New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
09-17-2005 | 09:26 PM
#1
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (5)
New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
All,
While I have a fair amount of aerobatic competition experience (about 8 years of IMAC), I have never flown a pattern plane or competed in a pattern contest. I have just recently aquired a competitive pattern plane and am thinking I would like to come out to a local contest next weekend and enter in the intermediate class.
I have a few questions to ask about the sequence:
- is there any kind of time limit to get in the air? Is there any limitation on the number of trim passes before entering the first manuever after takeoff?
- "Humpty Bump with Options". What does "with options" mean? I assume this means I can choose any kind of humpty I want? I can, for example, pull, push, half roll on down line and pull to level or I could pull, half roll on up line, pull top and pull bottom, etc.? Whatever I want as long as it's a humpty and I come out upright and heading back toward the center of the box?
- "Non Rolling Triangle Loop" I assume this is just a plane 'ol triangle loop, yes?
- Manuever 11: "Split S". Is there any criteria about how quickly the half loop must start after the half roll? For example, can you do the half roll, draw a line and then enter the half loop? If so, is there a minimum or maximum length of time for the time between the half roll and the half loop? Or, should the half loop begin immediately after the half roll ends?
- Manuever 12 "Straight Inverted Flight". I believe I am exiting the preceding manuever upright- and entering the following manuever upright. If I am correct, does this mean for manuever 12 I enter, do a half roll to inverted, fly inverted (assume I am centering the inverted portion of the manuver) then do a half roll to upright at the end, yes or no? Is there any kind of criteria as to the length of the inverted flight?
- Maunver 16 "Two half rolls in opposite directions, pause in center": Is there any criteria about the minimum period of time the pause should be? Conversely, is there any kind of maximum length for the pause?
- Finally, after the manuever preceding landing, what is the requirement regarding what you can do - do you have to immediately land or can you fly a couple of passes, do a turnaround manuever, etc., before landing?
Thanks in Advance,
Dave
-
While I have a fair amount of aerobatic competition experience (about 8 years of IMAC), I have never flown a pattern plane or competed in a pattern contest. I have just recently aquired a competitive pattern plane and am thinking I would like to come out to a local contest next weekend and enter in the intermediate class.
I have a few questions to ask about the sequence:
- is there any kind of time limit to get in the air? Is there any limitation on the number of trim passes before entering the first manuever after takeoff?
- "Humpty Bump with Options". What does "with options" mean? I assume this means I can choose any kind of humpty I want? I can, for example, pull, push, half roll on down line and pull to level or I could pull, half roll on up line, pull top and pull bottom, etc.? Whatever I want as long as it's a humpty and I come out upright and heading back toward the center of the box?
- "Non Rolling Triangle Loop" I assume this is just a plane 'ol triangle loop, yes?
- Manuever 11: "Split S". Is there any criteria about how quickly the half loop must start after the half roll? For example, can you do the half roll, draw a line and then enter the half loop? If so, is there a minimum or maximum length of time for the time between the half roll and the half loop? Or, should the half loop begin immediately after the half roll ends?
- Manuever 12 "Straight Inverted Flight". I believe I am exiting the preceding manuever upright- and entering the following manuever upright. If I am correct, does this mean for manuever 12 I enter, do a half roll to inverted, fly inverted (assume I am centering the inverted portion of the manuver) then do a half roll to upright at the end, yes or no? Is there any kind of criteria as to the length of the inverted flight?
- Maunver 16 "Two half rolls in opposite directions, pause in center": Is there any criteria about the minimum period of time the pause should be? Conversely, is there any kind of maximum length for the pause?
- Finally, after the manuever preceding landing, what is the requirement regarding what you can do - do you have to immediately land or can you fly a couple of passes, do a turnaround manuever, etc., before landing?
Thanks in Advance,
Dave
-
09-17-2005 | 11:59 PM
#2
My Feedback: (182)
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
DMichael,
Everything that you mentioned should be available at NSRCA website. http://nsrca.org
Look under the Judging and Rules menu.
AMA Rulebook shows almost everything. http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/05...c-aero2005.pdf
I answered as much as I can below.
