OhD

Recently a friend mentioned they had 140 Jets at a rally in Buttonwillow a few weeks ago. Earlier this year I went to a Helicopter event at Sepuveda Basin and there must have been 300 helicopters there. The common denominator was they were not competitions in the sense someone was keeping score. You can be sure though, that each pilot was trying very hard to demonstrate his skills so in a sense it is a competition but with no real pressure. I believe it might be a way to get people out to experience pattern, and I'm betting that a certain percentage would find out It is fun to fly in front of a crowd. There are quite a few folks in our local clubs that fly pattern capable airplanes that I'm pretty sure would come out to this kind of event.

What do you guys think? Is it worth pursuing? Has it been tried before and what were the results?

Jim O

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Jim, IMAC in my area used to have one day workshops. This is when we would invite guys out who may be on the fence about trying IMAC and they would be paired up with an experienced IMAC competitor. We would go over things like judging criteria, the logistics of an IMAC contest, airplane trimming and such. At the end we would fly a single round of basic without judges and then the pilot and his mentor would discuss the flight. Some guys would even show up to the next actual contest.That being said, I think that IMAC and pattern both have allowed the sport to advance to the point of driving away new competitors. Both have far more difficult sequences then 10 years ago. Those more complex sequences need more sophisticated airplanes. Obviously the new breed of airplanes are quite expensive. The average cost of an up to date pattern airplane with support equipment? I'm thinking around 7K? Yes there is the argument that you can compete with less then the current top of the line airplane and I suppose in the lower classes this is somewhat true. Classic pattern is gaining popularity I think because it is less costly and sequences are easier. IMO to be competitive in advanced and above requires a competitive airplane, knowledge on how to properly trim the airplane and a fair amount of time available for practice. Not many guys have the practice time.

jim woodward

I think this is about discipline.... Last weekend I went to Tampa for a Heli fun-fly, with Precision Competition. There was about 10 Precision flyers, and maybe 20 3D/funfly flyers. There were some sponsored 3D guys, with one young adult being a SAB/Goblin featured pilot - and was clearly the most aggressive 3d flyer there. The father attempted to ask the young man to fly in the "Advanced" heli class - which offers zero crash potential compared to 3D flight. The young man got all fidgety, changed body language, - just wasn't having it. Heard him saying to father, "... what if I forget or can't do it?" Backed out of even attempting 1 round. (Advance is the step above entry level).

This is not an instance of equipment, sponsorships, or complexity - as there was a truck load of the finest SAB electric helps in their pit, this was about being judged/exposed/pressure, etc. So there is a personality component to competition, and discipline, study, self-evaluation, anti-instant-gratification, all play apart. Basically, people who want to compete identify themselves, more than get "convinced" to do so.
Jim W.

mmattockx

I think that is an excellent point and one to keep in mind. No matter what is done with pattern, IMAC, motocross, tennis or whatever, competing is only going to appeal to a limited audience. Things can be done to make the events more welcoming and to make it easier for those who are interested to get their foot in the door, but that is still not going to attract someone who isn't interested in the idea of competition in the first place.


Mark

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I agree with both of you. It takes a certain type to want to compete in the first place and cost/complexity does not matter to those types. Pattern will always have those guys but all R/C venues need the lesser dedicated participants too. You know the guys who show up to a contest occasionally. Those with families or career that prevent them from being able to get in consistent practice time. Guys with limited means but the desire to compete. In all aspects of R/C competition I have been a part of, it's these guys that seem to have been forgotten.

RBACONS

My Feedback: (3)

My non-participation is due to a lack of contests (at least a perceived lack) within a reasonable drive (2-3hrs). It doesn't make sense to me to put in the time and expense needed to compete for 1 or 2 contests a year. I took up competing in RC Scale a few years ago because of a lack of local pattern contests in New England. With scale, at least I could attend 3 or 4 judged contests a year along with a couple of non-judged scale meets. (I don't suspect pattern folks will ever have fly-ins to ogle each others planes and just fly for fun.) I still love pattern planes, both the the way they look and the way they fly, and I practice the sportsman schedule at my local field, but without local contests it will always remain just a side interest.

