Slowing pattern plane
08-18-2006 | 11:30 AM
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From: St. Andrews West,
ON, CANADA
Slowing pattern plane
I have a GP Tracer 40, 46fx, 11X4 prop. Can anyone suggest a way to slow it down or do I have to program in airbrakes?
Engine trouble aside, I have had to deadstick land it several times now. After a long approch the plane still balloons up or climbs when I go to flare it. I really don't want to try a steep aoa until I get more accustom to the plane and fix a nasty left wing tip stall problem.
Next I'll be getting a 60 size pattern plane and would rather destroy a cheap 40 size learning the basics. Oh, as to my flying experience been doing it since 1988
Engine trouble aside, I have had to deadstick land it several times now. After a long approch the plane still balloons up or climbs when I go to flare it. I really don't want to try a steep aoa until I get more accustom to the plane and fix a nasty left wing tip stall problem.
Next I'll be getting a 60 size pattern plane and would rather destroy a cheap 40 size learning the basics. Oh, as to my flying experience been doing it since 1988
08-18-2006 | 11:50 AM
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From: st. charles,
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
ORIGINAL: ********Knight
I have a GP Tracer 40, 46fx, 11X4 prop. Can anyone suggest a way to slow it down or do I have to program in airbrakes?
Engine trouble aside, I have had to deadstick land it several times now. After a long approch the plane still balloons up or climbs when I go to flare it. I really don't want to try a steep aoa until I get more accustom to the plane and fix a nasty left wing tip stall problem.
Next I'll be getting a 60 size pattern plane and would rather destroy a cheap 40 size learning the basics. Oh, as to my flying experience been doing it since 1988
I have a GP Tracer 40, 46fx, 11X4 prop. Can anyone suggest a way to slow it down or do I have to program in airbrakes?
Engine trouble aside, I have had to deadstick land it several times now. After a long approch the plane still balloons up or climbs when I go to flare it. I really don't want to try a steep aoa until I get more accustom to the plane and fix a nasty left wing tip stall problem.
Next I'll be getting a 60 size pattern plane and would rather destroy a cheap 40 size learning the basics. Oh, as to my flying experience been doing it since 1988
Good luck
08-18-2006 | 11:52 AM
#3
RE: Slowing pattern plane
Don't waste your time learning bad habits---just go to a 90 sized ship at least, build it light and straight, and learn to land it at a highish aoa. Tip stalls just shouldn't happen with a decent pattern plane.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
08-18-2006 | 01:21 PM
#4
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
I fly a .60 sized plane and I was having the same problem. I thought I had tried everything, I was using flaperons, I killed the engine, it just kept landing hot. Then an old buddy Bryan Hebert recommended spoilers instead of flaperons, just reverse them. I did. The next flight the plane came in nice and smooth at a perfect AOA, and I would be surprised if it was going 10 MPH when it touched down. I've even had to land it gear-up before due to a malfunction... it was going so slow it caused no damage whatsoever, I even had a guy holler from the pits that if he knew the plane would fly that slow he would have gone out there and cought it for me... And ignore the person who thinks you need to just jump into a .90-sized plane right away, a .40 or .60 plane will get you through Intermediate.
08-18-2006 | 03:41 PM
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
Then an old buddy Bryan Hebert recommended spoilers instead of flaperons, just reverse them.
Then an old buddy Bryan Hebert recommended spoilers instead of flaperons, just reverse them.
I may be a bit slow.. but please tell exactly what you mean....I didnt get it...
08-18-2006 | 07:21 PM
#7
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
Sounds like he is talking about adding a spoileron mix. You flip a switch and the ailerons both deflect upwards a few degrees to kill some of the lift and also continue to function normally as ailerons. This can also be mixed with the elevator so that when you input up elevator the ailerons also come up at whatever proportion that you set. I would not advise it though, its a real lift killer especially when the plane slows way down.