Good luck on your contest, I am finally going back to compete next weekend. only two contests within the last three years.
Hope this helps.
Ihncheol Park
P & A Hobbies
ORIGINAL: DMichael
All,
While I have a fair amount of aerobatic competition experience (about 8 years of IMAC), I have never flown a pattern plane or competed in a pattern contest. I have just recently aquired a competitive pattern plane and am thinking I would like to come out to a local contest next weekend and enter in the intermediate class.
I have a few questions to ask about the sequence:
- is there any kind of time limit to get in the air? Is there any limitation on the number of trim passes before entering the first manuever after takeoff? After the take off you have one pass of center line mostly downwind unless the pilot chose to take off downwind (upwind pass). There is a 3 minute time limit to take off.
- "Humpty Bump with Options". What does "with options" mean? I assume this means I can choose any kind of humpty I want? I can, for example, pull, push, half roll on down line and pull to level or I could pull, half roll on up line, pull top and pull bottom, etc.? Whatever I want as long as it's a humpty and I come out upright and heading back toward the center of the box? 1/2, or 1/4 up & down.
- "Non Rolling Triangle Loop" I assume this is just a plane 'ol triangle loop, yes? 1/8 loop into 45-degree climb, 3/8 loop to level inverted, 3/8 loop to 45-degree down line, 1/8 loop to level up & down line should be same line. start & end same position.
- Manuever 11: "Split S". Is there any criteria about how quickly the half loop must start after the half roll? For example, can you do the half roll, draw a line and then enter the half loop? If so, is there a minimum or maximum length of time for the time between the half roll and the half loop? Or, should the half loop begin immediately after the half roll ends? It is 1/2 roll in level flight immediately followed by 1/2 inside loop to level flight in opposite direction as entry.
- Manuever 12 "Straight Inverted Flight". I believe I am exiting the preceding manuever upright- and entering the following manuever upright. If I am correct, does this mean for manuever 12 I enter, do a half roll to inverted, fly inverted (assume I am centering the inverted portion of the manuver) then do a half roll to upright at the end, yes or no? Is there any kind of criteria as to the length of the inverted flight? Yes, you are correct. minimum of 4 seconds inverted flight.
- Maunver 16 "Two half rolls in opposite directions, pause in center": Is there any criteria about the minimum period of time the pause should be? Conversely, is there any kind of maximum length for the pause?
manuever description says " Model rolls 180 degrees to level, inverted flight, pauses, then rolls 180 degrees in the opposite direction to recover in level flight. Center of manuever is middle of inverted hesition." Downgrades: 1 point / 15 degrees on over or under rotation of rolls. heading or altitude change. roll rate, model does not hesitate at inverted.
- Finally, after the manuever preceding landing, what is the requirement regarding what you can do - do you have to immediately land or can you fly a couple of passes, do a turnaround manuever, etc., before landing? Since Intermediate sequence ends in downwind, I've seen some people just starting landing sequence. I don't remember how many passes were allowed, but I usually start the landing after the last manuever. A certified NSRCA Judge should know better than me. I couldn't make to the judging seminar this year.
Thanks in Advance,
Dave
-
All,
While I have a fair amount of aerobatic competition experience (about 8 years of IMAC), I have never flown a pattern plane or competed in a pattern contest. I have just recently aquired a competitive pattern plane and am thinking I would like to come out to a local contest next weekend and enter in the intermediate class.
I have a few questions to ask about the sequence:
- is there any kind of time limit to get in the air? Is there any limitation on the number of trim passes before entering the first manuever after takeoff? After the take off you have one pass of center line mostly downwind unless the pilot chose to take off downwind (upwind pass). There is a 3 minute time limit to take off.
- "Humpty Bump with Options". What does "with options" mean? I assume this means I can choose any kind of humpty I want? I can, for example, pull, push, half roll on down line and pull to level or I could pull, half roll on up line, pull top and pull bottom, etc.? Whatever I want as long as it's a humpty and I come out upright and heading back toward the center of the box? 1/2, or 1/4 up & down.
