I was wondering what the average "Sportsman" competitor flies- do most have 2M ships or are there 40-60 size also?

I have never been to a pattern event (as an adult anyway-) but have always wanted to give it a try--- Just curious what combo these folks are using... I have a Zen-50 with a Rossi-60 that flies great but always figured I would need a 2 meter ship just to not look silly- [X(]

Last part, Are there any old-school airplanes on the circuit? I always wanted an Aurora with either a YS-60RE or a OS-Hanno up front!

Anyhow, thanks for reading! have a great week(end)

Cant speak for what its like in the USa, but here in our Quensland comp, at the last comp there were 6 sportsman fliers. One of them was flying a 2m ship, the rest were flying 50-60 size models. I flew a CM Pro Lark with a YS63S, my mate flew a ESM Extra300 with an OS50SX, there was another Lark with an OS50SX, a fun fly type model with OS46FX and another that I cant remember what it was but I think powered by an OS61 ? In Advanced there were flyers with less than 2m models but above that all 2m birds. Personally Im putting together my first 2m, but really only because I can do it now and wont be able to in about 6 months when my first child arrives. I doubt my flying skills really warrant the 2m but what the heck, its only money and you cant take it with you.

It's the same here in the States. You will see just about anything in sportsman class. A few 2 meter planes but mostly either older 60-120 size pattern planes or Kaos/Daddy Rabbit type planes. Anything that will fly fairly strait.

A good friend of mine started flying Sportsman this year. She is getting better and better. The plane she flew this year was a Tiger 60 ARF, with an OS 61 on the front. She won a few contests this year and placed well. There were also typical sportsman issues with a couple dead sticks and such that took here out of contention is a contest or two but overall she did really well with that model. She does have a new model setup for next year and a Intermediate.

She has a New Excelleron 90 with a YS 110 on the front. I helped with the construction a little and its a very well built model. I haven't seen it fly yet. A good friend of ours helped finish it up and test fly it for her and said it flew very well.

Should be a really good combo for her to fly. I think its a pretty cost effective way to get going. There is a desire to have the latest and greatest FAI level wide body 2m model but you don't need it. In fact even in Masters class you don't need it. The manuevers that masters class is doing this year ( 45 down snaps and avalanche snap rolls) can all be done very well with older style model like late 90's stuff. The newer FAI models are really geared toward the horizontal and upline snaps, as well as the rolling loops and circles that we have to do in F3A. For all the AMA classes you can get by with a older design that is trimmed well and flying straight.

For Sportsman the key is that your motor works and you have a well trimmed and model that is built straight. There are lots of choices. Any of the sticks, Tigers, UltraSports, or event he 120 sized scale aerobatic stuff like the extra's, Yak's and so on will work great.

Another one to consider is the Quique 72" Yak 54. I have seen the kit and its an impressive little model. Very well designed. On a YS 140 Sport (FZ) it is under 11lbs and should fit the bill. This is another inexpesive alternative.


Troy Newman

This is a great question. As with everything I study it first and determine the best course of action. Everyone in my club said the best low wing plane to learn on and fly sportsman pattern was the Tiger 60. So I just finished it a month ago, and getting ready for my first contest. I have a magnum .61 on it with a 12 x 7 prop and it flys very solid. Even if i did build it myself and (it was my first kit) I did, (GRIN) and baring some simple oops it came out fine.

I have been told that the Tiger 60 is good up to intermediate and after that you need to consider an upgrade, however, they state that is still a great sunday practice pattern plane on those very windy days.

A friend just gave me his slightly damaged excellorn 90 and everything I have read is that it is a very surprising stable flying plane. We shall see as I am picking it up this sunday.

Hope this helps.

Wayne

You guys that are about to fly the Excelleron 90 are going to be pleasantly
surprised. A good friend of mine in Louisiana and myself both have Excelleron
(Explorers) with YS 1.10s and these are super airplanes , very comparable to a
lot of 2 meter ships.

tommy s

For flying sportsman pattern here I got hold of a oldish 90 size VMAR Avenger and an oldish ST G90 for a good price. The plane flys nicely, and the engine runs nicely too, so Im reasonably happy with this combination so far. Last year I flew my sport pylon racers at the nats for my first attempt at competition and ended up doing quite well, so having the latest and greatest is not always necessary. Big planes do fly better when conditions are bad though.