Its not really going to slow the plane down that much IMHO, but it will descend a lot faster as wing lift is decreased.
All of the symptoms you mention (ballooning, tipstalling) point to a tailheavy plane. Might try moving the CG forward a little bit. A larger prop with a lower pitch may slow you down a bit too. If you are flying too fast in general, this should help that as well.
Just some thoughts.
Its not really going to slow the plane down that much IMHO, but it will descend a lot faster as wing lift is decreased.
All of the symptoms you mention (ballooning, tipstalling) point to a tailheavy plane. Might try moving the CG forward a little bit. A larger prop with a lower pitch may slow you down a bit too. If you are flying too fast in general, this should help that as well.
Just some thoughts.
08-18-2006 | 09:21 PM
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From: St. Andrews West,
ON, CANADA
RE: Slowing pattern plane
jquid If I can keep the engine running I'll give that a shot lol and point of note, it an't no stinking B(ARF) it's a kit 
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
08-18-2006 | 09:48 PM
#9
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Slowing pattern plane
Talked with a buddy today about his Tracer. He also mentioned the nasty tip stalls on his. I have a pattern plane that likes to land hot too. Here is what I do- bring it around on final but stay high. Back off of the throttle and keep the nose up until it wants to settle into a nice, but sort of steep approach. Let it descend in that groove until time to flare gently. See if it works for you but be careful of the tip stall speed range.
08-20-2006 | 04:48 PM
#10
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
The guy who said I was referring to "spoilerons" was exactly correct in the naming of the control function, but unlike him, I guarantee it will slow the plane down. Mixing in elevator is just for people who don't feel like holding a lot of up elevator once they are engaged. A "brief" explanation about why it slows the plane down: the angle of attack is defined as the angle between the airstream and the line drawn between the leading and trailing edge of the wing. When spoilers are engaged it severely reduces the angle of attack, forcing the nose of the aiplane to be raised in order to maintain an angle of attack that will support straight and level flight. This nose-high attitude causes more of the bottom of the lifting surfaces to be exposed to the airstream, thus increasing drag (and reducing airspeed). One of the difficulties when first using the spoilers is getting used to the plane flying that slow with such a pronounced nose-high attitude. Notice here, I did not say high angle of attack, because the angle of attack has not changed that much, if at all. Think of it like this... have you ever seen a military jet coming in for a landing? They do that because the airframe of the plane becomes it's own built-in air brake. You can force the same out of any plane you have that is designed to cut through the air if you use spoilers.
08-20-2006 | 05:04 PM
#11
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
Oh, one more thing. I do not recommend spoilers because I got lucky guessing that they would work... my plane had the same characteristics he was describing and I was trying to use flaps to cure it. Then a guy I used to fly with, Bryan Hebert (yes, designer of the Storm and Patriot), recommended reversing them to spoilers. Well, Bryan being who he was, and with all the area knowledge that has been derived from Nat Penton (Voodoo man himself whom I consulted yesterday on prop selection for my plane), I tried it... it worked wonders and I haven't looked back since. Oh, and by the way, spoilers will not increase your rate of decent provided you manage the throttle and elevator correctly. However, by definition the purpose of flaps is to provide a steeper decent without an increase in airspeed, they give you a higher angle of attack without the larger amount of the airframe exposed to the airstream, and they increase lift in an airplane that already has too much (if your plane is already flying too fast, adding flaps will only make it float even more). Unlike the previous posts, these are not humble opinions, they are based on facts taken straight from full-scale aviation and testing both ways on my airplanes that have experience similar problems. I have never tried the propeller change since I do not want to reduce the pitch of the prop that I use. My recommendation would be if you are pleased with the performance you're getting in all other stages of flight, why change to a lower pitch propeller and reduce it's pulling power for vertical maneuvers? OK, that last bit was IMHO...
