Bladeflyer

My Feedback: (23)

This is urgent message for those of you with the new Icepoint with the one piece wing. I watched the wing come apart at the Andersonville pattern contest. The pilot was in Advanced class doing a 45 degree downline with a negative snap in the middle. Downline was established then came the snap. The wing exploded! It broke right at the joint where the 2 halves were put together. INspection at the crash site the break was very clean, I mean scary clean. The glass cloth used was the thinnest that you can find and not wrapped that wide. The spar structure is all balsa with no ply visible and there was not evidence on any glue at all in the spar joiner box where one would think that a ply spar should have been epoxied into.
For those that have the Icepoint do yourself a favor and take a close look at the middle of your wing. The balsa sheeting is very thin and like I said the glass cloth is very thin and there is only one layer of it. Very easy to seperate the balsa sheeting.
The was another pilot there with a Icepoint who was very interested to see the make up of the wing and was to make immediate repairs to his bird.

The snap was no more violent than any other snap and there was not a lot of speed build up prior to the failure. Luckily all the debree came down within 20 feet and the portion of the wing that failed was very evident.

There were several witnesses to this crash so it was not pilot error putting too much stress on the plane.

Check your wings.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

He's not kidding. Maybe it was an isolated incident, but it failed utterly in a negative snap. No flutter, just a clean failure.

Good heads up.

-Mike

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

Cheap Arf's, light weight way to much power for the airframes. I will be surprised if we don't see a lot of these posts this season.

fancman

My Feedback: (16)

Great advice. I'm putting one together now and had already reglassed the exposed bottom of the wing. I will now cut away the covering on the top of the wing and do that also. You're right about how thin the glass is that's used to join the wing. Really thin stuff!

Bladeflyer

My Feedback: (23)

The other guy who had the Icepoint at the Andersonville contest even talked about running a strip of carbon fibre the length of the wing where the spar should be to strengthen the wing.

If your going to reglass the bottom of the wing you might as well remove the covering on top of the wing and reglass that as well. Your not going to see the top of the wing, which is covered by the fuse and this will help when you get into inverted flight. The top of the wing along with absence of a ply spare is to me what caused the Andersonville crash.

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

Gentlemen,

I was the "other guy" with the Icepoint at the contest. I REALLY enjoy flying this plane, it grooves very well; so fixing the problems I've had with this plane is well worth the effort. Here's what I did this morning in the course of about an hour, let it cure all day. I'm pretty confident that this fix will make the wing very strong - however we won't find out until I move up to Advanced if it is "snap certified" :-)

I used two strips of fiberglass cloth - One 2 inches wide and another 4 inches wide. The West Systems epoxy is nice and thin, and I also heated it up slightly with a heat gun to get it to soak down into the existing fiberglass and wood. The roll of TP is there to blot off the excess epoxy.

The trick to getting the "China-Kote" covering off the top is to score it lightly - don't cut thru the fiberglass - along the inside edge of the purple trim pieces. Then heat the covering material with your covering iron set to a high heat setting. It will peel right off. You might as well go over the rest of the wing and seal everything down while you have your iron out and the epoxy is curing anyway. . . .

Eric.Henderson

I support the idea of adding 20 oz FG cloth to the center section. I thought that it was in my review, I know I posted the idea in several places. I did it to mine.

The planes that have extra glass-clothed their center sections are holding up. (I know "Famous last words!")

Eric.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I've watched Frank do snap after snap after snap after snap with that plane, nothing I would consider "excessive load". He liked the way it flew a lot.

I was also shocked....well, more like disgusted to see what was holding that center section together. I'd put more beef on a 40 size plane! But if the extra glass works, then it's an easy enough fix. I just hope it doesn't move teh failure point out further past the glass....balsa spars are ok if it's done right, but I prefer balsa laminated with carbon. That's a great spar! And bullet proof. But I digress, we're talking about an ARF.

Thanks for the pics Keith! Hopefully that'll keep her in one piece.

-Mike

f3a05

Three layers of 80 gram [50 gram if you're brave] glass cloth stepped out at 6, 9, and 13 inches across the centre line should be adequate.
If the wing seat is fashionally wide, make the central layer a little wider than the widest point on the seat, and step out the other layers accordingly.

