I found this very exciting info at http://www.icare-rc.com:

The finest motor for the best pilot: Christophe Paysant Leroux has chosen Plettenberg Xtra 25-13 for his new Oxalys F3A.

Seems like most top pilots are going the electric route for next season.

To quote the topic of the article in the german FMT magazine about the European F3A championships: "The wind of change"



/Erik

Hi Erik,

any info about his li-po battery ?? 10s2p or 3p or 2 X 5s3p??????? and of course flying weight???

thanks

oscar

Actually the info at Icare´s homepage is all I know at the moment. I guess we will know more soon. Maybe Mark Novack at ZNLine knows the details since they are making the plane?

/Erik

hi to all last week end i was talking with cplr about electrics and he toldme that he dont use electrics , he is going to use ys engines


marcelo

So the statement is false? That wasn´t very fun at all.

/Erik

I do think there will be a surge in electrics (no pun intended) as it does offer some unique and intriguing advantages.

But like everything else, it has it's disadvantages as well. I am happy to see Tony F and Jason and a few others pioneering the effort over here. There were a few electrics at the US Nationals this year, and I expect at least twice that many next year.

BUT (<---key word) unlike most, I don't expect electrics to take over. I do think they will eventually offer a very good option for the average pattern flyer, but I am not convinced we are quite there just yet...both in price and technology. But progress is being made, and this is a good thing.

At the same time, one thing that drives me INSANE about pattern guys is the herd mentality. CPLR does something, so I have to do it too. Bull, I'm not CPLR, and neither is anybody else (except CPLR). It just grates me how so many pattern guys think they have to do this or that because some FAI guy is doing it, and the rest of us are about to be left in the dust if we don't do it too. While some things are definitely a step in the right direction for the average guy, I simply cannot believe how many people will hang themselves out to dry with "cutting edge" technology just because they think they have to. More specifically in far too many cases, because some FAI guy told them to do it. And they're flying intermediate with a plane that won't track, and engine that won't run, a battery pack that catches fire and burns thier house down.....because they are WAY over thier head.

Not trying to hijack your thread Erik, but I know electrics are RAGING across europe and whatever happens over there always spills out over here. With the CURRENT state of electrics and the mentality of a lot of pattern flyers over here, well, it does concern me a little, I admit it. BUT when it does progress a little farther, I can't see it being anything but good, and that is really the bottom line. So how do we get there without the efforts of these top guys? We don't, so its great what they are doing. I just hope the hype doesn't get too stupid too fast and do more harm than good. SO far I don't see it getting too crazy, as the guys flying the electric stuff are very responsible, credible, informative, honest and up front about ALL of it so far.

LOL that turned into more of a rant than I intended

-Mike

Hi Mike!

I hear what you´re saying. I´m however one of those guys who think that 10 years from now (at least here in Europe), the guys running IC engines will be the die-hard engine enthusiats only. The reasons for that are many, but besides the simplicity, I think the main reasons (at least here in Europe) will be noise restrictions, etc. And the reason I´m so excited about the fact that electrics have found their way to F3A is not just performance, but the fact that I have been flying nothing but electrics since 1998. That´s almost 7 years ago, and I´m just 20 (soon to be 21) years old.

So basically I find it very exciting that electrics, which I have loved for so long, have now gotten to the point where they actually have a slight edge compared to the IC motors performance wise. It´s still a high initial cost though whereas fule cost is more of a spread cost, making it easier to handle. I didn´t think the day would come this soon that I would be able to live the dream of competing in pattern with electrics, but the fact is that with some careful priorities, I will actually have two completely equipped electric pattern planes by the time the summer arrives and it´s so exciting I almost start giggling just thinking about it. With the recent great motor offerings at great prices, this is becoming available to everyone. If a 20 year old Swedish guy in school with basically no income can do it, many others can too. Well actually I´m not going for a full 2x2m plane, but the new Fliton Infinity 90 equipped with the brand new Modelmotors AXI 5320/28 motor. 1800W in an 8-9lb plane should do the trick. Especially with the 18" prop.

So for me it´s not so much to copy what the top guys are doing (hey! they copied what I´ve been doing for the last 7 years ) but it´s more about finally being able to do what I´ve been dreaming about during my entire 10 years I´ve been flying.

But like you say, it´s far from perfect yet. Well actually, the motors are pretty close to perfect if you ask me, but the batteries are not. At least not safety wise. But as more people use the technology the demand for safer and better performing batteries will be even greater, forcing the manufacturers to make what we need.

I do however look forward to a lot of practise and the great satisfaction of improving my pilot skills this summer and who knows, maybe next winter I´ll be building your upcoming design, electric of course.