- "Non Rolling Triangle Loop" I assume this is just a plane 'ol triangle loop, yes? 1/8 loop into 45-degree climb, 3/8 loop to level inverted, 3/8 loop to 45-degree down line, 1/8 loop to level up & down line should be same line. start & end same position.
- Manuever 11: "Split S". Is there any criteria about how quickly the half loop must start after the half roll? For example, can you do the half roll, draw a line and then enter the half loop? If so, is there a minimum or maximum length of time for the time between the half roll and the half loop? Or, should the half loop begin immediately after the half roll ends? It is 1/2 roll in level flight immediately followed by 1/2 inside loop to level flight in opposite direction as entry.
- Manuever 12 "Straight Inverted Flight". I believe I am exiting the preceding manuever upright- and entering the following manuever upright. If I am correct, does this mean for manuever 12 I enter, do a half roll to inverted, fly inverted (assume I am centering the inverted portion of the manuver) then do a half roll to upright at the end, yes or no? Is there any kind of criteria as to the length of the inverted flight? Yes, you are correct. minimum of 4 seconds inverted flight.
- Maunver 16 "Two half rolls in opposite directions, pause in center": Is there any criteria about the minimum period of time the pause should be? Conversely, is there any kind of maximum length for the pause?
manuever description says " Model rolls 180 degrees to level, inverted flight, pauses, then rolls 180 degrees in the opposite direction to recover in level flight. Center of manuever is middle of inverted hesition." Downgrades: 1 point / 15 degrees on over or under rotation of rolls. heading or altitude change. roll rate, model does not hesitate at inverted.
- Finally, after the manuever preceding landing, what is the requirement regarding what you can do - do you have to immediately land or can you fly a couple of passes, do a turnaround manuever, etc., before landing? Since Intermediate sequence ends in downwind, I've seen some people just starting landing sequence. I don't remember how many passes were allowed, but I usually start the landing after the last manuever. A certified NSRCA Judge should know better than me. I couldn't make to the judging seminar this year.
Thanks in Advance,
Dave
-
09-18-2005 | 12:52 AM
#3
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
I believe if you're going to do that humpty with a half roll the half roll must be on the upline. Other than that: you can push, pull, 1/4 rolls, w/e.
On the two half rolls in opposite directions: as long as you have a pause in center, you're ok. There's no criteria for the length of the pause, so technically it could be the length of the box if you want it to be.
On landing: most intermediate pilots go straight to landing because the sequence ends downwind. If you don't want to do that, you have the choice of flying a 180, doing a pass down the field, turn another 180, fly a pass down the field, and land.
On the two half rolls in opposite directions: as long as you have a pause in center, you're ok. There's no criteria for the length of the pause, so technically it could be the length of the box if you want it to be.
On landing: most intermediate pilots go straight to landing because the sequence ends downwind. If you don't want to do that, you have the choice of flying a 180, doing a pass down the field, turn another 180, fly a pass down the field, and land.
09-18-2005 | 01:08 AM
#4
Senior Member
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
One more note on the Humpty with options. The roll options are described properly above but there is also a loop at the top option. They are a 1/2 or 1/4 roll up. If you choose a 1/2 roll then there is no roll on the downline, If you choose the optional 1/4 then you must roll 1/4 on the downline to exit in the proper orientation..."UPRIGHT" in the case of the intermediate Humpty with options. The model also choose the option of push or pull the 1/2 loop at the top of the humpty. Most pilots do the 1/2 inside loop but a push 1/2 outside loop is 1000000% legal as well. Sometimes a pilot will choose this option when its really windy down the runway as it brings the model back toward center over the top and you can manage the box a little better sometimes doing this in the wind.
A couple of notes in Pattern the radii must all be equal within the figure. IMAC allows for the radii to be different on certain figures like Humpty's. Not the case in Pattern. All radii within the manuever must be equal. Now different manuevers can have different radii and roll rates but in pattern for a given manuever the radius of each corner, and roll rate of each roll in the figure must match.