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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I just hope your review wasn't "edited" to keep from scaring people off. . . .
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HCRCflyer

My Feedback: (1)

I also out of habit added another layer of thin cloth on my number 1. You should contact Brian at Ultra RC and I am sure they will work with you to make this right. I don't think I mentioned this in my review.at least on my 2 (early production) the fiberglass is wrapped around the whole wing out a foot total in the center. I was very carefull not to score or cut it when working on it.
Klhoard-
I also rememeber Eric talking about this issue. So If you are accusing him of lying you are dead wrong. It may have been in private email But he has been very upfront about this plane.

Before I Fly my number 2 I will check the wing as I will be recovering it anyway. (and I will take pics.)

dentdoc

My Feedback: (3)

Kieth, Could you please Post a couple pics of the Failed wing area please.

Eric.Henderson

Glenn,
I think Keith was more concerned that the bandage-mention was not in the review, or even that it had editted out. I don't feel that he meant anything else. I thought that I had made it a point in the review. But it is more than possible (most likely) that it is on my end and did not submit the right final file. You are correct that we (you and I) openly discussed and advised people to strengthen the wing join. (Many ARF's are lacking in that critical area).

There is nothing in the instructions about doing it, which is what should be fixed as well. Aslo Ultra-RC should help the guy out here. I will be very surprised if they do not.


Regards,

Eric.

dentdoc

My Feedback: (3)

Eric & All, I agree! I personally know how much time & effort Frank put into this plane. He really enjoyed it's flying ability. There will be problems with products now & then, The REAL measure & strenth of the companies is When a problem happens HOW do they handle it!!!
So far they have recieved accalades, We hope this continues.

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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No, not at all!! Now that I've done a seach on RCU, I found the posts in the forum. However, all of those posts were dated well before I even knew this airplane existed, so I bought the plane based on Eric's review that is also linked from the Ultra-RC web site.

Should I have done this search on RCU before I bought the plane? Maybe. What about people out there who don't subscribe to RCU? Would I have still purchased this airplane if the review told me I needed to add fiberglass to the wing? Yes. Am I still happy I purchased this plane? Absolutely - I have a second one in the box in my garage.

It was inappropriate for me to imply that someone "edited" Eric's review. Obviously it was a simple error that this information didn't make it into the "official" information stream for this airplane. The blame for this problem is not with Ultra-RC; it is the factory in China that is trying to save a few dollars by going with super thin fiberglass on the wing.

Welcome to Globalization, folks. . . if we don't want to do the labor here in America, someone else overseas will do it for us. Just don't beeatch and complain too loudly when their product isn't exactly what you personally would have built. Remember, the poor Chinese woman who built your ARF in the sweatshop in Hong Kong is just trying to bring home a little rice for her family - she's not worrying about whether the wing will hold together during a Reverse Avalanche.

I'm sure that Ultra-RC will do the right thing very soon about this.

HCRCflyer

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry That I took it wrong. (early morning reading and I am recovering from rotator cuff surgury.. )
If it is your plane that failed please contact Ultra Rc ASAP, so they can help sort this out. They are a stand up company for sure.
Just in the interest of theis topic I will cut and inspect the Number 2 planes wing when I have a chance to show the construction.
(IT is still unfinished, and will be for awhile. (I only have one usable hand for the next 4-6 weeks)

Lets try to keep this to the facts, not SWAGS. and maybe some good can come out of it IF there is a problem with design or more likly implimentation of it.

ULTRA-RC

Where to begin…....

First, I will be frank……I was very dis-heartened to hear of this situation here on RCU, instead of from the owner himself. Second, it never ceases to amaze me to find the use of the forum as a tabloid to gossip and accuse with little or no facts to support the claims. This is not a positive way to first, resolve this issue, and second to build positive consumer / vendor relations, of which I am a strong advocate.