/Erik

Well I have to agree with you on practically everything, because you're right. And it can only get better, and that does interest me. And hence why one day I'll do it myself, eventually.

You have to understand though, most of what I am referring to is an American thing. I'm not sure why, but we seem to be a lot more blindly influenced than most. It goes far beyond model airplanes, but I digress, lest I be accused of being anti-american....nothing could be further from the truth. But ya see, given some of the things I have personally witnessed over the last few years, I'm having these visions:

Joe-Bob pilot is rudely interrupted from his judging assignment only to realize his plane is in flames in the pits after a hard landing in a crosswind.

Billy Bubba has now burst 2 large lipo packs into flames, taking out half the flight line.

Buddy boy has had an excellent 5 rounds of pattern, but realizes his $4500 plane is leaving a larger smoke trail than the rich YS flying on the other line. A smoking crater soon follows.

Freddie newbie cuts his arm to hell because he improperly rigged and programmed his power package and bumped the stick on his TX while messing with the plane trying to get it to work properly. (I've seen this one myself).

And what's funny is none of this is really any worse than when the YS DZ came out. I watched Lamar Blair go to the hospital when his brand new DZ threw a prop into his face and split his chin wide open. And how much spinner shrapnel has been dodged by innocent bystanders?

So I'm just cringing is all. I know it'll be a great thing in the long run, it's the short term that worries me a little

-Mike

I´d say though that all (and I mean all) blown packs I´ve heard of, has been caused by mistakes by the user or a manufacturing error in the batteries (very rarely happens). Either not setting up the charger right, not monitoring the charge properly (check that the charger detects the correct # of cells) or not having the plane setup right with lots of airflow over the high-stressed batteries. I think the problem here is when people who have never flown electric before, go get 10s2 or 10s3p lipo battery packs, without knowing in detail the care and effort it takes to keep them working in a safe manner. So basically I think that while the technology can get a lot better (more forgiving for user errors), I wouldn´t blame the technology itself for the problems encountered by some pilots.

Just my 2 cents.

/Erik

Hi Erik ,

first thanks to you & Mike for nice threads

I just interest on a sentence of yours : '' I think the problem here is when people who have never flown electric before, go get 10s2 or 10s3p lipo battery packs, without knowing in detail the care and effort it takes to keep them working in a safe manner.''

ok my situation is same as you informed ; never use li-pos & IC planes (f3a size) but for the 2005 f3a wc in France I will be a Turkish team member and want to fly my new model IMPULSE (from bn models) with Plettenberg motor ....

now I still did not buy the motor+esc+li-pos yet and still have some hesitations for safety of li-po use ( as I never use before!!)

any advice???? or did I still fly with os 140 rx and ys dz???

The bad thing for a new IC flyer I could not get enough information from manufacturers ( motor and li-po + esc of course).. just advertisments on their web stites!!![:@]

thanks
oscar

Well if I were in your shoes, I´d try to talk personally to someone who has been flying setups like this for a long time. Also, I would definately get a smaller electric plane to play around with to get a feel of how things work. For the pattern guys, the Fliton Quiet Storm is one sweet little plane!

Apart from that, here is short list that I follow:

- Check the charger everytime you connect a battery to make sure it detects the correct # of cells. When you´ve done that, double check it (charge is where 99,9% of all lipo fires happen). If you want a system, put a big sticker on the battery stating clearly how many cells it is and make sure the number on the charger matches this sticker. I´ve seen people who blew up 8s3p packs thinking it was their 10s3p pack they were charging.

- Never charge the batteries in the plane. Always do it outside the plane on fireproof material.

- If you crash, inspect the battery carefully before charging it again. When you do, monitor the charge carefully at all times.

- Preferably get a pack with taps where you can check cell balance every 30 flights or so.


I´ve probably forgotten some things, but basically, just do the research before you start using these batteries and I am sure you will be fine. I´ve never had a battery go boom yet, but it was close at one time. A puctured cell after a crash with my shockflyer and I almost connected it to my charger, but luckily did feel the strange smell from the battery and found the hole in the cell before I had connected it.

But like I said, it´s highly recommended (if you can afford it) to get something smaller and fly it a lot to learn how to use these things.

And also, when you read all the horror stories around different forums, don´t get scared of using them, think instead of how to use them safely and you will be fine.

/Erik

I´d have to say though that both of these accidents (especially the one with the electric plane) could probably be avoided with the general safety lessons that the old folks at my club kept teaching me about during my time as a newbie. Never stand in front of the plane! And have the nose pointed across the runway where there is no chance of any person being. With the IC plane that is hard since you need to start the motor, but on the electric plane you can (and I do) stand behind the plane when connecting the motor battery and from there on to takeoff.

