No material restrictions. Most are building with as much carbon fiber as they can to keep them light. To light wouldn't be good either though in my opinion. Most are going with the widebody tall fuses as they perform fai schedules better. Also 4 blade props are becoming very popular now. They give a constant flight speed in all lines.. Fixed gear has become the norm, not that I have any. And there are no height restrictions for how tall you could build the plane. There is a sound restriction of 98 db. And electric pattern ships are starting to do well.

Krishlan

Thanks patternflyer1!
In inches what would 2 meters be?

2 meters is approx 78 3/4 inches, but most are built to 78 1/2 or less to be on the safe side.

Thanks PepsiMike.

Wow, check out the 2 meter bashing

Ok, what the heck, I'll play.

Kaos' suck. Bloated guppies rock.

Nuff said.

NEXT???

Teehee.

-Mikey

Yup - fatter, slower.... Haven't missed one yet with my trusty 12 guage[:'(]

'Course they're a lot easier to see for us 'older' pattern fliers!!

They are.

Here's your glasses [8D]

and here's your cane (_______

Hehehehehehehehehe.

-Mikey

I was looking at one of the other posts, that had several pictures of the newer birds. I guess I was wrong they aren't bloated pigs after all. LOL

They actually look like cartoon caricatures of real pattern planes from !QUOT!way back in the day!QUOT!, ad these particular Caricatures were drawn by a very near sighted artists. LOL

I like the fact that when I fire up my guided missile, everyone else at the field stops to watch me fly it. That doesn't happen with an Extra or an Edge. LOL
And nobody in my area seems interested in the newer pattern ships. I think the reason that pattern doesn't enjoy the popularity it once had, is due to the size and cost of a decent bird. In the 70's and 80's almost everyone at the club owned a sleek and sexy pattern ship.

Can one of you younger fellas explain this one to me ? Just to be warned if I smell a fart or BS, I will call you on it. LOL. Us older guys are like that you know. LOL

Well, as for the people at my field. They all seem to like to watch me fly my 2 meter planes. I am the only pattern flyer though. They are always saying things while I fly. Oh, you just point them in a direction and they go there. What a bunch of crap. I'm always holding some type of rudder to make my lines straight. There are a few people in my club now though who fly Imac and 3d who have bought 90 size pattern ships so I have heard because they want to become better pilots. Go figure.
I feel that the reason pattern is dying is not because of the price of pattern ships. Half of the people at my field have at least a 33% plane with the same amount of money or more in them as a 2 meter pattern ship. Pattern is dying because of 3d or at least people who try to 3d. Alot of people I talk to don't know anything about the new 2 meter planes and therefore don't get back into pattern if they used to fly it. Also, they have no one to show them what the manuvers are, and no one to call for them. It's a shame really. I have so much fun flying pattern and the newer designs, engine power, 4 blade props really make a huge difference in how much easier pattern has become. Plus the manuvers are such a challenge compared to in the 80's. I'm not bashing the older stuff so don't get me wrong. I still have a curare. Just trying to give my opinion on this subject. My favorite old design is still the EU1. That plane was awesome.

Pattern is all about the presentation throughout the whole flight now. Pattern is turnaround manuvers. Yes it has changed and therefore so have the designs. If it were given half a chance by people, they might see how fun these "bloated pigs" really are... They sure do fly nice.

Krishlan

Price is definately an issue for me. Thats why I wondered about older less expensive designs being competitive. I really don't care to fly pattern, but it will make me a better flyer. But wouldn't you be a better pilot if you could fly 32point rolls with a trainer vs. a pattern ship?



To solve the cost problem, I will design a plane that not only looks good, but is cheap to build.
Any ideas? Anyone?

You would probably be a better pilot to do a perfect 32 point roll with a trainer than a pattern ship. Way better.. And believe me price is a huge issue for me also. HUGE....
Anyhow, my opinion for a cheaper plane would be a 2 meter with an os 160 fx (289.00) or the supertiger 2300 (149 w/ muffler). Standard microservo on throttle, decent midgrade servo's on all other control surfaces. For battery, nimh or Nmp lithiums as they are cheap with a voltage regulator. You'd probably want to go with a fixed gear design as it would be cheaper than retracts. If you want to go with foam wing cores. You could probably get some cut here http://www.dbalsa.com/index.html Get some good contest balsa, and the rest would be up to you. I did this several years ago and i still have the fuse, unfinished.
Now you can get a 2 meter plane arf for under 500 complete. I think if you build your own design up to the arf stage, you'd probably have 300 in it. It would still save you 200 which is a fair amount of money.
So as I see it;

300 or 500 for plane to arf stage
250 - 300 for servo's
65 for reciever (non pcm)
40 battery
30 regulator
200-400 engine
40 engine mount
75 for misc.