We, at Ultra-RC, are equal to you. We are not superior nor are we inferior. How we (all of us) conduct ourselves is what sets us apart from the rest. With that being said, I refrained from commenting here on RCU regarding this situation until I spoke with the owner of the Icepoint which occurred today. For the “inquiring minds that want to know”, Frank and I had a very pleasant conversation today and happily resolved this matter.

From all the contact and discussion, it is evident there is a “scare in the air” so to speak, about the Icepoint. So, I will tell you what we know. There were 525 Icepoint’s manufactured. 225 of them were sold here in the States (Actually, we have 21 in stock). The remaining were sold in our Asian market. The Icepoint has been out for close to a year (In Asia it has been more than a year). In our eyes, the Icepoint has been a huge success. And for those of you that support us, and have enjoyed the product and service you have received, I say thank you. To date, we have reports of 2 (two) wing failures on the Icepoint. The first report came last year. I will not go into all the details, as there is a story behind it, but the matter was happily resolved and the last time I checked, the owner has 2 (two) of the Icepoint’s flying.

Frank’s particular situation is unfortunate and we will never have all the answers we need to know exactly what happened. Frank had many flights on this Icepoint (more than 50). He stated he has done this maneuver many, many times. So we both find ourselves asking, why this time?

Regarding the matter at hand, do we feel we have an issue with the wing of the Icepoint? Based on the facts, I have to say no. However, we want to do everything we can to preclude this situation from happening again (even if you have 100 successful flights on the Icepoint). So, as a precautionary measure, we will suggest here on RCU, as well as in our Instruction Manuals, and on our website the following: Due to this recent situation, we are recommending, as a precautionary measure, the addition of fiberglass reinforcement on the center section of the wing, both on the top and the bottom. This re-strengthening of the wing center section is in addition to the existing construction. We recommend mounting the wing to the fuselage and marking the location of the fuse sides on the top of the wing. Carefully remove the Ultracote covering approximately 3/8” in from your marks towards the center section of the wing. Scuff the exposed constructed area. Apply medium to heavy fiberglass cloth, covering the exposed area, with an epoxy based resin. Repeat the process for the other side of the wing. Allow to cure over night. Trim and sand any excess.

In closing, Frank and I have resolved matters and he has a new Icepoint on the way. For the record, this issue would have been resolved the same way regardless of whether the posts on RCU existed or not. Ultra-RC’s every intention is to grow as a reputable company. We do not build these models, but we do represent and back them to the best of our abilities. There will always be issues with product, whether it be from a small company like URC, or one of the large companies like Horizon. As I said in the beginning of this reply, we are all equals and can only stand out by how we represent ourselves. With that being said, any one that has any additional comments or questions can contact me directly at [email protected].

Thank you to everyone that supports Ultra-RC!


Sincerely,

Ultra-RC
Brian Hughes
www.ultrarc.com
[email protected]

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

Brian,

I'm glad to hear that the situation is resolved successfully as I knew it would from the beginning. I don't think anyone here wanted to slander Ultra-RC. You handled this problem in a very admirable way, just as I knew you would from my previous dealings with you. My main concern was to share information with people flying the Icepoint so they could keep them flying. We understand that Ultra-RC doesn't build the planes; but there is alot of experience with ARF's in general that indicate that most of them need beefing up in certain areas.

I have one Icepoint flying, and another in the box. Me and Frank are big fans of this airplane, and the service I've received from Ultra-RC has been outstanding. I will still recommend the Icepoint to other people that ask me about it (unless they are flying in my class in District 3. . .hehehe).

To answer your question about "Why did it fail that day"? . . . . Saturday was the day that the Pattern Gods decided to show up for a buffet in Andersonville, GA. Frank's airplane was one of eight casualties that day. . . three midairs and two single ship losses. . . . We were joking about possibly having to call the contest at 4 rounds not due to bad weather, but lack of airplanes.

Brian, since you have everyone's attention here, why don't you tell us all a little about the new Icepoint coming in September?? Will the new 2-piece wing be compatible with the old plane? Will it have a firewall for a Hyde mount?