/Erik

All great info guys'.
I'll be getting into the larger li-po packs very soon, with the 35% Extra I'll be building from 3D Foamy.
I know the fear of these packs has come from some disasters in the past, and I believe they are still happening now. I have hundreds of flights on my li-po's with no problems, except, as an electric newbie, when I just had to fly, no matter how windy it was, and discharged a pack at a rate much higher than I should have. The pack swelled up to twice the normal size, after which I discarded that pack. In charging my packs, I charge them as recommended and never had a pack get more than a little warm to the touch.
I for one am moving toward electric power, more for the innovation process than anything, I just love to try new things.
As for electric Pattern, I may be trying that for the '06 season, I haven't made my mind up yet.

And Mike, I know I've said this before, but come on buddy, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!!

See ya',

Ken

Well that's sort of my point Erik, the technology is fine, but the learning curve (read: people) and a few faulty components usually spell disaster in the beginning of any new technology, some just have the capacity to be more dangerous than others. Added to the fact that there is NOT a lot of step by step info out there right now, this usually means whoever is messing with it had better know what they are doing or take a LOT of time to research and be very very careful along the way. And most people around here don't do that. Heck most people don't even bother to read the directions at all. Hence why we have had so many lithium battery fires (not just lipos). LOTS more than the general public is aware of, and I'm only privvy to that knowledge because of a particular incident involving a plane I built for someone and new FAULTY lithium batteries. Believe me when teh legal wheel gets turning, all kinds of buried secrets pop up

That plus watching so MANY dumbos at my local field screw up royally because a local sponsored pilot keeps telling them to use a certain brand of lithium battery, then telling them "no special precautions, it's totally safe". And of course, you can imagine what happens when local dumbo hooks up his hobbico fast field charger and wonders "what's that smell". Then he's asked why he put them in his plane with zip ties and is charging it with a sport charger at 2 amps on a nicad setting, and he says "because {insert sponsored hot shot pilot's name here} told me I needed these batteries".

He didn't tell you you needed a special charger? "no".

He didn't tell you NOT to hard mount them to the airframe? "no."

He didn't tell you that you should really take them out of your $4000 plane while charging? "no".

He didn't tell you they could catch fire under certain circumstances? "No he said they were perfectly safe and nothing could go wrong, it even says so on the web site. He just told me I needed them."

Did you at least read the directions even? "uh well I saw where you hook this wire up to this and charge through this wire here."

This actually happened at the field the other day. And this was a reciever battery, a lipo. I was flying and I smelled electrical smoke, turned around and this HUGE plane was smoking.

Now this is only the LATEST installment of some of the stupid crap I've personally seen. Can ya see why I'm cringing a little?

And yeah I do tend to pull out the stops in a discussion and play devil's advocate. Hey it gets boring reading the same old "what engine should I put in my ____" posts.

-Mike

[quote]ORIGINAL: MHester

That plus watching so MANY dumbos at my local field screw up royally because a local sponsored pilot keeps telling them to use a certain brand of lithium battery, then telling them "no special precautions, it's totally safe". And of course, you can imagine what happens when local dumbo hooks up his hobbico fast field charger and wonders "what's that smell". Then he's asked why he put them in his plane with zip ties and is charging it with a sport charger at 2 amps on a nicad setting.



Mike,
I suppose one would think, when using new technology, one would do a little research. I have been on several battery manufacturers' websites, in researching the custom packs I need for my 35% project, and have yet to see where anyone has claimed "perfectly safe" or "no special precautions necessary".
Though I hate to see anybody lose an airplane, if you have that much money in a bird, or any amount, you better protect your investment with a little reading. The warnings are everywhere!
We can only hope that, those of blind faith, only lose their plane, not taking mine with it[>:]. I already lost one plane while a fellow club member just had to check out his crashed airplanes' control movements while I was in the air, on my freq', while I had the pin.

Ken

I know this is going to be the wrong time for me to post cause I'm leaving town for 9 days, but ask yourself this....

Why do I want to fly an electric set-up in my pattern plane?

-it's cleaner: yes

-it's easier to fly: no

-it's easier to maintain: no

-it's easier to set-up: not necessarily

-it flies better: no

-it's the latest and greatest: not necessarily

-it's different: yes

Why did I do it: I made the World Team and I wanted to try something different (seems to be the norm for me). Only 1 person had tried electrics at the Worlds, years ago, but I knew that it would work now. it takes A LOT of work and A LOT of money to do electric pattern right now. It's not for everyone, and I certainly don't push it. Most of the time I find that I talk people out of doing it, unless they are die-hard electric pilots in the first place, or really, really want to.

Did I expect others to convert to electric: yes. But I didn't expect it to generate so much interest.