Stefan

As a starter, don't worry about what others fly.
Fly a plane that you like. If it is a Pattern plane with a good power for vertical manuvers, it will be good enough.
Find a good coach (preferably a Pattern Pilot), Practice a lot, Go to Contests.

If I suggest a plane, it will be an Excelleron 90 if you can afford with a YS 91, 110, or 120.
My setup for the Explorer/Excellerons are 91SX/FX, wraparound header, tuned pipe, perry pump for one, an old used YS 120SF w/ muffler for the other.

My reason for suggesting the Explorer/Excelleron is that you don't have to get another plane when you are ready to fly the Intermediate.

I started sportman (Novice at the time) with a CG Tiger 2 w/ TT45, tuned pipe. It wasn't good enough for vertical.
Then, started flying EZ Topline 30/50 with YS 53. (That was what I had and could afford & loved it)
Topline was very good, but smallest at the competitions in NorthWest. Actually smaller than the Tiger 2.
Topline has more than 150 flights. I broke it half, but repaired it and flew again.

Personally, I agree with TNewman regarding the need of 2M plane.
By the way, I've seen an Advanced Pilot flying a Boxer 60 with OS Hanno couple years ago.

IP

Ok, now allow me to play Devil's Advocate (it's my job or something).

First, let me say that I agree with everything Troy Newman said. Yes, that could signal the coming of the apocalypse, so prepare.

And the answer to your original question: it depends. Mainy on where you are and how serious those around you are. When I flew sportsman, I flew with a scratch built 2 meter plane. I am convinced to this day anything less and I would have never gotten a first place, flying skill and practice be damned. It's the ugly truth, and we all hate it, but it is what it is. If you pratcice 10 times as hard as the next guy, and he shows up with a full tilt 2 meter, your chances are 50/50 and he'd better beat himself. A properly trimemd 2 meter will put the judges to sleep in sportsman, all you have to do is control your line better than the next guy and you win. Fly straight and smooth, round circular radiuses and loop segments, keep it on a relatively constant line in front of you and between the poles, and the guy with the smaller plane is dead meat. In MOST CASES, I have seen numerous exceptions, so this is not a blanket assumption.

A few years ago when I started out, sportsman was the hottest contested class in the southeast with the occasional exception of masters. Out of 10 people (average), at least 6 had 2 meter planes and knew how to fly them. They usually placed 1-6. Lately this trend has subsided somewhat, but it comes in waves. At one contest you better have a 2 meter, at the next one a Kaos will win every round. So the answer to your original question is that it varies from contest to contest. But there are a lot of SERIOUS sportsman competitors out there who aren't afraid to spend the dollar and do the work do gain every advantage they can. It is competition after all.

And you won't look silly with a lesser plane, you'll look like a sportsman. Believe me, chances are someone will look much worse than you. Especially if there's a crosswind You can be competetive and have plenty of fun and learn TONS with a smaller plane, just don't expect to win every contest, or even have a shot at it. The always applicable exception is that IF you burn enough fuel, get the right coaching and fly VERY good, you'll most likely bring home a trophy, possibly even win if you're well practiced enough. But it takes more work with a smaller plane, that's the part you must understand.

I hope I haven't discouraged you, because that's not my intent. My intent is to cut through the standard propoganda and give you the truth. It's a question of expectation, and you will be much happier if you know what to expect. Expect to have the time of your life, watch your flying skill triple in one weekend, meet some of the coolest people in the world, and LEARN how to fly in a precision manner. If that's what you want, and you should, then you can do that with a 40 sized Kaos. Just understand that the better your plane, the better your shot at the #1 trophy. Keep it in perspective, but above all else, just DO IT!!!!!!!

The reason for my angle on this is that I lost count of how many contests I've been to where a guy showed up with a kaos, and everyone had told him how he could win sportsman with a Kaos (you should know that standard line by now) and then he gets his tail handed to him on a plate by a guy with a ZN Supreme....in sportsman. Then he gets upset because he was mislead, gets discouraged and quits. Not because he didn't win, but because he was not prepared for the reality of pattern: fierce competition at every level, even beginner's class.

That's all, I have some building to do. Get what you can get and then go practice. Then make it a POINT to go compete with this in mind, and I promise you'll have the time of your life and be hooked.