08-20-2006 | 08:57 PM
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From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
RE: Slowing pattern plane
I was using spoilerons a while back, it's a good way of washing off that height
In fact, I might go and do that to my staudacher that has to come in hot, but jeez it looks soo tough when it does.
In fact, I might go and do that to my staudacher that has to come in hot, but jeez it looks soo tough when it does.
08-20-2006 | 11:05 PM
#13
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
Oh, one more thing. I do not recommend spoilers because I got lucky guessing that they would work... my plane had the same characteristics he was describing and I was trying to use flaps to cure it. Then a guy I used to fly with, Bryan Hebert (yes, designer of the Storm and Patriot), recommended reversing them to spoilers. Well, Bryan being who he was, and with all the area knowledge that has been derived from Nat Penton (Voodoo man himself whom I consulted yesterday on prop selection for my plane), I tried it... it worked wonders and I haven't looked back since. Oh, and by the way, spoilers will not increase your rate of decent provided you manage the throttle and elevator correctly. However, by definition the purpose of flaps is to provide a steeper decent without an increase in airspeed, they give you a higher angle of attack without the larger amount of the airframe exposed to the airstream, and they increase lift in an airplane that already has too much (if your plane is already flying too fast, adding flaps will only make it float even more). Unlike the previous posts, these are not humble opinions, they are based on facts taken straight from full-scale aviation and testing both ways on my airplanes that have experience similar problems. I have never tried the propeller change since I do not want to reduce the pitch of the prop that I use. My recommendation would be if you are pleased with the performance you're getting in all other stages of flight, why change to a lower pitch propeller and reduce it's pulling power for vertical maneuvers? OK, that last bit was IMHO...
Oh, one more thing. I do not recommend spoilers because I got lucky guessing that they would work... my plane had the same characteristics he was describing and I was trying to use flaps to cure it. Then a guy I used to fly with, Bryan Hebert (yes, designer of the Storm and Patriot), recommended reversing them to spoilers. Well, Bryan being who he was, and with all the area knowledge that has been derived from Nat Penton (Voodoo man himself whom I consulted yesterday on prop selection for my plane), I tried it... it worked wonders and I haven't looked back since. Oh, and by the way, spoilers will not increase your rate of decent provided you manage the throttle and elevator correctly. However, by definition the purpose of flaps is to provide a steeper decent without an increase in airspeed, they give you a higher angle of attack without the larger amount of the airframe exposed to the airstream, and they increase lift in an airplane that already has too much (if your plane is already flying too fast, adding flaps will only make it float even more). Unlike the previous posts, these are not humble opinions, they are based on facts taken straight from full-scale aviation and testing both ways on my airplanes that have experience similar problems. I have never tried the propeller change since I do not want to reduce the pitch of the prop that I use. My recommendation would be if you are pleased with the performance you're getting in all other stages of flight, why change to a lower pitch propeller and reduce it's pulling power for vertical maneuvers? OK, that last bit was IMHO...
My comments were actually not based on opinion either although I was trying to be considerate with my comment. And I too can throw Nat and Bryans names around for the nickel its worth as they are both friends of mine as well and very knowledgeable I might add. I have spent a lot of time at contests ingesting both of their ideas, they are some sharp cookies.
Now, I have flown 3D and pattern planes with spoilers and they decrease lift plain and simple. The plane DOES sink faster because of the reduced lift a LOT of reduced lift depending on the amount of reflex. Also, if you get into the elevator with spoilers on too much, and you will snap the plane right into the ground. Spoilers are a nice tool but you better know what you are doing when you play with them. You overdo it and you are going to crash. That is fact, not opinion. Granted descent rate can be managed with throttle but when you are trying to SLOW THE PLANE DOWN why would you want to increase the throttle, you will be increasing forward speed again somewhat.
Bottom line, I have never seen a modern pattern plane that NEEDED spoilers to land. If you correctly make your approach and you have your engine setup for a good solid low idle you just flat dont need them.