There is one exception in FAI only. In FAi there are figures that include different roll elements. A 4/8pt roll-Slow roll opposite direction. The 4/8pt need not be the same roll rate as the slow roll. Or to an extreme a square loop with 1/2 rolls up and down and 2/4pt roll on the horizontal lines can have different roll rates as they are different types of rolls. But a 3/4 slow rolls reversed must match rates as they are the same types of rolls.
Since Intermediate exits downwind, you have a couple choices. One you can turn back upwind then get setup and to be safe turn before you cross center to get into your landing sequence. The rule book is a little funny here and has never been updated to reflect this issue. It claims you only get certain free passes in front of the judges. One is the downwind after takeoff (trim pass). The other is a gear check after you exit the box. The problem is if you exit downwind, then fly upwind pass the judges you have to magically get back downwind without passing in front of the judges...Can't happen. So the answer is just turn before you cross center and a Nazi style judge can't do anything to you about it.
You only get one downwind trim pass, that is part of the Take Off Sequence. After you turn back upwind you are technically ready to enter the box. You need to call "entering the Box", "Box", "In the box" or something to announce you are in the maneuvering area. This is done at least 15m before the start of the first figure. And exited after the model has flown 15m after the last figure. The reason for this is all figures begin and end with level straight flight. Some have upright and some have inverted flight but all figures must have 15m of straight and level level before and after them.
15m is about 50ft. This is not very far when the models are traveling 60-90mph. At 60mph you travel 88ft in 1 second.
One more thing about TO and Landing sequences. The rule book are very clear that you do flat style turns. No 1/2 reverse cuban 8 to turnaround. There is only one turnaround that can be the pilots choice. That is the very first downwind turnaround to setup to enter the box, after Takeoff. The rules say your first upwind turn after you lift off can be a 90deg turn away from the flightline, then a choice. 90 deg turn to downwind or a 270 deg turn the other direction to come back downwind. Then as you get to the downwind marker you can do any turnaround or reversal of your choice. Most do a Humpty bump or 1/2 reverse cuban of sorts to get lined up and ready to enter the box.
And after you exit the box landing sequence rules are clear that you must do 180 deg turns to come in and land. So no aerobatics, just flat normal turns.
Side note on the 50ft entry into each figure: Last summer Jason and I went out and compared speeds of our models. He and I both averaged about 65mph on our models in the horizontals. He was flying the Electric and I was flying the YS 160. Uplines were about 80mph on the glow and the Electric was about 75mph on the upline. The downlines were equal at about 70mph for both models.
Max speed on the Electric was about 90-95 and max speed on the Glow setup was well over 130mph. This was all the same day with a hand held radar gun standing under the models at the 150m poles.
I got off topic a little but...enjoy the pattern contest. Its a bunch of fun with the guys. Some guys like to play Nazi on these nit picky rules in the book. The reality is the book says you need to do it that way. We may not agree with the way the book demands the sequences but that is what it requires. Just watch what the other guys do and follow suit. Its not something that is difficult and the purpose behind it was to speed up the contests. Many will argue both ways on whether it did or not. Reality is the rule book states the rule and to get your 10 on Takeoff or Landing you need to follow them. Don't sweat the specifics. There are a few little things that are procedural and sometimes these things come into play. Its rare especially to enforce them on the new guys....But sometimes you may end up on the back side of the rules.
My suggestion is to download the AMA comp regs for RC areobatics and they will tell you all the possible downgrades for each figure and what the you must do to get the score for landing and Takeoff.
It takes about 10mins of reading and you'll be all set.
Troy Newman
A couple of notes in Pattern the radii must all be equal within the figure. IMAC allows for the radii to be different on certain figures like Humpty's. Not the case in Pattern. All radii within the manuever must be equal. Now different manuevers can have different radii and roll rates but in pattern for a given manuever the radius of each corner, and roll rate of each roll in the figure must match.
There is one exception in FAI only. In FAi there are figures that include different roll elements. A 4/8pt roll-Slow roll opposite direction. The 4/8pt need not be the same roll rate as the slow roll. Or to an extreme a square loop with 1/2 rolls up and down and 2/4pt roll on the horizontal lines can have different roll rates as they are different types of rolls. But a 3/4 slow rolls reversed must match rates as they are the same types of rolls.
