tuny

Lets see pictures of that evidence!

DrMotor

Have tried for several days to upload images to RCUniverse -but the facility is not working at present.

Also see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11426913/tm.htm

DrMotor

Picture upload now working; Here they are -best pics I can get at present, with an 8Meg camera.

Pics show 3 motors:Hacker, Gens Ace and Turnigy SK3 ( -all made by the SunRay Technology factory ).
Youcan see that they have identical stators, and windings. This is also clear from the view of the end of the stators.
They also have identical magnets, and number of magnets.
In addition, the connecting leads, the plugs and way the leads and heat shrink cover are arranged, is identical for each motor.

quod erat demonstrandum

DrMotor

Also: I just realised, in addition:
1. The Hacker motor has an IDENTICAL front housing to the Turnigy SK3 motor.
The only difference is that the Hacker housing is black, whilst the SK3 housing is silver.

2. The Hacker and SK3 motors (and also the Gens Ace motor) also have an identical can -in both length and metal thickness.
Again,the only difference is that the Hacker can is purple,whlst the SK3 canis silver (and the Gens Ace is green ...)

DrMotor

And: In the USA, the Hacker motor costs 3.3 times as much as the identicalSK3 motor.

In the UK, it is even worse: The Hacker motor costs 4.3 times as much as the identical SK3 motor ...

siberianhusky

Can you tell me EXACTLY HOW you KNOW the magnets and everything are the same? Where is the testing.
Must be nice to be able to identify the grade of magnet or temp rating of the insulation on the magnet wire simply by looking at it.
You should contract yourself out IF you really have those skills.
Still no proof here. Easy to leave the programming and load the machinery full of sub par parts.
have you pulled any bearings and checked the numbers? Nope and that would be easy.....
How about end play in the assembled motors, no mention there, how about shaft run out? no info there.
None of this proves anything other than the motors are made in the same place.
Big stinking deal! Doesn't mean they are the same motors. Look the same maybe, same inside, some maybe (the clones), all of then most positively NOT.
Nobody has the skills to identify magnet grade and insulation etc by simply looking at it. Keep fooling yourself!

DrMotor

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink

vbortone

My Feedback: (2)

Can you see small balacing marks on the rotor? I don't know in small motors but F3A motors you can see balancing marks in the rotor.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Notice all of the small differences in the specs of the motors being compared.  Albeit slight, the differences are noticeable.  Notice especially, the weight.  10g here and there aren't much, granted, but 1/3 oz is enough to lend itself to the assumption that the materials are not the same in the motors.  If they were identical, weights would be the same, precisely +/- an averaged error factor.

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

Frankly I don't care of Hacker has their lower-cost motors made by SunRay. I DO care however if SunRay is making the Turnigy motors by simply stealing Hacker's design, and running a 3rd shift in their production facility using lower grade components.

Here's my real problem. I have tried a couple Turnigy motors, and all have worked, sort of. One threw a magnet within 2 hours of use, while the other had so much vibration that it was unusable. After inspection, I discovered horrible run out in the shaft. I've also owned a couple of the lower-cost Hacker motors of a similar size. I've never had a problem with them. Am I just lucky? Maybe. But it's also entirely possible that in order to cut costs, and allow the SunRay people to sell their cloned motors cheaper, that they use lower-grade, less expensive components inferior components.

Then there is the service I can get from the respective companies. If something fails on my Hacker, I can get service from Sean at Aero Model. If my Turnigy breaks, I'm seriously out of luck.

siberianhusky

LOL the definition if an idiot is doing the exact same thing over and over expecting a different result!

You have proven absolutely nothing here other than you can cut and past.
You have answered nobodies valid questions.
You seem to be unable to grab the obvious, yes they may look alike and be made in the same place but they are not the same in terms of components and quality control.
That is what you are paying more for.
I'm mainly a boat racer, if these clone motors were as good why are no records being set with them? Not even Leopards which are considered a mid grade motor.
Why is it all Hacker, Neu, Lehner?
Are you so full of yourself that you can't conceive that people have tried these clone motors and found them lacking?
There are numerous first hand accounts describing the differences yet you just keep on ignoring the proof in this bizarre quest to prove sub par motors are the same as quality ones?
Show me the actual proof from real disassembly, data logging info from a test stand, and records in books.
You can't even answer my question as to HOW you know the magnets and wire are of the same grade.
Take a look online at the number of grades of NEO magnets there are, look at the temperature ratings, look at how much more it costs for magnets that can tolerate more heat.
Look up the various grades of insulation available for magnet wire, the cheaper grades break down at lower temperatures thus shorting out the motor.
Look up some of the shops selling motor winding supplies, you can buy all these magnets from them in the same sizes, cost varies from a few cents to a few dollars.
None of these changes would effect the programming of the machines assembling the motor but will certainly effect the end quality.
Cheap chinese bearing VS bearings from NGK or Bocca.
You have addressed non of this, you are just blissfully ignoring facts.

DrMotor

I have also taken a Turnigy SK3 6354 motor apart -this is a 485g motor, so it is getting larger towards F3A size.
The answer is YES: There are several blue plastic spots inbetween magnets, and these are to dynamically balance the rotating can.
So the Turnigy SK3 motors ARE dynamically balanced.

I have also been able to confirm that the SK3 motors have CURVED MAGNETS -one of the features that Hacker have always noted and coveted about their motors. Many websites state for Hacker motors that: "These motors .... feature Oversize bearings, Curved Neo-magnets and High efficiency stator design".