I'm now down in district 3 and things don't look any better. Anywhere outside side of Florida is a long haul from southeast Florida. I've only seen 1 or 2 contests listed within the state and one of those was the district championships. Not enough activity to warrant the investment.

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

A couple of thoughts from a relative newcomer to RC.

I initially wanted to play with Warbirds but a friend got me interested in IMAC. Spent a chunk of money there finally stopping with a 2.6M Comp-Arf. The IMAC contests I went to were less than welcoming, while some pilots offered suggestions and support for the new guy, most were cool if not hostile. Spectators? Virtually none for the sequences but some show up for the Freestyle.

Pattern? Now that's a place where I've always been made to feel welcome and advice offered anytime I asked for it. Spectators? We cannot even get the other guys at the field to watch let alone the general public. If any of you are familiar with Dressage and horses, it's much the same, If you know what to look for it's something to see. If you don't, it's like watching concrete set.

Jets? Man that's a rush that is hard to explain. Great group of folks that are always friendly and willing to help if at all possible. Spectators? Well it's hard to believe that there are many other events that can be more interesting. There were 138 registered pilots at BITW last I heard from the CD. I believe each had at least one model and some had several models, biggest collection of jets I've ever seen in one place.... lol

3D? Well the spectators like it but most of the pilots are just banging sticks 'cause if you present them with a sequence, most cannot fly it and they all complain it's "Really Hard" to fly precision. Heli guys are the same way.

So, how do you gather all those different disciplines together and see who might be willing to try Pattern? I don't believe you'll get any interest from the general public. The like to look at the planes in the pits, but when they fly they are so far away and so high it's hard for them to see the planes let alone appreciate the precision (or lack thereof) involved. At our club, a certain guy moved into the area and got folks interested in flying Pattern, but that was all guys who already flew RC. Of that group there have been about a half dozen guys, including me, who've started flying Pattern and hitting some meets. Other than offer to help others, I don't know how you might identify a possible recruit pool other than other flyers?

Oh, at BITW they gave out 31 really nice looking trophies for a variety of things, my buddy got "Best Sport Jet" and don't think he wasn't as cranked up about that as any Pattern meet he's won and he's won a number of those....

shomenda

My Feedback: (2)

Pattern primers used to entice new people to give pattern a try. It was more of a fun fly atmosphere. Size and weight restrictions were waived. You could fly a trainer, a 35% IMAC airplane or a warbird if you wanted. You were judged but in a more relaxed manner. If you were in Sportsman Class, you could try the Intermediate Class, then go right back to Sportsman. It was a nice way to get together and meet new people at the same time.

Steve

jim woodward

Hang in there… I expect that the south Florida region will pick up steam again… keep you plane.
Jim

Anthony-RCU

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Jim,

Neat idea. I may try to incorporate this with the judging seminar the HVRC club will have in the spring or maybe just a separate event. Maybe we will just do Aerobatics Saturdays to practice and coach guys in the weeks leading up to our contest. Anything can't hurt.

As many have pointed out we have trained ourselves away from competition and it has become unfashionable. The two largest RC events are IRCHA and Joe Noll both large funflys. Take a look at the Model Aviation Nats coverage. A few random pictures a couple of "human interest stories" and "check our website for more". Many people just don't like the pressure of competition, "Too much like work."

Also, there is always a big RC trend event that becomes very popular. Look at giant scale, IMAC, foamies, 3D plane and heli now jets and FPV. Some time passes and they all look around and wonder were did everyone go? I don't think we can ever get back to the "Good Old Days" when pattern was the big thing but we can do better. Mostly by being around and approachable. Many pilots go to the field early or late when it is less crowded and focus on lots of flights. Try to go some meetings and bring your contest plane for a show and tell. Fly at the club picnic and be visible. I think the key is to get people to understand they are competing against themselves and love the satisfaction of rising to the challenge not just look for the trophy.

As the NSRCA Competitions Director my job is to get people to know that pattern is the best kept secret in RC. Would love to hear any ideas or success people have had in creating interest.

dbacque

My Feedback: (3)

Mark could have been speaking for me there in his last sentence. Actually, I think he was.