Now, I do not want this to turn into a spitting contest so play nice from here on out. We are here to help each other, not measure the length of our... propellers. There is nothing more offensive than trying to make yourself look more credible by trying to discredit someone else. [:'(] Just state your fact or opinion and let the original poster come to their own conclusion.
08-21-2006 | 10:51 AM
#15
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RE: Slowing pattern plane
OK, I agree to no more spitting contest. Yes, you are correct with everything you said in your last post. I have never seen the snap problem with spoilers though, that may be a problem I haven't run across because my plane isn't exactly cutting adge. A good slow idle on a 4-stroke will indeed slow the airplane down plenty, but with 2-strokes sometimes even a slow idle isn't enough, and when reducing prop pitch isn't an option, well, that's when I came across the spoilers. I didn't really mean to sound as harsh as I came off in the past couple posts, I was tired, cranky, and dreading going to work in the morning, so apologize for that. I have no doubt the original poster has plenty enough information to make an educated decision as to what he wants to try first. I yield to the much bigger "propeller" your 4-stroke can turn... Any solution to this problem is a trade-off and pilot experience and ability should really be the determining factor.
08-21-2006 | 11:37 AM
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From: st. charles,
IL
RE: Slowing pattern plane
ORIGINAL: ********Knight
jquid If I can keep the engine running I'll give that a shot lol and point of note, it an't no stinking B(ARF) it's a kit
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
Hey,
Sorry bout the ARF, not sure what plane I was thinking of. Anyhows. Spoilers will decrease lift, as they spoil the air movement over the wing, and will reduce your lift. I learned on sailplanes, and a Sagitta 600. When landing you deploy the spoilers to essentially stop your aircraft and spot land. Spoilers on a pattern I would argue are the opposite of what you want. As you slow down your 5 lb aircraft, it is not flying fast enough to maintain the lift needed to keep it flying. Since you are using an 11x4 prop, idle will do the same thing, not enough forward movement of the plane (4" with this prop), to sustain lift. Spoilers will drop it out of the sky.
Flaps increase the lift at a higher AOA, allowing you to fly slower, yet keep the wing flying, and not stalling. I would recommend flaperons, and increase your prop pitch and reduce diameter. Maybe go 10x6 or 10x7. You will also need to program in some up elevator, as the plane will want to nose over. I have this setup on a Tower Uproar 40, and I can fly it so slow it can almost hover in a mild headwind. Try the setup a few mistakes high, as the correct ratio of flaps to elevator mix will vary the flight characteristics of what you are looking for.
So when landing, cut back to like 1/3 throttle on your downwind leg, deploy flaps after a bit as your airspeed decreases. Bring your nose up a bit to prepare for landing. If you had a taildrager setup, it would be about the same angle as it is sitting on the ground. Now you should be flying at the correct AOA and slower. Now reduce the throttle to bring her down on a "3 Point" landing.
Happy landings, and let us know what you do.
jquid If I can keep the engine running I'll give that a shot lol and point of note, it an't no stinking B(ARF) it's a kit
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
Hey,
Sorry bout the ARF, not sure what plane I was thinking of. Anyhows. Spoilers will decrease lift, as they spoil the air movement over the wing, and will reduce your lift. I learned on sailplanes, and a Sagitta 600. When landing you deploy the spoilers to essentially stop your aircraft and spot land. Spoilers on a pattern I would argue are the opposite of what you want. As you slow down your 5 lb aircraft, it is not flying fast enough to maintain the lift needed to keep it flying. Since you are using an 11x4 prop, idle will do the same thing, not enough forward movement of the plane (4" with this prop), to sustain lift. Spoilers will drop it out of the sky.
Flaps increase the lift at a higher AOA, allowing you to fly slower, yet keep the wing flying, and not stalling. I would recommend flaperons, and increase your prop pitch and reduce diameter. Maybe go 10x6 or 10x7. You will also need to program in some up elevator, as the plane will want to nose over. I have this setup on a Tower Uproar 40, and I can fly it so slow it can almost hover in a mild headwind. Try the setup a few mistakes high, as the correct ratio of flaps to elevator mix will vary the flight characteristics of what you are looking for.
