Troy Newman

Hi all,

as promise a few weeks ago here are some pics of the latest header product from NMP sold though Central Hobbies

I have been running it for a while now, several months, and it has been flawless. Its light and runs cooler with better performance.

Below are some pictures of the setup I'm using in my new model. I works great!

Important to follow the instructions with the header. This is a totally new system of attachment for a header and it works really well.

Below here is a picture of the parts: New NMP header parts, ES new 160DZ pipe, and a 160DZ. This header will work on the 120's and 140's even the non-DZ motors. The AC motors like the 120AC and the 91-110 motors will not allow use of this header as the airbox is in the way.

Troy Newman

This is how it works. A small bushing is tightened into the head of the engine. And the header body gets clamped to the side of the engine. High Temp Silicone 650deg F or higher temp stuff is needed as we have found the exhaust gas temps to up above 700degs F at times.

Attach the header to the engine but do not tighten it up until the pipe is mounted up. This will insure proper alignment and also keep the header from coming loose when everything gets hot and starts moving.

Troy Newman

I mount my pipe at the front of the pipe neck and at the stinger. This works the best for and I don't break headers. I don't use any braces or anything special....Been doing this since 2000 without a brace and not broken a Header yet.....

I mount this pipe all up and tighten the tie straps before I tighten the bushing into the head of the motor. This relieves any stresses in the system and makes sure everything is aligned properly.

Here are pics of the front and rear pipe mounts I use. The front mount is merely some Aerotrend tubing over the CF pipe neck. This keeps the hot pipe from melting the tie strap of the plastic Dave Brown Pipe mount. Same thing at the stinger mount. This new 160DZ pipe is the ES pipe sold via Central and has a 5/8" aluminum pipe with the bead on it to accept the teflon. No more stretching the teflon to fit the 3/4" pipe inlets.

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Troy Newman

Once its all mounted and tightened up...a little silicone on the the cover plate and it gets installed. The final setup looks like the pics below. The little retaining screw is a safety thing to prevent the cover plate from backing out. I have not have a cover plate come loose but the screw is a little insurance.

Also you can see the hole in the belly pan. Its neat and clean.

Legend4

Thank you for the set up info Troy. I am patiently waiting for mine to arrive.
Trevor

Rcaerosport

Great stuff Troy! How about more pictures of your new plane?

Derek

rctestpilot1

Troy,

Great hints on the new header and pipe combination. I take it that your pipe is the 20" model on the Central Hobbies web site. I saw the new header this past weekend and thought WOW! How is the aluminum fittings holding up? Any sealing problems?

I'm in the process of building an Enigma with the 140DZ

Mark

Troy Newman

I use the high temp silicone 650+ degrees....I have heard of some people melting the silicone and they 700 degree stuff should be used. This is produced by Permatex and is part number 101BR...Its will take over 700deg F temps.

I have not had any sealing problems....Notice the silicone is used to seal as well as acts like a thread locker.

Another thing I have heard of is that some people are having trouble keeping it tight...As they are moving the header in a rotational manner on the head of the motor after its tight. If you do this you are lapping the two surfaces and you will not get the friction fit to keep it from coming loose. If you mount your pipe before you tighten the threaded head bushing then it is impossible to rotate the header on the head of the motor....As shown in my pictures above the pipe should be mounted...as in mounted up tight as if it were ready to fly. Then tighten the threaded bushing into the head of the motor.

Another note is that with the silicone dry time at 24hrs...you should not disturb the system once tightened up for this amount of time or leaking could occur. Once its all tightened up and cured it I have not seen one come loose! I understand it seems like a pain but if you follow the directions they really work well.

The aluminum fitting should not wear at all...they are not meant to be removed every day you go flying. The threaded bushngs will not wear any more than the the thread inside the head of your motor.... My headers have been very reliable.

