I think Bryan's is flying around 10.25 - 10.50 lbs, maybe slightly more... I seem to remember hearing that somewhere, but I hear lots of things. I'm not sure what Bryan's reasons are behind the wing length, but I can assure you this airplane was designed for F3A competition, and since, from what I understand FAI changes sequences on a different schedule than the AMA, then sequence changes probably had nothing to do with it. Bryan will tell anyone who asks that his theory behind airplane design is to have a final product that requires no mixing to fly and has no bad tendencies. After flying his last weekend, I can tell you he accompished that. He doesn't believe in using mixes on his airplanes, and they are designed to do exactly what they are told to do... nothing more. Like Jon (jetpilot) said earlier, that makes it all come down to the man behind the sticks. This is without a doubt an excellent-flying airplane and as long as they are properly trimmed, they fly great. Bryan finally got his back to that point last weekend for the first time since he crashed it... and I must say you can see it when it flies. It locks in on whatever line you point it on (downlines are unbelievably straight down). Rudder is extremely responsive. Power is ample with a 160DZ, and you can fly it so slowly that it makes the F3A sequence look more like ballet or figure skating than precision aerobatics. Protectedpilot was around during the design and construction of the original Shinden, so perhaps you might be able to direct some more specific questions his way and he might be able to answer them better than I can. I can only speak from my observations since Bryan rebuilt the fuselage after the Shinden bought the farm (battery failure, not airframe) on one of its early flights. I can also say that Bryan's older designs are still kicking butt. Last weekend I had the pleasure of witnessing the flight of protectedpilot's Patriot 3D, and it definitely lived up to what I have come to expect from a Bryan Hebert design, both planes are truly the perfect merger of form and function.

In all fairness, the weight question is a good one. None of us have actually had the composite Shinden in our hands, and Bryan's version is completely built up. We are told to expect it in the 10 1/2 pound range, but cannot attest to first hand knowledge. And a completely scratch built airframe is going to be totally different. Wooden models are usually more difficult to get under weight, as composites have more strength per ounce of material as a rule. I think we can trust the manufacturer, based upon their prior performances, and we all know of Bob Violette's company. I spend time in Bryan's shop often, but he does not have time to help me build a Shinden... so I'm going to plop my money right on down to get mine. I do trust Xtreme Composites, and BVM, and I really want this airplane. I probably could beg Bryan enough to get him to build me one, but as his friend, I won't. This is a bigger issue than the weight... I have no worries about that. This plane will only require a radio installation, no building, and they have already put one in the air at a show in Japan.

If money were no object, this one would still be my first choice, and I can truthfully say that I've seen them all, from Christophe on down, first hand. Jason or Chip could fly two paint sticks rubber banded together; it's the rest of us that really need a great airframe. That's why I'm always looking for the best equipment I can afford. This time, the best isn't simply the most expensive. Go figure. What I do know is that Bryan isn't getting any money from the planes, nada, none, zero.

One other thing, Jon, I'll be flying the Patriot 3D at least for the first half of the year, even when my Shinden is ready. There still remains the issue of the nut on the sticks........... bring it!

Brian (VBG)

A shame to hear Bryan is not in on the cut per plane sold....hope he got something for the design. I must say though, money aside, it's nice to see an american boy's name attached to an airframe of this caliber. I have met and talked with Bryan many times, and it has been a pleasure to see this recognition. I think the US is now in the game....good designs, and good availability....anything from a wood roach, to a Symphony type kit, rcenterprises, (maybe Peidmont too?), now to also include an american designed composite type arf called the Shinden.

....I gotta get back to work on my stuff now....

Brian, hope to see out on the dist. 6 tour on 07'

-mark

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Never mind

(just teasing)

-Mike

Bryan said he doesn't look to make money off his designs, he just wants good airplanes out there. Hey, Brian, did you notice my little quote down there in my signature? I was gonna put "Dingo Bites," but that's your line...

Yeah, yeah, Mike, I know YOU are one of the chosen few that can build light!! BUT, the vast majority don't have the skills of you or an Hebert, and as a generic statement, was the truth. And prototypes are usually overbuilt a tad. Building the second or third is when you refine things. Then there's the fact that a roach just feels different in the air, at least it does to me. My Patriot was composite, this 3D is wood, the Storm was wood. My first scratch built was a brick. We gave it a Viking funeral at a contest in Texarkana! A good looking brick, but a brick. My main point was that a completely built composite-paint in the mold-install radio and fly model would certainly make weight.

You did good this year, BTW.....