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Yup no reason to get defensive, I didn't see anything that could be interpreted as Ultra-RC bashing. All I see is a failure of an airframe, and a heads up on a possible weakness. We put thousands of dollars into these things along with countless hours of work, I don't think it's out of line to post a caution/warning/whatever. 50 flights is NOT a lot of flights on a pattern plane. On a sport plane maybe, but we use these for competetive purposes so that means hundreds and many times thousands of flights in a short period of time. I put 50 flights on a plane in a week when weather permits.

In my opinion, and only in my opinion, the center section is a weak point and should be addressed. And I really don't think stating such is out of line.

Bottom line, I'm glad to hear he was taken care of. I never suspected anything else.

But I hope the center section is addessed in the future, just my own opinion.

-Mike

ULTRA-RC

Keith,

Thanks for your support. Just for the record (for everyone), reading on the screen will never demonstrate the tone of the text being written. Meaning, I did not take the posts as slander.....but I would have rather had the same amount of effort go into discussing the situation with me. Everyone should, and will always, here about these situations. There is nothing to hide. Keith, I know you contacted me, as well as several others. Thank you for your concern and support. I just has to speak with Frank personally to get the information I needed first hand and to resolve the problem. I would have thought I would have heard from the owner first and could have taken a pro-active stance instead of being behind the eight-ball so to speak. Well, enough about it......problem solved.

Frank told me how much you liked the way the Icepoint flies. He told me what you set aside in order to pursue the Icepoint and I really appreciate it.

In regards to your event coverage, sounds like it was a rough day. Sorry to hear about all the carnage.

About the new Icepoint........I really do not have a whole lot to report yet. I can tell you this, we have a new 2-meter plane in the works scheduled to come out in the late fall / winter time frame. Due to the success of the Icepoint, we plan on the updating the current design and re-releasing it as well. Due to our current production schedules, I do not expect to see the first proto-types of the new Icepoint to come in until the fall. Production to follow. We are planning on a two piece wing version, and a modification to the front engine mounting system to accept mounts such as the Hyde mount. That is really about all the news I have on it for right now. If anyone wants to email me and make recommendations for additional changes they would like to see, I would greatly appreciate hearing your feedback.

Once again, thank you for your support.

Ultra-RC
Brian Hughes
www.ultrarc.com
[email protected]

dentdoc

My Feedback: (3)

Brian & all,
Frank asked me to let EVERYONE & Mostly Brian know he is very appreciative of the way you guys steped forward & replaced the airplane. Frank does not internet that often but wanted everyone to know that these guys have a great flying airplane & are stand up folks.
He looks forward to flying his new one & thinks the BEST of Ultra RC! Rightly so!

Eric.Henderson

Now we know how they responded - It was good enough for me! Please pass on the word about adding a center layer of 20 oz cloth.

Eric.

Bladeflyer

My Feedback: (23)

My intenetion of this thread was to pass on information to present and future Icepoint fliers. There was no intent to slander or in any way say anything derogatory about Ultra-RC. True this situation was to be handled by Frank and Ultra-RC and I commend them for replacing the aircraft, but for those flyers out there that are flying the aircraft the only way they are going to know about a possible weakness is through a forum like this. These are the people that are out in the system day in and day out.

I would think that the manufacturer would like to warn people about a possible problem. Like I stated in the beginning of the post I was the first on the scene and took my time going through the wreckage to find all possible pieces of evidence as to what would have caused this crash to happen.

Again way to go Ultra-RC for taking care of Frank, he's a good flyer and seemed to really be enjoying the aircraft until the unfortunate accident took place. I also think that the measures that the company took to warn people is appropriate and I wish that other companies would follow suit when a problem comes up with their products.

Erik

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

WELL said, Erik.

-Mike

f3a05

[quote]Carefully remove the Ultracote covering approximately 3/8” in from your marks towards the center section of the wing. Scuff the exposed constructed area. Apply medium to heavy fiberglass cloth, covering the exposed area, with an epoxy based resin. Repeat the process for the other side of the wing. Allow to cure over night. Trim and sand any excess.

With reference to the new instructions, wouldn't it be safer to extend the cloth further out beyond the wing seat?
If the glass finishes inside ,or at, this line, there's a stress riser there. I've seen a couple of wings fail that way.