1: how good is the arf-patterns, compaired to building it from kit/scratch?
I am talking the 2x2meters flying f3a/arresti patterns.

2: How about arresti3, icepoint, or maybe the protec Onyx?
this is the three I am interested in. pros and cons here.

3:how do theese modells I mentioned compaire to verygood modells of appr. 90-110 size?

4ther modells?

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I've done both and here's my current opinion. I spent 6 months building a 2m pattern plane. . . If I would have started with my Icepoint instead, I would have been done building in two weeks and could have used the balance of the time - 5 months, 2 weeks - practicing.
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Yep all you need is a $400 arf of the week and you're all set!!!

/sarcasm

That's not an easy question to answer. Do you NEED a Ferrari, or will a 73 Chevy Nova do just fine?

You do get what you pay for, either in $$ or in work. My answer would be: they don't compare. At all. Not even the very best, unless you're talking about a $3000 Oxai. And that is something entirely different.

Longevity comes into play at some point, as well as goals.

It really just depends on what you want. I'm probably not the one to answer this question, so I digress....

-Mike

Dang, y'all are slow tonight [8D]

-M

HMMM

I know one Advanced pilot thet got beat by a $ 400.00 arf and he was flying a high $$$$$$$$$ plane...

this past weekend at Knoxville,TN.

scott anderson

Yep.

If you are starting out in pattern, ARFs are ok, and will get you in the air faster for more practice. However, what is available changes rapidly. The Arresti 3 is not available, nor is the Icepoint. The Evolution replaced the Icepoint, but it isn't up on the website yet.

Wait a few months and the Focus series should be available again from a revitalised Piedmont..

You didn't mention the OTOP or Impact. An Impact won Masters this year at the Nats, and another finished 3rd in FAI. Make sure you do all of the aft fuselage mods in the instructions, and you will be ok.

Jon Lowe

/digression

Heh.

I would say all kidding aside, Jon is right. The only reason to build a scratch built plane when you're beginning is because you want to. Later on, in some cases it's the only way to get the plane you want at a reasonable price. If you find yourself getting picky, you may discover that the plane you want doesn't exist, and therefore you have to design it and build it yourself. There has been a swing of the scales back in that direction lately, and that's good for everybody.

As ARFs go, in my opinion there's no such thing as a good ARF. There are ok ARFs and crappy ARFs. I have seen some quality airframes marketed as ARFs that were impressive, but so were the price tags, and I'd be hesitant to call them an ARF. In the price range of the Arresti, Icepoint etc, they are ARFs just like any other ARF. They're not quite cutting edge, and they have ARF issues. Add to that they are here today and gone tomorrow, so there is no support. That doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place.

When you're first starting out, you need practice, not a cutting edge plane. If you ever feel your plane holding you back from scoring better, you'll know it. You won't suspect it, you'll know it for certain. Generally at that point you're in rare company and a few years past the beginner's stage. Longevity is much more of an issue than the plane itself.

Whatever gets you in the air and flying pattern, that's what you need. But there's nothing wrong with showing up at your first contest well practiced on a $4000 Pinnacle either!

-Mike

I think one of the best options for new pattern pilots is to purchased a second hand pattern plane from a successful pattern pilot. Not only do you usually get a really good deal vs. what you'd pay retail, you also get a plane that's well trimmed out, and that's something that just can't be overstated. I'm in my fourth year of flying pattern and in retrospect I realize now that I flew with a poorly trimmed plane for two years and didn't even know it. Even now I'm well aware that my knowledge of trimming isn't at the level of the guys that have been doing this for a long time and having successful results.

Don't sweat the fact that the plane is a couple of years old, it normally served the owner well and you can be sure it will be more than capable to carry you for two or three years, easy.

One other thing to consider. It's easy to get sticker shock when seeing someone wanting $1500 or more for a used 2M plane that's fully decked out. What you many not realize is when you buy that $400 to $600 2M ARF and put the motor, motor mount, pipe, good servos, "good" hardware, etc. on it you'll probably pass the $1500 mark and still have a cheap so-so ARF. Then you'll soon feel you need an upgrade and you'll spend the money again. But with a good 2nd hand "real" pattern plane you can be confident the plane can fly WAY beyond your abilities for at least two to three years.

BTW, now that NATS is over now to the end of the year is a GREAT time to be in market for a used plane. And with so many people making the jump to electric this year is probably better than ever before!

Two cents from someone that's been down the road you're embarking on.

Keith B.

but didnt the arresti3 win some big tourney in the us?I guess that it cant be that bad then..
But I see the point of buying a used as you say keithB... maybe that is just the thing to do...

argghh[:@] the arresti, poor quality crap.... i found many cracks in the plane after a dingo-run, the fuse was twisted, causing a "rolling effect"

Just my twopennorth, but the person on the sticks makes a big difference to how a particular model appears to perform.
For instance, the Impact is very capable in the hands of a really top pilot, but it has flying issues (not to mention structural ones!), when flown by more average Joes.

but, then at all... do a average joe like me actually need a 2m plane, or am I just as good whit a 90size plane?
I mean will a 2m plane because of its size and stability it provide, make me a better pilot than a 90 size?