I fly mostly pattern planes, both classic and modern. I've been told I could be competitive and people have begged me to enter. But I choose not to because I don't like competition. It's not cost that keeps me out, I have a couple of modern, competitive aircraft. I just don't enjoy competition.

I've advanced in several hobbies through the years where people pushed me into competition. Every time I stepped up to it, I found that I didn't like the environment and my hobby became a high pressure event. Worst of all was people try to rattle other competitors so they will screw up. That is the exact opposite of the enjoyable experience I seek. I have dropped out of several hobbies because of competition making them significantly less enjoyable.

I will not let this happen to my flying. I love flying. I love flying with precision. But I will never allow my enjoyment of a day of flying be decided by others.

I am the judge of my flying. I decide if I've had a good time or not. I don't need someone else to decide my worth. I'm not saying that competition isn't right for some people. But it's not right for me.

Now, if there was a pattern"ish" sort of fly-in. A bring your stuff out and let's fly pretty maneuvers, I'd be first in line. I love flying pattern and watching pattern. But as soon as there is a judge or somebody starts trying to rank the fliers (or rankle them!), I'll find someplace else to fly so I can have a fun afternoon.

Dave

Smooth Pilot

The Georgetown Area Modelers Asociation (I think I have that correct) hosts a clinic for Sportsman and Intermediate pilots in District 6 every year. They ask certain people in the district to make presentations on Saturday and then they hold several rounds of competition on Sunday. I attended this year and the final result after competing all year (I only missed one contest) was that I was named District 6 Champion. I know, a shamless plug for myself, but the point is I met quite a few pilots who were encouraging and made a ton of new friends in all the classes including FAI. If you do not try, you will not know what you have missed. I am so hooked on pattern now that I tend to go through withdrawal if I do not get to fly. The fellowship at the contests are incredible and every time I would go to someone with a question or a problem, they would always take the time to answer or help. Now I will take the time to help or answer questions when someone walks up to me for guidance, help, or just information. It is very enpowering.

Sheldon

KLXMASTER14

For the last four years, I have hosted an event on the west coast called the "Classic Pattern Get-Together". It is simply a low pressure event where pilots can bring out their classic pattern airplanes (or whatever they have), hang out, fly if they want, and just enjoy the day. in the last couple of years, we have had a 2 round "non-contest" in the afternoon (totally not required) that has proven to be the gateway for several pilots to try out a real contest. Non -competitive events are a real thing for getting pilots from behind the keyboard to the flightline and really fly.
One maneuver per pass pattern is a much better entry lane into precision aerobatics than AMA Sportsman. Just start explaining the "box", sequences, etc and notice the glassy-eyed look. One more potential participant lost to FPV. Classic Pre-Novice or Novice can be flown with a Park zone T-28. No expensive commitment required.

Robert

esulit

Here in the Philippines, we have one pattern contest every year. This year, 8 people competed in sportsman, 3 in advanced and 8 competed in the P-class. The numbers are dwindling. In our case, I could see that the issues plaguing the sport are 1) Lack of flying fields 2) Lack of people to train newbies 3) Cost of pattern planes. I think of all the issues, the biggest one is the lack of people to train us in pattern flying and airplane setup. In my case, I had to find a club that taught or flew pattern regularly. Its more than 1 hour away from where I lived. So 13 out the the 19 competitors came from our club. We should just have held the pattern competition there.

I read this thread with much eagerness as I would like to know how else we can make this great sport more popular.

Regards,
Eric

bruceal

I think a big selling point on Pattern is that a person can learn the correct way to perform maneuvers. Even if competition isn't a priority, there is so much that can be learned. Anthony is in my club and has given me some tips on maneuvers that I really thought I was doing correctly but wasn't. Even just learning simple turn around procedures can help people who fly in a limited airspace. I think that he hits the nail on the head about coaching prior to an event. As people learn they are more likely to get involved, rather than go to an event and fly cold. As people get more comfortable they are more likely to participate.

jetmech43

My Feedback: (9)

Well for me the competition is what I do like, im more in competition with my self rather with other flyers, I know where I stand when I compete, by watching the other guys fly is how I learn and strive to be better.