So when landing, cut back to like 1/3 throttle on your downwind leg, deploy flaps after a bit as your airspeed decreases. Bring your nose up a bit to prepare for landing. If you had a taildrager setup, it would be about the same angle as it is sitting on the ground. Now you should be flying at the correct AOA and slower. Now reduce the throttle to bring her down on a "3 Point" landing.
Happy landings, and let us know what you do.
08-21-2006 | 11:39 AM
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From: st. charles,
IL
RE: Slowing pattern plane
ORIGINAL: ********Knight
jquid If I can keep the engine running I'll give that a shot lol and point of note, it an't no stinking B(ARF) it's a kit
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
Hey,
Sorry bout the ARF, not sure what plane I was thinking of. Anyhows. Spoilers will decrease lift, as they spoil the air movement over the wing, and will reduce your lift. I learned on sailplanes, and a Sagitta 600. When landing you deploy the spoilers to essentially stop your aircraft and spot land. Spoilers on a pattern I would argue are the opposite of what you want. As you slow down your 5 lb aircraft, it is not flying fast enough to maintain the lift needed to keep it flying. Since you are using an 11x4 prop, idle will do the same thing, not enough forward movement of the plane (4" with this prop), to sustain lift. Spoilers will drop it out of the sky.
Flaps increase the lift at a higher AOA, allowing you to fly slower, yet keep the wing flying, and not stalling. I would recommend flaperons, and increase your prop pitch and reduce diameter. Maybe go 10x6 or 10x7. You will also need to program in some up elevator, as the plane will want to nose over. I have this setup on a Tower Uproar 40, and I can fly it so slow it can almost hover in a mild headwind. Try the setup a few mistakes high, as the correct ratio of flaps to elevator mix will vary the flight characteristics of what you are looking for.
So when landing, cut back to like 1/3 throttle on your downwind leg, deploy flaps after a bit as your airspeed decreases. Bring your nose up a bit to prepare for landing. If you had a taildrager setup, it would be about the same angle as it is sitting on the ground. Now you should be flying at the correct AOA and slower. Now reduce the throttle to bring her down on a "3 Point" landing.
Happy landings, and let us know what you do.
jquid If I can keep the engine running I'll give that a shot lol and point of note, it an't no stinking B(ARF) it's a kit
I considered a larger plane but currently I don't have a means to transport one where the chances of damage are minimal. Most damage to my planes happens in transport. Plus I lack the necessary $$$$ to buy one and all the pieces to go with it.
I also considered spoilerons but I want to slow the plane down not kill its lift. I think, I might be better off programming flaperons with elevator mixed in but I will be trying the method jquid mentioned before I do that. The plane is nose heavy, balanced at the reconmended place on the plans. It has a respectable decent but its forward momentum is to much to do a proper landing.
Hey,
Sorry bout the ARF, not sure what plane I was thinking of. Anyhows. Spoilers will decrease lift, as they spoil the air movement over the wing, and will reduce your lift. I learned on sailplanes, and a Sagitta 600. When landing you deploy the spoilers to essentially stop your aircraft and spot land. Spoilers on a pattern I would argue are the opposite of what you want. As you slow down your 5 lb aircraft, it is not flying fast enough to maintain the lift needed to keep it flying. Since you are using an 11x4 prop, idle will do the same thing, not enough forward movement of the plane (4" with this prop), to sustain lift. Spoilers will drop it out of the sky.
Flaps increase the lift at a higher AOA, allowing you to fly slower, yet keep the wing flying, and not stalling. I would recommend flaperons, and increase your prop pitch and reduce diameter. Maybe go 10x6 or 10x7. You will also need to program in some up elevator, as the plane will want to nose over. I have this setup on a Tower Uproar 40, and I can fly it so slow it can almost hover in a mild headwind. Try the setup a few mistakes high, as the correct ratio of flaps to elevator mix will vary the flight characteristics of what you are looking for.