2M bird is the only way to go. Given you could use the YS or OS motors, and that the servo requirements in our price range are the same given .90 sized or 2M, there is really no price savings. Plus, bigger flies better every time. One or our F3A guys who flies really, really well needed to fly a .90 sized plane for a while when he was reparing his Smaragd. There was no way he could compete against the same competitors flying their typical planes. The Focus pure and simple offeres the best, proven performance for the money. If a good used plane is not available locally as mentioned before, the Focus, YS160,YS140Sport, OS160, OS140RX, and digital servos, would give you top performance with a variety of cost options. If you are going to fly FAI, the YS160 or OS160 are the only two motor options that have the power to fly through any weather condition (IMHO).

Thanks,
Jim W.
Team Futaba,
YS Performance.

As I said previously, the Arresti 3 is no longer available. I had two, still have one as a backup. I know Bob Pasterello won at least one masters class contest in AMA with one. Quality varied all over the landscape. Several people got twisted fuselages. Mine were staright, but I've seen one that was really bad. One one of my wing panels had to be replaced due to the wing tube not being straight in it. Covering was some sort of cheap chinacote that keeps trying to peel off. Lost covering on both airplanes on first flights, even after sealing edges, and using CA in strategic locations. Also had to use a carbon fiber landing gear and wing tube to meet weight, which defeated some of the apparent cheapness of the airframe. All that being said, mine flew well, and flying characteristics were identical. Certainly adequate for sportsman or intermediate, if you can get a straight one. landing gear area was weak, and should be glassed from the get go, which adds more weight. Mine were right at 11 lbs.

Be careful if you go after a used Focus or Focus II at this point. Many of these airframe have a ton of flights on them at this point, and may need major rebuilds. Pattern flyers fly more than anyone else, and airframes can and do wear out, even without crash or hard landing damage. Inspect very closely any Focus before buying. I know two guys that have them, and they both said their airframes are very tired. Again, a reborn Piedmont is going to offer new ones again in the near future.

I concur that a .90 sized airplane is not a whole lot cheaper than a 2 meter bird, and don't fly as well. Go for it!

Jon Lowe

With an AFR or a kit build, it will always come down to how well the model is ASSEMBLED and TRIMED. Some of the ARF'S I have flown have almost taken as long as it would take to assemble a good quality kit. You need to do your home work with an ARF using forums like this to draw on the experience of others to overcome design deffects etc so they will last a long time and you get value for money? time.

Nothing wrong with an inexpensive ARF to get you into the precision aerobatics game....After all....you really have no idea what you are getting into ( unless of course you've been there before)...I started in competition this year, and agonized over what to build/buy because I wanted to have something that's " competitive" .
I ended up getting an inexpensive model (ARF 90 size)....powered it well, spent time trimming it out...guess what??? it's capable of more than I require for the next year or two...possibly three...also, the pilot has a lot to do with how the model flies...now that I know what's required, and surprisingly,I like the competition part too, I have ordered
a " spare" model, and will build it exactly the same as the first. If I happen to crash, it isn't costly, and I have a spare to fall back on...all for less than the price on a " good " 2M ship, which I don't need in order to be " competitive"...I do need air time though, and I think lots of airtime on a reasonably good well trimmed out plane will make me much better than lots of money spent on an airframe that I can't take advantage of yet.....we don't all NEED to drive a Rolls Royce to get to work in the morning. yes I see myself down the road getting into a 2M ship, but my model definitely does NOT limit me , and I am getting better with each " round" flown.
Just my opinion of course, but it's workin for me

in your opinion, GENESIS or OTOP for F3A

The Shinden, in my opinion is the best value arf out ther right now in my opinion. Of course, with a bigger budget, you can also get the Astral XX. Both are available from BVM models.

The Integral looks pretty good too, assuming you can get one.....

But that Shinden is gorgeous!

A lot has changed since this first post. I wouldn't have given 2 cents for anything out there when I posted my original message in this thread. Now, there are 2 planes available that really make a viable option for the mid-budget ARF.

But I still like my flying lumber yards, that won't change

-Mike

I think it just as much depends on what you are flying today. I found the step from a 40-size plane to a 90-size quite big. After one year of flying the 90-size, the step to a 2meter pattern plane was easy.

I went thru the same question. What to do for the next step. I don't have time to build a scratch plane, and have yet to learn a lot, so I might as well spent that time flying and practising, iso building. Also, I learn a lot flying, looking at other planes and reading for instance this forum. I could never have build a "good" 2meter pattern sofar, and I still have a lot to learn.

Post #9 (Keith) IMHO is right on the money. I bought at the end of the season here a 2meter pattern plane from one of the top-5 flyers in competition. He was also switching to electric, and needed money, so he sold his spare plane. His advice on setting up the plane was worth as much as the plane itself. The plane is hardly used (yet ), only needed a receiver, and I paid 750 €. This is MUCH cheaper then any ARF with all hardware, and a better plane I can build for the next 5 years!