-Mike

6 out 10 guys with good 2M planes in Sportsman??!! What happened over there in GA?...I hope it's not like this everywhere else.. I feel Sportsman should be what the name says, not a full blown, "I must win" class. Competition is great, but a sportsman class like that is what will likely steer some Away from pattern. If someone is flying a 2meter and they know how to fly straight and level from one side of the box to the other, they shouldn't be flying sportsman, even if they know they may finish last in intermediate. One of the nicest pattern meets I've been to, had many non-pattern flyers in sportsman (club members supporting their club's pattern event) and they really had a great time and now 2 of them have started flying pattern. Most of them practiced a bit leading up to the event, but not a single 2M in the bunch. My first year, I flew a 60 size kaos, I practiced, and I won...then I moved up and still placed once with that old bird. The following year I built a 2m and yes, now I am more competitive with a trimmed 2M, but I would encourage anyone to fly anything they have if they want to try sportsman. If you can afford a 2m, good for you, you will love the way it flys. If not, take your ugly stick with you and have a good time.

Sorry, I'll get down off the soapbox now..lol.
-Mark

I won the District IV Novice championship flying a Runaround with an OS91 four stroke. That plane has won contests in intermediate and advanced against 2m planes. A straight, light 60 size plane can be competive against 2M planes up through advanced.

Why? Why would it steer anyone away? If anything knowing this BEFORE going in cold would prevent it. Otherwise, reality will slap them sooner or later anyway. Lose them in sportsman or advanced what's the difference? They're still gone. Sooner or later they're going to need a pattern plane to compete in pattern. You don't bring a 73 malibu to the Indy 500 and expect to win. If they let you in, you could still learn a lot and have fun though, and that's my point. You also must realize some people take this stuff SERIOUSLY. They aren't afraid to spend the money, or even fly all around the country to fly with somebody like Troy Newman etc. (One person in particular comes to mind ) They are out there, and in greater numbers than you would believe. Especially if you aren't in the Southeast, these guys are serious. Your region may vary, of course. If you can win through advanced with a Runaround, then have at it. It simply doesn't happen around these parts, unless nobody else shows up.

BTW what year was that Jeff, and what class do you fly now? Just curious.

-Mike

I won Novice in '98. Billy Borland won a District V (i think) advanced contest with his runaround in around '02. His flew with a YS91, mine flew with the OS. I actualy built a second runaround last year with a saito 100 that came out under 7 lbs. I never flew it in a contest, but I would have been just as competitive with it cause it just felt right to fly. I flew my first runaround for 4 years as my only plane. Currently flying advanced with a Jupiter (still not quite 2M). I started this season with a Focus, which is a noticeably better flying plane than the Jupiter, especially for the 45 down snap and the avalanch, but it met with hard times. The ruanround is a very neutral, good flying plane. Some guy out in Utah (Some Dudes Hobby shop) is still kitting them.

I think your underestimating piloting ability vs plane a little. Didn't Fortino win the Nats a couple of years ago flying a 60 boxer? I'd say that's pretty competitive.

Mike,
Its too bad there is such an impression that a well practiced pilot flying a sport model can't compete with a 2M model in Sportsman.

All I can say it this....Go to the D7 Webpage and look a the current D champs standings.

http://www.klauscompass.com/2004scores_10_21_04.mht

Terry Hemmis, A GIRL!!!!!! is in first place for the District champs right now. She has been flying a Tiger 60 ARF with a OS 61 all year long. She practices some but not as much as she would like. Typical of most of us eh? We'll see how she does next week at our D Champs.

But the guy in 3rd place for the D champs is flying a Summit 120 on a YS 120.
If you look at the results of each contest There are about 3-5 pilots in each of the events she flew and some she won, some she was 2nd and some she was 3rd. Never was she last, and never did she get her butt kicked by a bigger more modern pattern model. basically no butt kicking goign on.

She attended 6 events so far in the results up through contest #13. There are a couple others in there that I know she attended one of them. These results on not on the web page yet.

1st of 3
2nd of 3
1st of 2
3rd of 5
3rd of 4
3rd of 5

So she was not last getting her butt kicked, and yet she has been competing against older pattern models and some more current models in the 120 class. Persistence and having fun is what inspired her to travel to the NATS to watch.

The reason she didn't win the events all year long is not from lack of model. Its from lack of practice, and preparation. She had some engine troubles she had a couple events. This is lack of preparation. This is the key to flying well. Preparation! Both your skills and the model.

I don't know what to tell you other than this is a good record for a first year at pattern. Its also a good result considering she is a school principal and can only fly on Sat and Sun throughout the year. So she only gets 2 days of practice a week even in the summer time. The school admin people work all summer long. She has a load of fun at every event and has yet to complain about getting beat by a 2M pattern model. The current D7 situation is the person that is flying better wins, not the person with the nicer pattern model.