If you're ready to do a bunch of work to fly pattern, go electric. If you just want to go out to the field and get your practice flights in, one after another, and pack-up in an hour, with minimal work effort and cost, keep you IC motors.

Jason

Jason,

That's why I will probably wait a couple of years, to try electric in pattern. First, next year will be my first full schedule in pattern, second, I'm going to get my feet wet in this large scale experiment first.

No way I could afford to do both planes in the same year.

Ken

One thing I'll add about electric pattern, I flew my smaragd for the first time on saturday, spent about 9 mins in total in the air, and I was up there for 3 hours. Like JAS says if you want to go to field and get practice in, take an IC plane, keep the electric as your competition or to fly once in while as it takes ages to charge the batteries. I loved flying mine and the power is unbelieable, but I'll always have an IC powered plane so that I can practice on.

This is why I have high respect for these guys, straight talk and no BS fluff. I can believe what I read from Jason, and Tony too for that matter.

Congrats on your (long overdue) nats win Jason, and go kick some tail at the Worlds!

-Mike

I think Jason´s post is great. I do however feel that for me personally, there really is no alternative. Due to flying electrics for so long and only having used IC motors for a couple of years (Cox Babe Bee and an ASP .15 7 years ago), I am am sure that if I were to start flying large 110-160 sized IC motors, I would surely get in way more trouble than I can handle , whereas I know the eletric stuff inside out and how to work out quirks, etc.

So for me, the "it´s easier to maintain" and "it´s easier to set-up" would be a definate yes on both, simply because I know the stuff.

Not that it matters at all at my level Jason, but is there really no flight advantage at all with a 22" prop (downline braking?) and non-changing CG at world class level? Just curious.

/Erik

I'd like to make a few comments regarding Jason's comments.

-it's cleaner: yes

Definitely agree. Everything stays cleaner, inside and out.

-it's easier to fly: no

I disagree. The instant power and smooth response makes it easier for me. Speed control is incredibly easy compared to IC engines.

-it's easier to maintain: no

I disagree. The lack of vibration makes airframe maintenance almost non-existent. And the lack of servo wear makes keeping the model in trim much easier. As for powerplant, I don't find electrics to require any more maintence, especially if comparing to a 4-stroke engine. And if you have to change a motor/controller in the field, it is far easier, especially considering that you have no tuning of the new powerplant to do like you would with an IC engine.

-it's easier to set-up: not necessarily

I think it's easier. No tuning of the engine for different conditions. No worry about idle adjustments.

-it flies better: no

I disagree. The smoother power from an electric and the lack of vibration just seems to create a smoother flying model. And the fact that without servo wear the model stays in trim longer makes it easier to be consistent with it.

-it's the latest and greatest: not necessarily

Really doesn't matter if it is. Competition is the determinating factor. I guess I could say that after years of trying to win the Nats, the first time Jason flies an electric at the Nats he wins. Maybe just coincidence, but I think it is a factor.

-it's different: yes

Have to agree.

There is no doubt that electric is only going to get better and better as things mature more. Right now I would have to agree that perhaps at this time it is not for everyone. But if you are willing to learn a few lessons, and spend not a small amount of money, it is a very nice alternative.

The electrics are getting very popular. But, they concern me because you can never tell when the motor/prop may start or stop. I think that they are best treated like a firearm, e.g. they are always loaded and never point it at anyone.

8178,
One of the first things you learn, when you start in E-power, is that you never leave your batteries connected, until you are ready to fly. It is as simple as not plugging them in or running a switch in line, and you are told to not always trust the switches.

I've personally never seen one start without a transmitter input, not saying it can't happen, however, it can't happen without the battery pack connected.

Ken

I saw a motor in a helicopter suddenly stop while it was in flight and after picking up the all the pieces the motor and system tested fine. Another guy was having radio problems and the motor started while is aircraft was in the pits and he wasn’t holding the aircraft. Holy cow! I got away from that puppy ASAP. You would think they would not connect the battery until the aircraft is in position on the runway. I think the loaded firearm approach is a good one.

I see your point, on the aircraft that started in the pits, that would wake you up a bit.
Understand though that there's a good chance he wasn't abiding by the common sense safety rules of electric power. With the battery connected, you are depending on a $.30 electronic component in a switch or speed control to keep that 18 to 24 inch prop from tearing something up.

As for the heli incident, that can happen with any kind of power plant. I sounds like some sort of connection problem, maybe battery pack to ESC, who knows, but its a big problem when any motor quits in a helicoptor.

Your concerns are valid. Everyone needs to stay alert in the pits, no matter what power systems the folks are running.

Ken

Just a side note, when anybody is playing around with their transmitter, especially with a connected electric powered plane, maybe that individual should be straddling their fuse with the stab against their legs, I don't know, it's just a thought.

Ken