lawrence b

Hi Jim, From what I have seen the problem with competition is not just found in your pattern flying. I see this happening in all the different disciplines of our hobby, helis, scale, and anything else that we all fly. I am a scale guy myself, I sometimes go to Warbirds Over Delaware just for a relaxing weekend. This year, as usual, they had a huge turn out and yet at the Scale Masters Championships that were held in Rosewood IN this year the CD would not even entertain the idea of having a designers class due to lack of entrees. I think there were only 38 pilots in all classes that were at Rosewood, and this was the Championships for all the qualifiers held around the country and Canada! I would love to build a classic patern plane and get flying the "old school" pattern style competition but their events are few and far between, as it is the closest scale contest that I drive to is 600 miles! Modelers these days are just not into competition, I don't know if it's because they fear they might not win or what but I don't think you will have much success with you idea which is to bad.

JohnFH

My Feedback: (6)

I am interested in both Pattern and IMAC, unfortunately New England seems to be a black hole for both.

And potential equipment costs to participate are also a factor. I was talking to an IMAC person recently and the comment was made "You should really have a 50cc or bigger if you want to be competitive". I was kind of hoping to use something I already had. Just an FYI from a new person looking in.

jetmech43

My Feedback: (9)

When I moved to Florida I was fortunate enough to be in what I call a hot bed for pattern activity especially in the central part where I am, been lucky to attend about 5 contest so far this year in Alabama, Georgia and here In Fl. It helps im sure for one to do pattern if it was active in you're club, those primers are a good idea it will spark the interest.

n233w

I love this question that OP asked!

1) Pattern is flown SO FAR AWAY that it does not create visual interest and one is not "on stage" as a pilot - so you can't compare it to the visceral thrill of jets or in-your-face presence of helis or 3D/Freestyle

2) What is the classic MONEY SHOT at airshows?: FORMATION AEROBATICS! If there was a way to do an aerobatics competition similar to the way team Aeroshell or the Blue Angels fly, I think interest would SPIKE! Yes, dramatic midairs would be a part of the draw. But for those of us who thrive on TEAMWORK, this would be awesome. A topic that gets me really excited is the possibilities that the digital revolution has for facilitating formation flying of RC planes. But absent leaps in applied techologies, there's only one thing harder than pattern/precision, it's pattern/precision in formation!

OhD

Great discussion. I'd like to thank all that contributed. We got a little bit of everything. Before trying to sum it up I'd like to toss out some more thoughts.

The more I think about it the more I think we have the wrong definition of what pattern flying is. Somehow we've come to the point where you need to go to contests to be considered a pattern pilot. I have always believed that everyone who flies RC is a pattern pilot. They want to make nice takeoffs and landings and in between almost everyone tries to make a loop or a roll. The Jet guys, the warbird guys, even the guys who fly foamies are flying some kind of a "pattern" in the sky. Some are doing recognizable maneuvers and some are doing maneuvers that don't have names (that's an inside joke). Many of these folks have other airplanes capable of doing what we call precision maneuvers. We can tell from the numbers that many more people would like to go to a fun fly or rally or whatever you want to call it and would probably never want to go to a contest. Like someone said, being prepared for a contest is work.

So what is the point of getting more folks exposed to pattern flying? I believe there is strength in numbers. In the old days, there were many people interested in pattern and would contribute in many ways. Some promoted and ran contests, some judged, some served as mechanics and callers. Many came and looked at the airplanes, asked questions and watched some flying. Many then said, "I can do that" , and got in the game. It seems to me it is like any other activity. Many folks have sports cars but very few do time trials or competitive rallies. Most of them buy magazines and may go to a car show, but by there large numbers the whole enterprise benefits. More people spending more money and with more ideas on how to improve everything.

And guess what? The more folks that are exposed in any way, the more that will move on to the contest scene and as a result there will be more top notch pilots.

The bottom line is, if you want a lot of great athletes or musicians, or RC pilots, etc., you need to start with a system that makes equipment, training, coaching, etc., available as well as a large pool of motivated participants. It will always be difficult to get a pilot, even though he likes what he sees in pattern, to jump into a modern day contest so the fly-in might be a way to achieve what we are after.