So when landing, cut back to like 1/3 throttle on your downwind leg, deploy flaps after a bit as your airspeed decreases. Bring your nose up a bit to prepare for landing. If you had a taildrager setup, it would be about the same angle as it is sitting on the ground. Now you should be flying at the correct AOA and slower. Now reduce the throttle to bring her down on a "3 Point" landing.
Happy landings, and let us know what you do.
08-29-2006 | 10:09 PM
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From: St. Andrews West,
ON, CANADA
RE: Slowing pattern plane
Finally got out tonight to experiment with landings. By the time I got into the air I only had enough time to make a couple attempts before it got to dark 
.
Things I did, Rebalanced to the rear most recommended mark on the plans, I believe this made it tail heavy elevator was very touchy, will move forward about 1/16". Balanced it wing tip to wing tip then made the right side heavier, also checked for a warp, the plane still tip stalls to the left side. Changed the engine for another 46FX (other one is old and worn) and lowered the tank so the top is in line with the center of the carburetor, better low speed running now. The landings I did make were long and shallow, moving the cg back allowed me to use less elevator to keep the nose up, they were still a bit fast but not so much that a little control input would cause drastic heading changes. I trim the plane to fly level at half throttle. I tried the suggested 10x6 propeller, didn't like the preformance it gave, switch it to a 11x5 but I think I'll stick with a 11x4. Don't have ground clearance for a 12". And finally I switched the rudder servo to a higher torque because the plane would straighten out of a flat turn at half throttle.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate Saturday (and no one bothers me for assistance, it killed most the evening) so I can try out the other suggested landing procedures.
. Things I did, Rebalanced to the rear most recommended mark on the plans, I believe this made it tail heavy elevator was very touchy, will move forward about 1/16". Balanced it wing tip to wing tip then made the right side heavier, also checked for a warp, the plane still tip stalls to the left side. Changed the engine for another 46FX (other one is old and worn) and lowered the tank so the top is in line with the center of the carburetor, better low speed running now. The landings I did make were long and shallow, moving the cg back allowed me to use less elevator to keep the nose up, they were still a bit fast but not so much that a little control input would cause drastic heading changes. I trim the plane to fly level at half throttle. I tried the suggested 10x6 propeller, didn't like the preformance it gave, switch it to a 11x5 but I think I'll stick with a 11x4. Don't have ground clearance for a 12". And finally I switched the rudder servo to a higher torque because the plane would straighten out of a flat turn at half throttle.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate Saturday (and no one bothers me for assistance, it killed most the evening) so I can try out the other suggested landing procedures.
08-30-2006 | 05:53 AM
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From: Halifax,
NS, CANADA
RE: Slowing pattern plane
Spoilers are the ticket. I tried them on my Venus 11 and they worked wonders. Then I tried them on my Typhoon pattern ship and they work also although not quite as well. I have them programed on a landing switch with a bit of elevator compensation. Up elev. on the Venus - down elev. on the Typhoon ( go figure ). Flaps were no good but the spoilers are great. They work so well that I'm going to reverse my flaps on my 1/5 P - 51 when I get it flying again.
08-30-2006 | 07:57 AM
#20
RE: Slowing pattern plane
Recently got into patten again but have been flying for too many years to remember, IMHO spoilers are the thing that has helped me land more than any other advise with a hot ship, I fly from a small grass patch and need a steep aprouch, the up ailerons both sides I have on a side slider on my Zap this enables me to adjust the rate of decent and just use the corresponding amount of elevator on the stick, with up ailerons you are also adding washout therefore reducing the snap tendancy also.
Just my two penny worth.
Mike
Just my two penny worth.
Mike