Since Intermediate exits downwind, you have a couple choices. One you can turn back upwind then get setup and to be safe turn before you cross center to get into your landing sequence. The rule book is a little funny here and has never been updated to reflect this issue. It claims you only get certain free passes in front of the judges. One is the downwind after takeoff (trim pass). The other is a gear check after you exit the box. The problem is if you exit downwind, then fly upwind pass the judges you have to magically get back downwind without passing in front of the judges...Can't happen. So the answer is just turn before you cross center and a Nazi style judge can't do anything to you about it.
You only get one downwind trim pass, that is part of the Take Off Sequence. After you turn back upwind you are technically ready to enter the box. You need to call "entering the Box", "Box", "In the box" or something to announce you are in the maneuvering area. This is done at least 15m before the start of the first figure. And exited after the model has flown 15m after the last figure. The reason for this is all figures begin and end with level straight flight. Some have upright and some have inverted flight but all figures must have 15m of straight and level level before and after them.
15m is about 50ft. This is not very far when the models are traveling 60-90mph. At 60mph you travel 88ft in 1 second.
One more thing about TO and Landing sequences. The rule book are very clear that you do flat style turns. No 1/2 reverse cuban 8 to turnaround. There is only one turnaround that can be the pilots choice. That is the very first downwind turnaround to setup to enter the box, after Takeoff. The rules say your first upwind turn after you lift off can be a 90deg turn away from the flightline, then a choice. 90 deg turn to downwind or a 270 deg turn the other direction to come back downwind. Then as you get to the downwind marker you can do any turnaround or reversal of your choice. Most do a Humpty bump or 1/2 reverse cuban of sorts to get lined up and ready to enter the box.
And after you exit the box landing sequence rules are clear that you must do 180 deg turns to come in and land. So no aerobatics, just flat normal turns.
Side note on the 50ft entry into each figure: Last summer Jason and I went out and compared speeds of our models. He and I both averaged about 65mph on our models in the horizontals. He was flying the Electric and I was flying the YS 160. Uplines were about 80mph on the glow and the Electric was about 75mph on the upline. The downlines were equal at about 70mph for both models.
Max speed on the Electric was about 90-95 and max speed on the Glow setup was well over 130mph. This was all the same day with a hand held radar gun standing under the models at the 150m poles.
I got off topic a little but...enjoy the pattern contest. Its a bunch of fun with the guys. Some guys like to play Nazi on these nit picky rules in the book. The reality is the book says you need to do it that way. We may not agree with the way the book demands the sequences but that is what it requires. Just watch what the other guys do and follow suit. Its not something that is difficult and the purpose behind it was to speed up the contests. Many will argue both ways on whether it did or not. Reality is the rule book states the rule and to get your 10 on Takeoff or Landing you need to follow them. Don't sweat the specifics. There are a few little things that are procedural and sometimes these things come into play. Its rare especially to enforce them on the new guys....But sometimes you may end up on the back side of the rules.
My suggestion is to download the AMA comp regs for RC areobatics and they will tell you all the possible downgrades for each figure and what the you must do to get the score for landing and Takeoff.
It takes about 10mins of reading and you'll be all set.
Troy Newman
09-18-2005 | 05:34 PM
#5
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From: Bridgewater,
NJ
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
Dave,
You're only allowed to fly Intemediate once or twice<G>. After that, jump into Advanced for a season if you plan on hitting the contest trail next year. Ed Alt did that and almost beat my butt this weekend in Masters. It is his second season in pattern.
You're only allowed to fly Intemediate once or twice<G>. After that, jump into Advanced for a season if you plan on hitting the contest trail next year. Ed Alt did that and almost beat my butt this weekend in Masters. It is his second season in pattern.
09-18-2005 | 07:10 PM
#6
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (5)
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
<VBG>
Well, Joe, we'll see how it goes. I just happened upon a great deal locally for a ready to go Hydeout/YS 140/JR Digitals- the whole setup and the plane is in great shape. I just dropped my receiver in, put in a fresh battery and fuel and went out and flew it today for the first time.