Maybe the encouragement of folks flying these sport models will bring more people to the sport than chasing them away. In D7 you will notice that Sportsman is as populated as any other class in the contest. 3-5 people per event. These are events average 20-25 pilots for all 5 classes. There have been a total of 18 different pilots in Sportsman in D7 so far this year out of the 13 events that are counting. So they are getting about 1 new person for every event. This is a huge turnout in Sportsman. I know some districts that are lucky to have any Sportsman pilots or they have a handful that attend the events. I don't think a person will feel slighted if he or she gets beat by a pilot that is flying better.

But then again who am I to argue the point. I'm out here to be the best pattern flyer I can be. The actual results are nice, but in reality my wife is not going to love me anymore. I'm not going to make it on Sportscenter, or even the DWINGS channel so in the real results...I'm doing it to better myself and to better the activity that I love to to do.

If you have the same goals in your flying, to get better, then give me a call and we'll go flying. If you need a new plaque for the wall....I have some I'll send you, just replace the picture with your picture of choice. There is something that everybody eventually learns. There will always be a better pilot. The game is more than who has the most skill and its more than who has the best equipment. It is who has been better prepared, and who is dedicated to reaching their goals. If the goal is 1st place in Sportsman then you have a pretty easy to reach goal. If your goal is to fly the best you can then a Tiger 6 or even a Kaos can teach you a bunch about setting up, trimming, and flying the model.

I would rather coach a pilot that is flying a Tiger 60, and truly wants to learn and get better, than a person that has the latest and greatest equipment and knows it all.

Just my advice to the new guys starting out.
Troy

@*#$%#&@(@

I just spent an hour fixing dinner and typing, then timed out and lost it all. So I'll respond later.

Good debate though, but I'd LOVE to hear from someone else who competes in D3. Someone that has flown sportsman here in the last 3-4 years. More than once.

-Mike

My first pattern contest was the summer I was learning to fly. Just happened by the flying field not knowing there was to be a contest that day. Rather than going home without flying, my instructor talked me into competing. I had never flown inverted other than doing some loops, had no idea what an Immelman or a Split Ess were. But my instructor called for me and coached over my shoulder. OK, so I placed sixth out of six in sportsman that summer but I was hooked on pattern flying.

This was flying my LT-40 SIG Kadet with an OS 4OLA.

The next summer I flew an Easy Sport 40 and in following years a Four Star 60/ Saito 91.

Have had to move up to intermediate which I still fly with the Four Star 60.

This winter I am building a Giles G-202 which I hope will carry me through the next couple years of pattern flying.

I fly for fun, and if this wasn't fun, I'd find something else to do.

Ok lemme try this again.

First allow me to do a quick recap, and underscore a couple of things:

I'm playing devil's advocate. I said that in the first post, so I hope y'all didn't miss that.

I answered the guy's question. I told him the absolute truth. I didn't compete in the 90s under a different ruleset, I came up through the CURRENT system in the Southeastern United States. I told the guy exactly what I saw, am I supposed to lie and say "all I saw were sport planes?" Sure they were there, but sportsman was and still is dominated by 2 meter planes. More than one or 2, we're talking MOST at some contests.

I don't fly the latest and greatest, I fly a pile of home made sticks with a 2 stroke OS (Not a ZN with a YS DZ) my pile of sticks just happens to be 2 meters and flies really good

Now for the rest. I love to build and design. Flying is an afterthought. I fly for fun, and I compete for fun. But I do enjoy it, as do many others. We're not evil because we like fierce competition. It doesn't matter if it's toy planes, racing motorcycles, football, racing hydros, whatever....we love to compete. Personally I love the thrill of a close contest, going into the 6th round and it's anybody's guess, you fly your ass off and don't blink, and watch the others do teh same, and see where it falls when they call the trophies. *** is wrong with that? It's FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I'll fly with anybody (and pretty much have), I don't particularly care WHY they're doing it or what they're doing it with. But I won't lie to them about anything. I don't think we're chasing anyone away by being either competetive OR truthful. If I have to "sell" pattern, I'd rather sell the thrill of competition, the atmosphere, the people, the skill improvement.....but I won't tell them they can go into Alabama and beat 6 2 meter planes with a Kaos. If he WAS good enough to do it and lived around here, chances are he'd have a 2 meter because that's just the way we seem to be. In North Dakota who knows. Probably.