Scott Smith

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks Troy, that info is very timely as my FZ melted the 650 degree silicone out after 8 flights (a new engine being run very rich.) The bushing took a wrench to get out so it wasn't that loose, but it was blowing a black oily mess so there was some fretting. I picked up some 101BR (packaged as ULTRA COPPER) this afternoon and will reassemble. <Sure would be nice if NHP would include a tiny tube of this stuff with the header.>

What about using a copper 'crush gasket' between the header and cylinder head? With the 24hr cure requirement, field maintenance is out of the question.

Scott

quist

My Feedback: (198)

I see that Insane foamies extra has not gotten to far!

Troy Newman

I would say look at your cooling of you motor and header system. If it melted the 650 stuff on an FZ running rich I think you may be hotter and or leaner than you think. I'm running the 650 on a 160DZ and its not melting out.

You might be working the motor too hard and its making a bunch more heat. The FZ works well on a 15-11 or 15-12 maybe a 16-10 but it tend to get louder....Look for about 8600rpm on the FZ. Unless you are trying to make noise at the NATS the motor will be really happy at this RPM and will probably get better flow for cooling too. I have found loading these things down in the Low 8000's (8000-8100) will make a bunch of heat and really over load the motor. What I tend to do is run the motor up in the 8500 range with a smaller prop and then back off the travel adjust to get the power I need. Example On the 140DZ I run it at 8600 full out with the 16.5-12W on CP 30% heli fuel. Then I Travel adjust the motor back to 8200-8300 as this rpm will make all the power I need and meet the noise limits. If I go to the 17-12 std on the 140DZ it will turn around 8000-8100 but it really works the motor a bunch. The pull is a little different and both make noise limits at this RPM....I have used the 17-12 some at the NATS depending on the weight of my model. The lighter ones like the 17-12 where as the heavier 10.5+ model liked the 16.5-12W

On the 160DZ I'm still playing with props. I know the guys that have been running them like Chip and Quique ran like 18-10's and 17-12W's...I've been running the 17-12 std it turns it full open at 8400-8500 when new fairly new. I think this is a touch noisy and I bet back this same prop back to 8200 or so will yield tremendous power.

Ok enough on performance of the YS motors...

Try the Ultra Copper and put some on the face of the header where it mates to the exhaust flange and see if its OK....If not then look to your cooling of the motor. With these big fuse models we tend to cut really big holes in the nose for air inlet...but it can divert right around the motor and out a glow plug access hole or the likes....you may want to get one of those Raytek temp guns and see what your head temps are running...I would not be surprised if your temps are higher than others.


As for the small tube of the Ultra Copper....NMP has been working on that. The problem is Permatex doesn't sell a 1oz pack of the stuff as they do with other products. So you get like 6ozs for $6-$7.

Tony, nothing on the foamie airplane....flippity floppity is for kids and I've been working on getting some new models going.

I'll be posting up the stuff I have been working on in the next few weeks. New models and I have had 3 contests in 3 weeks and combine that with my wedding anniversary and doing some work over in CA I have not been home really much since the 1st of may.


Troy

wolf123

Hi Troy
in your experience which is the right temperature of a DZ measured with an infrared termo?
Also you run with or without restrictor on DZ?
I've just bought the new NHP header for DZ from Central Hobbies and do you think it works with an Hatori pipe or i make change to an ES160?
Thanks in Advance
Mirco

Troy Newman

The temps really depend on outside air temp and what the motor has been doing...Lots of full power stuff and they will really heat up.

I don't have any current data at this time. I'll get some this weekend. I'm heading off for a contest in California and will try to get some different numbers by Monday or so. Lets just say the temps are well above what we think they are. We found that the exhasut gas temps can exceed 700 degs easy on the Dingo.

This is why the NMP header acts as a heat sink to help cool the exhaust before it gets to the pipe.

TN

fishgod

My Feedback: (13)

Troy,
Do you know of any reason why Central Hobbies is showing the pipe discontinued? Were there problems with them?

can773

My Feedback: (1)

I have measured mine, here is the setup....