Still have the same in it as any other hanger 9 arfs, and would be fairly competetive. You could actually have around 1000 in it. Not to bad really.
I'm not saying that I would build a pattern plane with these products, just that they are available. The supertiger 2300 is a decent motor as I have one. Great deal for 150 bucks at Tower. Servo's, servocity.com has a great selection of Hitec's and Futaba I believe. Not that I use hitec's or futaba's but they are good servo's.

I have a good friend who was flying a tiger arf in novice last year. He was very squirrely in the air. His manuvers were very fast and sometimes not controlled properly because he had no time to make corrections and also didn't have the upline power that he needed. He now has a focus from piedmontmodels and what a difference in how he fly's. I mean its a huge difference.

If I can be of any help to you finding places to save you money or for ideas I would be glad to help. After all that's what will help people back into pattern. Cheaper planes and friendly helpful advice from people who fly pattern. .

What size are you thinking about designing?

Krishlan

Hey Mikey,
Don't forget the depends... [:-]

There's no such thing as a 'bad' pattern airplane they all fly well regardless of vintage. The 'rocket ships' of the late 70's and early 80's were attention getters 'cause they had screaming .60s up front and we flew a little differently in terms of presentation - especially those long, low, and close rolling maneuvers. Now we fly in a much more disciplined fashion and a helluva a lot quieter! A bit less spectacularly, but more impressive from a precision perspective. I love flying both, but my old 'rockets' are much quieter than they used to be and my ears are grateful as are our flying field neighbors!
Pattern rules,
Will B.

All right I have to call BS. Price is a big portion of the picture here. There was a time when you could be competitive with a 40 to 60 sized bird, and that was in the top categories of competition, now to win at the top you seem to need a $2000 airframe, a $1000 motor and a $1500 radio. Thats why every Tom, Dick and Harry doesn't have a pattern plane anymore. I can remember when we would have a club pattern meet and 3/4's of the club would show up with a pattern plane. So don't give me BS about the big gassers costing more than a patten ship. LOL


Stop the Madness. LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLLOL

Do you own a big gasser? I doubt it but if you do check what you have in it. 3500-8000 at least. How's that not the same? Go back in your hole. LOL. And half the people at my field have them..... Maybe we should start a post in the imac forum about why they don't fly pattern. I bet it has nothing to do with money and the fact that you think new designs are ugly. I don't understand that. I think you are stuck in the past and that's fine. We all have our thing. I love the looks of my curare and also my newer stuff. I think I will find the appropriate forum for that question and post. This has me interested in the responses.
And I wasn't saying that the cheap plane with a supertiger would be winner because it certainly would not, but I bet if in the right hands it would do pretty well. I'm just trying to help woops out . I think as a (own design) starter plane I would go with a 2 meter size. And you can get the price down if you don't want the best stuff. That's all I'm saying here.. As that was a few issues that were brought up in this thread.

People, if you are intersted in getting back into or getting into pattern, there are alternatives to the 2 meter stuff in the 90 size that are priced well. Contact me if you want. I'll try to help you. And if you just want to fly sportsman class, fly whatever plane you have that's capable of the manuvers. We're all interested in pattern growing again into what it was some time ago..

Krishlan

Let me give you my perspective, as a pattern flyer, as to why I think more people
don't fly pattern. I think it has very little to do with money. I started flying pattern
in 1969 till somewhere in the 80's and because of job, marriage, etc quit flying for
over 20 years then started again last year. I still flew airplanes , just didn't have the
time to invest that is needed to be any good at pattern.
You can take any halfway good airplane and go out for a day and enjoy yourself, it
doesn't need to be as precise as a pattern ship. I think a lot of people like 3-D because
they can just fly all over the sky and do any sort of maneuver and it looks pretty cool
and with pattern it has to be an exact size, speed, order, and placement , a lot harder
than it looks. The pattern ships also need to be built more precise, how many sport
planes have you seen with wing adjusters, etc ?
I think most people don't have, or want to invest the time it takes to be successful
in pattern and that's OK, after all this is hobby is for enjoyment, or it should be.
Do what you like to do !

tommy s

Good point Tommy S. I am going to fly this year in pattern for my first time. I am getting into it for all the things you mentioned. I want to know all the ins and outs of everything it takes to make the planes fly as perfect as they can. I have noticed that people seem to just be getting lazier about everything these days. This hobby is no different. Have you noticed lately that the Tower catalogs have more ARF's than kits? 5 years from now when I hope to have my kids involved there wont be anyone left that builds their own planes. It's a shame in some ways but to each their own. I'm not allot different as I have purchased several arf's and other used planes. Time is definitely short these days, but, as long as we are having fun what the heck', right?? I am really looking forward to the competition, even though my plane is old hopefully I can make up for it some with good old fashioned practice.