One last thing, I haven't seen anyone NOT encouraged who was flying a smaller plane. The only times I've seen people leave and not for personal reasons were either they just didn't like the level of competition, OR they felt they were mislead in some way, or they found the people to be extremely arrogant. This one I have seen a few times, and from the most unlikely sources. These are the ones I know of personally.

Troy you spent some time in D3, although a year after I left sportsman, did you not see this for yourself?

-Mike

I think we are kind of saying the same thing. I do believe you can be competitive at the national level in sportsman, intermediate and maybe advanced with a good 60 size pattern ship. Not a 40 size kaos, but a purpose built 60 size pattern ship. The trouble is, people that get drawn into this sport have the personalities that they want every percieved edge in competition, so some people end up with a 2m plane, digital servos and a $140 soft mount flying sportsman. I personally think in sportsman that's all it is is: a percieved edge. The schedules in sporstman and intermediate don't need a 2m to be competive. At that level it's staying in the box, flying straight and not landing in the judges box. And having an engine that starts, idles and completes the round. I got caught up also. AFter a year in Novice, I moved up to intermediate, and thought I needed a 2m (built an Arch Nemesis) and promptly got whipped by Fortino flying that 60 size boxer. But, again, I'm like everybody else. Dreaming about, and building a world beater 2m is part of the experience!

PS: I'm pretty sure district IV is as competitive as you guys down in Georgia! Come on up to the district IV-V shootout next year and see for yoursef. (If you can put up with those Chicago guys )

OK,

Let me add my 2 cents worth here as someone who has just spent this last year
flying Sportsman in Dist 6 with a Carl Goldberg Matrix 40 , powered with a SuperTigre
.60 Bluehead. Can you fly anything in Sportsman ? Answer-Yes. Will you be happy
with the outcome ? Answer- I don't think so, if for no other reason than in the back of your
mind you will wonder if better equipment would have helped you do better.

I don't have a 2-meter ship now but I do have an Excelleron 90 with a YS 1.10 and I can
tell you the difference is daylight and dark. Lets face it bigger and more powerful pattern
ships fly better , if they didn't why would people spend all that money. I'm still getting
used to flying the Excelleron but it is so much easier to control than the Matrix there is no
comparison.

I would encourage anyone , who is interested , to try pattern and you will probably get hooked ,
but when you get to where you want to finish in the top of the finishing order the old Kaos is
not gonna cut it. Who doesn't want to win , after all , it is a contest.

Now , my new airplane doesn't mean I am going to win but at least I know I have an airplane
that is capable of winning.

Just my opinion.

tommy s

This has been a really informative thread. I've been a sport flyer for 7or 8 years but am just now getting to where I want to give my flying some purpose. I've gotten kind of bored with flying and I think lack of purpose is why. Anyway, enter pattern or IMAC. As far as this discussion goes I see no problem with the "fly what you brung" theory. Yes, you might do better with a better plane but by at least participating one has had to start to learn how to make a plane do what you want it to do. The more of that a person does the more a person will start to see what better equipment will do for them. It's going to be fun to try to figure out how to make my trusty Bruce Tharpe Venture 60 fly better (meaning I'm going to be back with lots of questions). And who knows maybe I'll get started building that next level of plane.

Best Regards, Jim

Jim,

I hope you give pattern a try. I think you will enjoy the pattern community. This is a great thread.


-mark

I have seen anything from an Ultra Stick to a 2 meter plane compete in Sportsman. The Sportsman schedule is set up as a "get your feet wet" and learn what pattern is all about. I personally feel that you should be able to fly whatever you want in Sportsman, including big IMAC planes. But only in Sportsman. Once you decide to go to Intermediate, you need to conform to the 11lb limit - be it with a Kaos or a 2 meter plane. If you are just getting started in pattern, just fly what you have to see if you like it. I think we loose a lot of potential pattern flyers who are lead to believe they need a $$$$ 2 meter plane to be competitive in Sportsman. Not true. Spend your $$ on fuel - that's the best way to win in Sportsman.

Jim,

glad to have you.


I don't think telling a new guy he can do with a lesser model is lying to him.

My friend Terry Hemmis is winning D7 championships flying a Tiger 60. This right here is a good example.