Shulman Aviation also make an identical statement on their website: "FURY motors feature Quality NSK {JAPAN} Ball Bearings, Curved neo-magnets, and high efficiency stator design".Of course, Shulman FURY motors are also manufactured by SunRay Tech, so it is not surprising they say identical things as for Hacker motors...

The SK3 6354 motor has NMB bearings (NMB = Nippon Miniature Bearing) -whichseem to be high quality Japanese bearings like NSK

DrMotor

I would say that some of thequestions have been answered.There is certainly suggestiveevidence that Hacker motors are essentially identical to Gens Ace, TurnigySK3 and others etc. And now we have the photos, showing them to be direct "clones" of each other. Andof course we do know that all these motors are made togetherat the SunRay Tech factory.

Because just like with F3A pilots, there is a bit of a "designer label culture" and it alwayslooks better to have aHacker, Plettenberg, Neu, Lehner motor, than some other types. After all, Torque and Hyperion-Z motors are also identical to Hacker motors, and are made in the same factory side-by-side with Hacker; Itseems to me that neither Torque nor Hyperion-Z motors seem to be used much in boat racing or in F3A,orincompetition flyinggenerally...? Why not ... ? -Do they not have the same "designer label" status ...?

Iam notona "bizarre quest to prove sub par motors are the same as quality ones"
I am only interested in the outrunner motors produced by SunRay Tech, the factory that makes Hacker, Torque, Hyperion-Z, Shulman FURYmotors, etc etc. -I have no similar interest inbrushless motors produced by the XYH factory, or the EMax factory, or the Suppo factory-or any others.
I simply noticed that a number of different brands of motor had completely identical specs to Hacker and Torque etc, -and it has now been proven that all these various motor brands are made at the same factory as Hacker and Torque, on the same assembly lineat the SunRay Tech factory.
And now,of course,we have very strong photographicevidence that internally,Hacker motors appearto be identical withGens Ace and Turnigy SK3 motors. It looks very strongly like they are "clones" of each other ...

It is only common sense, therefore, to suggest that Hacker motors will beidentical internally with Torque, Hyperion-Z,Gens Ace,Turnigy SK3,Shulman Aviation FURY,LiPolice motors, etc etc.All these motors will also be expected to be identical in build quality and performance, since they appear to bemade with the same components and made at the same factory.
-That is the most simple and obvious explanation that fits all the factswe have so far.


Howdo youknow that the magnets and wireetc are NOT of the same grade ?
Have you objective evidence that Hacker motors might use a different grade of magnet or wire ? Certainly from looking very closely at the inside of Hacker, Gens Ace and Turnigy SK3motors, they appear to be completely identical (see the photos) -they appear to use the same magnets (all curved), they use the same wire, they use the same stators,the same bearings, they use the same rotating cans, and in some cases they even use identical end housings ...

-Siberianhusky -I wonder, might this question come froma "gut feeling", a"blind belief" -in thehopethat Hacker motors might somehow usedifferent magnets and wire from other motor brands made at the very same factory ? -Wemust say, that based on current evidence,this appears unlikely ...


What facts am I ignoring ...? It seems that I have presented a large amount of objective evidence;
Especially on this thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11426913/tm.htm

Siberianhusky: Can you please put forwardsome of your own objective evidence,to support what youappear to besaying...?

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

This is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Why don't I just shut this down for the time being until you guys cool down a bit.

CGr.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Ok, folks. I've revived this thread. If I get even the faintest hint that it is going negative, you can bet your bippie that I will not shut it down, but will delete it.

So, take heed and keep it civil.

CGRetired
Moderator.

DrMotor

BRUSHLESS MOTOR BEARINGS: After discovering that Turnigy SK3 motors use NMB bearings, I did a quick search to find other motors using these (-NMBare evidently high quality Japanese bearings like NSK).The following motors havealso been reported to use NMB bearings:
Hacker
Hyperion-Z
OK Hobby Infinite
Shulman FURY
Thrust motors -by Precision Aerobatics

Also: Scorpion, Hyperion-ZS motors use NMB (-the Hyperion "ZS" are of course made by Scorpion)
Also: Leopard motors are reported to use NMBbearings

More evidence for similarity between: Hacker, Hyperion-Z, OK Hobby Infinite, Shulman FURY, Turnigy SK3 ... ?

spog1

Dude, how many of these threads are you going to start on different RC forums before you back up your words with some real world comparison test data. What you're posting just doesn't cut it. Your lack of test data, and the continuous spewing of specs and pics makes your motives highly suspect.

wagen017

Oehoe, mrMotor, maybe an answer to this question??

ramboman

I have a pair of Turnigy SK3 F3A to be used on a 100" Mosquito. I bought them for the 28 pole. I ran some tests under 10s2p a123 with 18*12 tri-blade prop, I know it's underpowered, but it's OK.
Unfortunately the specs are not complete so I can't run e-calc or any other simulator.
Can anyone help ?

sleeping

Dr Motor,

Why don't you shut us all up and put your motors on a dyno. Same packs, same ESC (might adjust the timing a bit but that's okay). Take temperatures' etc. and that's it. Do you even realise the how many grades of NSB & NSK bearings there are? Quality of raw materials?

Just run the tests already!!

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Dr Motor is a shill for hobby king has been banned from other rc forums.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Dr Motor is a shill for hobby king has been banned from other rc forums. Look up Allan Levi on google,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1377748

Hadhis PM privileges revoked for abuse here on RCU
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/brus...ce-test-3.html