I figure I'll try to make it to the contest in Northern Virginia this weekend since it is right down the road. Hopefully I'll get a few more flights in this week and try not to embarrass myself too much...... after that- who knows?
To all who have offered some direction, thank you very much. It was all very helpful.
As a guy who has flown mostly giant scale/IMAC, here are some random thoughts after taking my first few flights on a pattern aircraft.
Very smooth. VERY quiet. Power to weight is WOW! Accelerating on a vertical upline is fun! Plane flies great. Faster than I am used to.
Plane is small. I think I may need to get my eyes checked again (seriously- the visual thing is going to take some adjustment- especially with the speed.) Compared to my 40% Extra 260, I am not yet sure it is any smoother or easier to fly (it was windy today). Required more wind correction than I am used to. For some reason I was expecting it to be less of an issue than a big IMAC plane. Easy to take off. Harder to land (doesn't slow down like my IMAC planes).
My goals? I have often thought that I may have moved up in class faster than I should have in IMAC and that I need to fly with a bit more discipline, I am hoping that I can go back and pick some of that up by flying the pattern planes. I like that it fits in both of our vehicles and I sure enjoy being able to load and unload in a few minutes.
Talk to you later. Hope to see you at a contest sometime.
Dave
Well, Joe, we'll see how it goes. I just happened upon a great deal locally for a ready to go Hydeout/YS 140/JR Digitals- the whole setup and the plane is in great shape. I just dropped my receiver in, put in a fresh battery and fuel and went out and flew it today for the first time.
I figure I'll try to make it to the contest in Northern Virginia this weekend since it is right down the road. Hopefully I'll get a few more flights in this week and try not to embarrass myself too much...... after that- who knows?
To all who have offered some direction, thank you very much. It was all very helpful.
As a guy who has flown mostly giant scale/IMAC, here are some random thoughts after taking my first few flights on a pattern aircraft.
Very smooth. VERY quiet. Power to weight is WOW! Accelerating on a vertical upline is fun! Plane flies great. Faster than I am used to.
Plane is small. I think I may need to get my eyes checked again (seriously- the visual thing is going to take some adjustment- especially with the speed.) Compared to my 40% Extra 260, I am not yet sure it is any smoother or easier to fly (it was windy today). Required more wind correction than I am used to. For some reason I was expecting it to be less of an issue than a big IMAC plane. Easy to take off. Harder to land (doesn't slow down like my IMAC planes).
My goals? I have often thought that I may have moved up in class faster than I should have in IMAC and that I need to fly with a bit more discipline, I am hoping that I can go back and pick some of that up by flying the pattern planes. I like that it fits in both of our vehicles and I sure enjoy being able to load and unload in a few minutes.
Talk to you later. Hope to see you at a contest sometime.
Dave
09-19-2005 | 09:28 AM
#8
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From: Bridgewater,
NJ
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
Dave,
Not surprised on your comment regarding the speed and seeing the plane. That was one of the adjustments that Ed had to make, too. The Hydeout is also a fast flyer compared to the current state of the art. What prop and fuel combo are you using?
Not surprised on your comment regarding the speed and seeing the plane. That was one of the adjustments that Ed had to make, too. The Hydeout is also a fast flyer compared to the current state of the art. What prop and fuel combo are you using?
09-19-2005 | 07:37 PM
#9
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (5)
RE: New to Pattern: Intermediate Questions
Joe,
It came with a 16X10. I flew it again today and switched to a 17X8. Much better for me- still fast but better. I can see why the pattern planes have become "wider". I like the way the current crop of patten planes look with this wider fuse and I would expect they would slow down better.
I am using Wildcat YS 20/20.
Dave
It came with a 16X10. I flew it again today and switched to a 17X8. Much better for me- still fast but better. I can see why the pattern planes have become "wider". I like the way the current crop of patten planes look with this wider fuse and I would expect they would slow down better.
I am using Wildcat YS 20/20.
Dave