I think that if Sportsman pilots gravitate toward 2M models it will deter new pilots. I think we as pattern people should keep the idea as fly what you brung. If it happens to be a hand me down pattern model then so be it. But for most they are looking for a 60 sized or 90 sized model that will double as a sport model and a pattern model.

See we get stuck in the mud a bit. We don't Sport fly our pattern models. We practice with them. The average guy looking in sees that all we do is practice with them. One thing the Scale Aerobatics guys have on us is many people sport fly their SA models. If you want to talk about keeping up with Jones....I noticed out here on the west coast the SA guys that are flying in Basic and Sportsman (sportsman-intermediate for pattern classes) are all flying big models. In fact the smallest plane at the contest is usually a 33% model.

I think we should push the idea that you can still be judged fairly and still perform the maneuvers with precision not using a big expensive model. Its not blowing smoke up someones rear when there are more than enough examples of pilots that are competitive with less than the ideal model. Terry flying her Tiger 60 is a prime example. Boxer Bob Fortino winning the NATS in Intermediate a couple years ago flying an old 60 sized scratch built model that was really never a serious competition model even when it was introduced. But he won the NATS with it against BIG 2M models with 140 power plants.

In the Western side of the country we have lots of Tigers', Zens', and now some Excelleron's, and other "sport" pattern models. A Kaos falls into this realm. I think today there are better models that the Kaos out there. But its a matter of what you got to bring to the table. Pushing on to new guy that he may not be competitive without a 2M model is not fair to both his skill and or possible dedication to learning something about the models.

Its all a matter of where your goals are what you intend to accomplish. I'm not going to show up to a Team Selection event flying a Tiger 60. But I personally have seen a Tiger 60 walk the dog on many a 120 sized pattern model. Look to the sequences for what you need in equipment.

Sportsman

1. Takeoff
2. Straight Flight Out (U)
3 Half Reverse Cuban Eight
4 Straight Flight Back (D)
5 Half Cuban Eight
6 Two (2) Inside Loops (U)
EXIT THE BOX
ENTER THE BOX
7 Two Point Roll (D)
8 Stall Turn
9 Cobra without Rolls (U)
10 Immelmann Turn
11 One Horizontal Roll (D)
12 Split "S" K=1
13 Double Immelmann without Rolls (U)
EXIT THE BOX
14 Landing


For this sequence all you need is a model that has sufficient power to do a vertical upline for a stall turn. Enough power to do a 45 deg upline...doesn't need to be long just needs to be straight and at 45 degs. And the model needs to be able to roll axially with ailerons, and fly upside-down.

Beyond this anything else is fluff. There is nothing a 2M pattern model can do better in loops rolls and stall turns than a simple Tiger 60 or Kaos.

There are no slow rolls, 4pts that require knife edge flight, or rudder applied in the rolls. There are not long vertical lines with roll elements. Once the model is inverted it doesn't need to do an outside loop. All it has to do is hold inverted flight....I don't see anywhere in here where a 2m pattern model has an advantage.

One thing to consider is 90-95% of the models out there both pattern models and sport aerobatics model are not trimmed out as good as they can be. If you really work on getting the model to roll axially, draw straight up and down lines, and loop without corkscrewing....a 2m model no advantage over the Tiger 60.

Now the 2m pattern model might be easier to trim, or might handle the wind better...But only in high wind conditions. I think if we encourage the use of these types of models it will benefit us all.

There is another place the Tiger has an advantage...$$$ and the normal beginner in pattern is not terrified of the Tiger 60. He has usually been flying this type of model for a while. He is comfortable with and its rugged and can take poor landings and abuse. Even a wood pattern model that is scratch built like a Typhoon, can be intimidating to a new comer. It is also much more fragile than the average 60 sized ARF. Combine this with the hours of work it takes to build one and the guy with the Tiger can have a new one in the air after a weekend of work.

How many of you guys learning pattern loose a model and then are out of commission for weeks in not months until you build a new model. The Tiger is Cheap, and easy and will do the work required.

I have heard it said the Tiger was one of the best pattern model Dave Patrick ever designed. I think it is an extremely good base model to start with.

TN

I simply see this differently.

Don't freak, I didn't say you were lying telling a new guy he could do with less. Of course he can. The first part where we disagree is that there is more to the story, and depending on where you are, that story gets more pronounced. But I'm not lying telling him there may be more to it.

Then we just part on philosophy. (the world is safe again). In my opinion, from what I have seen in my limited time in pattern competition, there are serious guys in sportsman. They are willing to spend the bucks to have a good pattern plane. They exist, and they like to win. I simply fail to see the down side of this and here's why.