Jim O

ExFokkerFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Jim, great topic...

It's interesting that the hobby on the whole is growing leaps and bounds, but competition is sagging in many areas. I think there are a lot of reasons for this, but I think it could be just a general aversion to competition in a traditional sense. Pattern, and other facets, require discipline. You have to practice, and you have to enjoy it in order to progress. Many modelers don't seem to find this appealing anymore. Freestyle type competitions get a lot of attention, mostly in helicopters, but even those are just a select group of pilots.

I do think that we can bring people in, but we might have to look at getting the word out in a different way. The hosts from RC Today Show, a weekly podcast, tried their hand at a pattern contest not too long ago, and had a great time. They talked up the contest and the competition side of the hobby for a couple of episodes and judging by their forums, it seemed to drum up some interest in pattern and IMAC. The guys got hooked no doubt due to the help of the CD Scott McHarg, one of the hosts brought home a 2m Vanquish.

There are a number of podcasts out there, video feeds on Youtube, etc. This is the new way to get the word out, not many people read Model Aviation anymore. And when I got interested in pattern in the 80s it was by reading Model Aviation, reading Jim's articles in RCM, Dean Pappas' articles, seeing the writeups in the mags about the nats and worlds... We need to find a new way to spark interest, and the 'new media' is the way to go.

I also think that there is a move away from club participation as well, and that might be one thing that is hindering competition. With the types of models available today, it's so much easier than it was to just go to a park or open field and successfully fly a model for the first time. Thirty years ago, this almost always resulted in dispair, today it's the exact opposite. Clubs are just not perceived as being a necessary part of the hobby anymore. We see that where I live, we have quite a few modelers in the area, but hardly any active club members. It's just different now.

Tom M

Smooth Pilot

The person that took the Vanquish home at that contest flew a Kaos. The second place finisher flew a 3D plane. Both of the podcast guys had a great time and received a bunch of help including from me. As far as visual appeal there was even a mid-air between me and Charlie "Killer" Barrera that resulted in a fabulous fire fortunately confined to the crash site. As an aside, all the contests that I attended in Distric 6 this year would allow a Sportsman to fly any AMA legal airplane, not just pattern planes. It is hard to be much more encouraging than that.

Sheldon

kenh3497

When I got back into the hobby 5 years ago I "discovered" Classic Pattern, IMAC and current F3A pattern. I thought Classic would be cool as I owned a Phoenix 5 back in the day. I even organized a classic pattern primer for our club that was a flash in the pan. I next looked at IMAC as I love the aircraft. That lasted just long enough to be told, as somebody else mentioned, you need at least a 50cc plane to be competitive. I'm now considering the current F3A but the common denominator, like IMAC is the lack of local contests and cost. I can get buy the contest thing as flying is the best part whether it's in a contest setting or not. Cost is the big bugaboo for me.

Now with the above said anytime you put "competition" in the description the cost is always drivin up and you lose those that want to participate. Heck, I just competed in a DLG contest with my $200 plane. I did good for what I was flying. A "good" DLG is in the $1000 range. A lot of money for a 9 ounce airplane. LOL

I think as a general rule if the cost could be controlled people can understand the sequences and be reasonably successful completing them. I dislike "spec" events like NASCAR has become but I think in this case it might be a good thing. I'm thinking a 90 4C size plane (60ish inch wing). 60 2C and 90 4C engines are plentiful and can be found used for very reasonable price. Servos for a 60 inch airframe should be in everybodies inventory or are reasonable to purchase. The airframe might be the tricky part. I plan to build an InSight airplane like one of the three at the bottom of this page http://insightrc.com/insightrc-f3a-aircraft.html. Time will tell the cost. I'm hoping to put a plane in the air for someplace around $500 to $600???? This is a price I think most could live with. Admittedly this is an entry level plane but could conceivably carry you through a couple of classes and get somebody firmly entrenched in F3A.

Ken

AmericanSpectre505

For what it’s worth................

