in the very same factory, as:E-F Torque, Pelikan Foxy, LiPolice, Z-series Hyperion, OK Hobby Infinite, Turnigy SK3, Apache, Nova-Line, Lipotech, Gens Ace, MegaPower Taurus, Shulman Aviation Fury, Viper R/C ...

Thatis objective evidence. Whatobjective and convincing evidence do youhave, Joe, to refute this -other than a general"belief"or "feeling" that Hacker might somehow be in some way different ?

DrMotor

Hello Doug, you may be interested in these comments made by Christian Lucas, in Germany:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=206
-He gives the opinion that Hacker does not really have their own motor designs, they just copy from others. He calls Hacker a "German Copyshop".
Hacker outrunner motors are just a copy of Plettenberg motors. Evidently this is what Uwe Plettenberg himself says.
And it is very clear, for instance, that the Hacker Q60-7M F3A is just a copy of the Plettenberg Xtra 30 motor, with the Q60 having a purple colour on the outside, and a slightly different can with a removable rear end housing.

Christianalso states that all Hacker inrunner motors arejust a copy ofLehner motors.

I have also heard several other people give similar views about Hacker motors. So it is very debatable indeed, whether Hacker has any of their own designs to licence. From the start, Hacker motors would appear to be just clones of the original Plettenberg and Lehner motors. Indeed, it seems thatthe original "reverse engineering" camefrom Plettenberg and Lehner, and not Hacker...

As far as the whole range of current Hacker outrunner motors which are all made in China, at the SunRay Technology factory: They appear to be just another version of the generic SunRay motors, produced by SunRay with a can that has an externalpurple colour, and with a Hacker label on the outside.
The specs and performance of all Hacker outrunner motors are identicalto the generic SunRay Tech motors, and to all the other motor brands made by this factory.There is no difference at all, in the quality and performance betweena Hacker outrunner motor and e.g. a Shulman FURYmotor, a Shweighofer LIPOLICE motor, or aGENS ACE motor ...
After all, it is worth noting that that every one of the Shulman FURY motors have the exact same naming code for each motor that Hacker uses, and they even have the exact same Kv for each motor that is also quoted by Hacker for the same-size motor.

The chances of this being pure chance, are infinitesimallysmall ...

cmoulder

Easy enough to find out if these are 'clones' (exact "genetic" make-up) or knock-offs (same look, different materials) by stripping down a Hacker and one of the equivalents and checking the materials.

I remember looking at photos of the OS motors when they first came out and thinking "gee, that looks like a blue Hacker!"

DrMotor

It is worth again quoting Christian Lucas: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=206

" ... look inside a motor to compare. The outside will sweet talk your eyes, but has nothing to do with performance ..."