First if they are spending the money on a full blown ship, then they already have a substantial investment before they ever compete. If you make it fun for them and there are other people there who want to compete just as bad as they do, then they are even MORE likely to have fun and stay with it. I don't see anything wrong with this at all, in fact I think these are the guys we should spend more time focusing on. That doesn't mean that we should focus on the guy with the smaller plane any less, but we are letting some huge fish get through the net while we are trying to catch minnows. With me?

And if you show up with a Kaos, you'll have fun but probably won't beat those hardcores. Seems I've said that somewhere before...

A slight tangent but indulge me. We as the pattern guys are extremely focused on getting new guys into pattern. What are we doing to keep the ones we already have? Are we even spending 1/100th as much effort? I could really go off on a rant here but my priorities are elsewhere.

You're focusing on the technical, but not at all on the intangibles and uncontrollable. At any given contest, you have inconsistent judging (ESPECIALLY in sportsman), uncontrollable weather (usually a crosswind of 20mph or greater), and that one intangible that's in the rule book...the part about "presentation".

You know Bryan Kennedy well. Ask him how his sportsman year went if he hasn't already told you. Get details. He should have beaten me on a few occassions, but he just didn't get the scores, and I just didn't get the downgrades. Oh we were always within a few fractions of a point from each other, but every time he dropped a wing tip, you could see it. I could drop mine 5" and you couldn't tell until I had already corrected. That's not the pilot skill, that's not preparation so much, that's the plane. He knew it too, we had many conversations about it. I also saw a arresti 40 smoke Bryan in Ocala, so that's where my exception comes in. There's always an exception, to my way of thinking and yours too.

When it comes to 2 meters in sportsman being intimidating, maybe. It depends on the person. It didn't seem to stop Tommy up there, and he's still with us. It didn't stop Steve Homenda, and he's still with us. The list goes on and on. People you may want to get used to 2 meters in sportsman, because it's the way of things. Back a few years when you had to build your own or have it custom built, (recently), people were much less reluctant to go into entry level with a full tilt machine. But now we have the Focus. The Arresti. And the list is growing all the time. As these planes become easier and more affordable, you will see more of them in the entry level classes. I simply don't see the problem with that.

Now, as far as how it should be? Closer to your way than mine, but it isn't always that way. Reality is closer to mine in many places. It smells like change, and it's a nice fragrance. People that actually fly pattern and LIKE the high stakes and the competition, it could swing that way very easily. You say 2 meter planes discourage new guys. I disagree fully, maybe slightly intimidated though. You said it yourself Troy, look at IMAC. 40% planes in basic. That's a fly anything class too, but then look at thier numbers (in the southeast especially, I don't know about the rest). They aren't scaring off anyone. They are paying the bucks getting with it, so I don't think that arguement holds water. I'm not convinced the "average" sport flier should be our target anyway. Usually people just want to fly, or are intimidated by the very IDEA of competition, long before they ever see a plane. By the time they approach us they have already made up thier mind about 85%.


Ahh well it's late and I need to fly in the morning if this stupid rain will ever quit.
-Mike

Here's another example Troy, Chuck Hochhalter in district 6 flew a U-Can-DO 3D (40 or 60 sized) at his first couple of pattern contests and he won both of them, even against real pattern planes. After seeing how much he enjoyed pattern he bought a Swallow and preceded to win every sportsman contest he attended this year.

I think the best approach is to go out to your field and fly the sportsman pattern ten or fifteen times (not all in the same day) with whatever you have. If you have someone that can call for you then that would be a great help. Then GO TO A CONTEST!!! If I had been left on my own I wouldn't have gone to a pattern contest nearly as soon as I did. I was talked into going even though I didn't think I was anywhere near ready. I ended up having a good time and learning a lot.

What I learned from this is that you don't need to be flying great to enter sportsman, most the other sportsman fliers are in the same boat. Just get yourself to a contest and have fun. Then if you decide it's something you enjoy you can step up to a new plane if you feel it's necessary. But DON'T wait until you have the ideal plane to get started.

There is some truth to what Tommy S. said that once you go to a contest or two you may not be happy with your plane. However, this doesn't mean you won't have fun and won't learn something. Look at it this way, if I have the choice to go to a contest now without the perfect plane I'll still get more out of it than not going at all!

KeithB