140DZ, restricted
15.5x12W APC
XP 30% Heli, 18% low vis oil
Johnson header, Greve 4-stroke pipe
8700 rpm
~15C outside temp, 3600' ASL

90F-95F cylinder head temp
380F-400F header temp measured at the first bend of the header.

wolf123

Hi
But 95F isn't low?or you mean Celsius?

My Dz:
restricted at 9,5mm(home made)
16x10 APC @ 9350 rpm
15x12 APC @ 9200 rpm
15,5x12W APC @ 9050 rpm
CP 30% heli
NHP header ,Hatori 692
200' ASL 22°C outside

Full Power 109°C
Idle 86°C
Header Full 380°C
Header idle 320°C

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Nope it was all measured in Farenheit

Seems like your motor is running quit a bit hotter than mine (300F more on the exhaust).

I didnt beleive the cylinder head temp either, so I grabbed it while running at full throtte and was able to hang onto the motor without burning my hand.

wolf123

Hi
I measured the temp in header,not on, like EGT in turbine.
Another question, how you set cam gear? Like Dave Shadel piston TDC and dot on cam stright up or like Yamada says dot on crankshaft straight down and dot on cam straight up? Because there's about 15-20 degrees of difference on cam timing.
Regards

can773

My Feedback: (1)

I have never messed with the cam gear, just open the box and fly it

I was measuring the temp on the surface of the parts, with the bellypan removed. I am quite sure that one could read many different numbers depending on how and where the thermocouples were mounted.

fishgod

My Feedback: (13)

I talked to Central Hobbies and they said that the website showing the pipe discontinude was a mistake. Just FYI.

Troy Newman

It’s been a while since I've been on RCU guys. Sorry for the delay.

The ES pipe with the 5/8" pipe and inlet is great. My opinion is its the only way to go. The stretch the Teflon over the inlet like we did in the past is not possible at the field on the flight line. I'm really into being able to fix problems and issues at the field on the flight line. In fact if I can't change it between rounds at the NATS I don't install it that way. I can pretty much swap anything out in my model within about 30mins and this is a motor-mount and pipe system change. Servo changes have gotten pretty quick too. I guess I was lucky this last NATS just fueled it and flew and only charged the Batts up on Sunday night then again on Wed night before the finals.

OK now exhaust temps. We did some testing on the NMP headers. and we found that in a 80-90deg F ambient temp day...the exhaust gasses measured with a probe in the header right before the Teflon could reach over 700degs F on extended full throttle running. Now this seems high but this is the gas flowing down the pipe that is this hot. The pipe is not this hot. Another thing to consider is this was 2minutes plus at full throttle continuous before it reached this high temp. In actual use you would not be at full power more than about 10-30secs and this is a really long time. The new 160DZ doesn't need full power just a few places in the pattern. In the right conditions the only time you would need full power is maybe after the upline snap in the P-05 Humpty. But this is really the only place.

As soon as the throttle setting comes below full the temps drop off very quickly...and will run around 200-300 degs F on a really hot day you can climb up to 330-375 maybe at worst case 400degs F.

The new NMP DZ header by the way lowered the temps a noticeable amount in every situation from the old style NMP wrap around header. Also compared numbers to the CD header, and Hatori and the results were lower temps on the New NMP DZ header. This is one of the reasons we got NMP to produce the idea. It works really well.

Note on the Cam gear

I stick the cam in with dot at 12noon when the crank dot is at 6 O'clock. If you are a tooth off it really doesn't change much the timing is not that critical. Advance the dot forward a tooth with the dot at about 12:30 you can't really tell the difference. Retard it a tooth and again no real difference in performance. Miss the setting by 2 teeth and it will not idle well and power is down.

I tried it on a couple motors. just for in for trying to get a little more power or make it run a little smoother. Basically no difference on the CAM settings in the motor is off a single tooth either way.


Troy Newman

wolf123

[quote]ORIGINAL: tnewman

It’s been a while since I've been on RCU guys. Sorry for the delay.

Excused!

thanks for your explanation, a little pleasure to read.
Mirco