Precision Pilots don't have much to shoot for any more. You have the NATS, Regional Championships, The new IMAC World Championships and the occasional Invitational. The loss of events like the long time running Masters Aerobatic Championship, know more recently as the Don Lowe Masters. This was a fantastic event where you had 20-21 pilots the top 10-15 (invitational) from the previous year was automatically invited back. Then you had 5-6 open qualifying positionsto make the field, what a great idea! I did this on three occasions from 2000-2003 and the reason I got into precision flying in the 90's. I wanted the opportunity to fly with my hero's and learn. The TOC was based on NSRCA FAI/F3A pattern points by district to make the field, which automatically eliminated the IMAC guys that actually flew those type planes. These big venues are what helped produce the technology’s we have today in this hobby through creative thinking and testing ideas.

We need more contest like the Don Lowe Masters to come back and provide moreincentive for guys to compete again. Having competed in both FAI/F3A ( Dist.Champion in 2009) Pattern and giant scale aerobatics the District and Regional Championships are skew in the sense, it's more about who can make the most contests. For Instance the IMAC SE region is huge, from Virginia to Florida andthe reason I will not put much time into IMAC, if you can't afford those long expensive trips you don't stand a chance at the championship. The NSRCA district I fly in is much smaller and way more manageable to attend all the contests. A competitive person doesn't want to compete simply to participate (some do), they want the"Big Trophy" at the end of the year for winning. I think you'd see more participation come back at all level and less attrition over all, if IMAC shrunk some of the HUGE districts down to a manageable size. Especially with the economy being soft and consumables being higher. Simply my opinion..............., as it's my Achilles heal.

The Halo factor needs to go away! I've been a victim to it many times ( anyone that competes has) and it's a turn off to those who put in the long dedicated practice times to be over looked on game day. I have always shared the opinion...,you take a mixed group of "Big" names and lesser known from the same class, have them fly the same plane, same sequence and place the judges, so they can't see who the pilot is. I believe you'd have a different outcome everytime. The way competition is meant to be, not a set name of winners every week. At the end of the day, the guy with the most sponsor’s doesn’t always have tobe the winner....

The pattern World Team Selection years at the NATS is another example, as longas the top 5 pilots keep showing up. The contest is between them and 6 through10 are having their own contest. Not taking anything away from these very talented guys, as I know many of them and have flown with some of them. The problem is being honest with one'sself, while judging. No impression judging, that like stealing from someone. So.., ask yourself this question, if for some reason JAS, AJ and BW didn’t show up to the NATS on a World Team selection year who would be the next three guys in line.............................................. ...............? If you just made you’re top three list, you just selected the winners before the contest ever started (and that’s my point and only an example) ;-)

The cost of the hobby has actually become more affordable now then it was 15years ago, for those new to the hobby, in many ways and in some ways it has not. I always try to fly American made products, impossible to do 100 percent. ARF's are more affordable now and the quality has increased 10 folds in just the past few years alone. The companies that offer kits for $1,500.00 to $1,900.00 for a box of wood and some foam are losing to the masses. I have always flown Carden's, but with the likes of PAU, Pilot, Hangar-9, Extreme RC and 3DHS, just doesn't make sense to spend several months building a plane when you can be flying in a week for half the price and win with an ARF that will last for years.

This same question/debate comes up all the time, it falls on deaf ears or those with thepower to push change, perhaps becoming complacent with protecting their owninterests maybe. Attendance is down all over..., why not try something different for a change; at the Big venues like Clover Creek, TAS, instead of invitational’s,everyone has to qualify and you have elimination rounds every day based on total score, alternating qualified judges every day. Give the sportsman level pilot something to shoot for, a dream to work toward! The arrogant pilots that don’tlike that format won’t come!!!! It’s like having 20, 2000lb grizzly bears fighting for the same fish and for those that get to watch, you just don’t know who’s going to win! Trust me.., they exist like, little spoiled brats that need a spanking.

You want to repair and re-grow these segments of competition, focus on the things that push people away or have forced people away. Work at bringing them back and the rest will come.


I’m just pointing out things that no one wants to say out loud.... food for thought. The next contest I go to, I'll finish last as punishment for writing this........ lol.

Bill