Laker, what old plane are you flying? Have you practiced at all and have you had any help from a patternflyer. Any q's about anything? I'm glad to hear that you're going to enter your first contests this year. That's awesome. Good luck to ya...
Krishlan

Hi Pattern Flyer,
Its a Boxer 60 with a YS 61 long stroke on it. I am just getting it all put together now so hopefully I'll be flying it in a couple weeks. I just need to get a tuned pipe mount and a mini servo for the throttle. What prop should I be using on this, I think I was told a 14x8 but that sounds light to me. I have one buddy in our club that flew in California and I've recently gotten some other info here. I am sure once I get started I will have loads of questions. Its nice to see that this Forum is this active. I am guessing its kind of a swear word in the pattern section but I may try IMAC as well this summer. I'll have to see what contests are where and if they fit into my schedule. I have tried flying the basic pattern with an Extra 300 and an Ultra Stick 40, just to start to get a feel for it. Thanks!!!!

Patternflyer1,
I was planning on using a O.S. 1.60 FX as a must because it's a good easy to get engine. A full blown 2 meter pattern plane with all the angles set at zero. Good servos that will get the job done and not cost a bundle. The plane will be built up balsa (I don't know about modeling with carbon fiber so I probably won't use any). I don't want to mess with retracts. The plane will be built so that rudder is strictly yaw, elevator is strictly pitch, etc. The idea is a $100 plane that is capable of precision.

Laker, I have seen people do well before with the boxer. I'm sure you will like it. As for props, I have never had the ys 61, but I have had a k&b 61 twister and I used a 13x8. You best bet is to go into the engine manufacture forums and go to the ys forum and ask Dave Shadel. He'll answer you pretty quick. I have seen the extra do ok in sportsman class also. I flew an ultimate bipe once in sportsman.

Woops, I hear good things about the os160. I have the os140rx in a 140 sized Zen 1st edition. I love how easy it is to run it. Way less tempermental than my ys 140's. I don't know if you know this but here ( http://www.gatorrc.com )you can get plans for 26 dollars to the gator typhoon 2000. It's a design that did well about 6 years ago. There are still people flying them, and I feel that they fly and present pretty well. Maybe it would give you something to base your plane off of. I know it did for me.

Krishlan

Thanks Patternflyer1. I was hoping to make a plane that doesn't look like a streamlined tube with wings though.


Does anybody have any ideas of what they would like to see in a good pattern plane. Any airfoils that are good or what to avoid. Suggestions are very welcome.

Anybody?

Back in 2000 there was a kid in Miami who was flying advanced and winning nearly every contest with a nasty old Escape. He said it was easy to fly because it tracked so straight and there was no throttle management. He also said it weighed over 9 pounds and if you squeezed the aft fuselage or tail oil would drip out of it.

I fly F3C helicopters and we are ALL asking the same question; "Why aren't people choosing to fly contests anymore?" When I flew my first heli-NATS in '93 there were 89 pilots in the 4 classes. In 2005 there were less than half that. We have been brainstorming to come up with good reasons and have several ideas.
a) The young fliers of today are members of the "right freakin' now" generation. Anything that they cannot succeed at in 5 minutes gets cast aside.
b) The models, et al, cost too much.
c) There are professionals doing this and you cannot compete with someone that does it full time.
d) They'd rather 3D where the "WOW" factor is high and they get instant attention and noone can say they did it "wrong."
e) It takes too much time to practice and there are too many other things to do.
f) Flyers today are members of the "Harley" generation, that is, they want to do THEIR thing and have no interest in how anyone else does it and don't care what you think about it.
g) Gas is too high.
You can make good arguments for AND against each one of those and I suspect there may be a grain of truth in each but none is the total answer. The places I see strong contest groups are where there is a strong leader who contests and brings his buds with him. Is there an answer? I dunno but I suspect it'll get worse before it gets better.
Gordie

Ok, i can't take it anymore.. j/k i love this stuff.

Do a search in the RCU forums for the "insight". It is an all wood roach, foam cores avaiable form teh designer and the plane flys awesome. All done with a 160 os on a stock muffler with a glassed fuse 10 lbs 2 oz. How can you beat that. I think wing cores, turtle decks, canopy belly pan , well, anything foam plus plans is 175 bucks . Add 175 bucks of balsa... 3 cases of beer, endless nights with an exacto and you got yourself and inexpensive legal pattern plane that is proven in competition.

I went to a contest, had major motor trouble, decided not to fly at all and was "forced" to fly the Insight to keep the CD from killin me (his plane). I won the event agasint some great pilots.

It took 2nd in intermediate at Nats this year and also it will go through the Advanced pattern and if the 160 was on a pipe it would go through the Masters pattern with ease.

I did not mention the original plane with the 140 sport YS motor weighed in at around 9 lbs 8-9 ozs. (HOLY CRAP). Hope this steers you in its direction. Because of its design, you can munipulate the lines all little if it doesn't quite appeal to you.


Chuck Hochhalter