Brian

Thanks Brian! yeah I did have a great year that's for sure.

You must have read my other post...LOL

The truth is I was making generic statements there, I did NOT have this particular thread directly in mind. But since it was fresh, I mentioned a few things. Just stuff I've learned and opinions I've formed, and as I said there, they could be wrong and are subject to change at any time....like me using YS engines....whoda thunk it? Now I'm all YS and loving it. 6 months ago, no way. 6 months from now, who knows?

Well, y'all are spreading it a little thick there But no thicker than anyone else, including me at times. So I was just poking fun. A new plane is the most euphoric feeling us pattern guys can have, especially if the plane feels good.

You more than most people should know what high regard I hold Bryan in. And you for that matter. Bryan was my inspiration, mentor, and you guys are what gave me the confidence to drive forward and do something that other people were telling me either I couldn't do, or it was wasting my time. Flat cold truth: if it hadn't been for that weekend in Harvest and meeting you guys, I'm not sure I would even be doing this right now. Even still flying pattern for that matter, because the planes themselves are what drive me, along with the great people I've met.

Also I know, for a fact, if Bryan hadn't wrecked that plane and had come to the Nats, that Concourse trophy would be hanging on HIS wall. I was just the other guy....but watch out next year, now that I know that trophy exists, I'm going to try and pull some tricks out of my sleeve!!!

That Shinden is beautiful, no doubt about it. I haven't seen it fly yet but hopefully David will have it at Apopka next weekend and I'll get to see it up close there. the only question mark in my mind and this is strictly from a design standpoint of having tested so many different things is that wing. It looks large, has a full 2 meter span and has a LOT of rake in it. I bet it rolls sweet. I am curious as to how it snaps and spin breaks. If I may ask, what's the chord at the root and at the tip?

Actually a painted in the mold composite plane CAN be light, OR it can break 11 lbs easy depending on how it's made.

Wood is actually not all that hard to get under weight easy, but you do have to take a lot of precautions and know a lot of tricks. I try and post them and share them every chance I get, because nothing is difficult about it, there's just a lot of little things that can add up. Usually a guy that buils an 11 lb wood plane would have a heart attack looking at how a 9 1/2 lb plane was built, he'd swear it wouldn't stay together. But it does, if done right. And usually lasts forever. Remember that Typhoon I was flying way back then? It's still flying, and still in the exact same condition as it was when you last saw it. And I am guessing it has somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500 flights, and that's being conservative. the guy that own it was at our district championship flying it about 6 weeks ago.

back to the topic, I have no doubt the Shinden flies great and will make a huge splash this coming season. I know Bryan doesn't do these boards so tell him I said hello and best of luck, I hope to see you guys soon!

-Mike

I got the joke.... the 3D has some vertical, doesn't it? I'll give you MY version of your tag line....


__________________________

Brian Clemmons
"I think my baby ate a Dingo..."

Actually, I had another one of THOSE years... came home from the World's to Katrina, followed by Rita; then blew my knee out beating Hebert in ping pong ( that's my story and I'm sticking to it ) then had surgery in May. I'm really excited about the upcoming season, and planning on making more contests than I have before. It'll be the 3D early, and the Shinden by July. I'm actually feeling good about my flying at this point, expecting to be on my game by April-May-June-July. If I can get a few practice flights like back in 2004, the 3D will have enough flights by July to warrant using another plane in Muncie! Thanks for asking, looking forward to seeing you too.

Brian

the only question mark in my mind and this is strictly from a design standpoint of having tested so many different things is that wing. It looks large, has a full 2 meter span and has a LOT of rake in it. I bet it rolls sweet. I am curious as to how it snaps and spin breaks. If I may ask, what's the chord at the root and at the tip?

Mike,
I don't remember the numbers. Maybe Hebert will finally kick in. The root is big, tip smaller. It rolls sweet, snaps better. The main problem with the spins is (as his caller) reminding him to drive it all of the way to the center. This one stops really fast. That is with the 160DZ. No surprise, there, you flying a YS.... ex-jet guys would have a soft spot for screaming engines
Just went to a Dingo, myself, and am loving it. Big time. Nothing like raw power, is there? I have a negative snap on video of my new plane; played slo-mo it is amazing how far it displaces when you cannot actually se it all happen, it is over in a moment. Power drives that. Did an avalanche with a negative snap, same thing.

Bryan always said that the available power plants are what drive his designs. He builds to the power; ergo, two meter wings again. Bigger presents better, if you have enough motive force. His next design also is driven by the amount of power available from the next generation YS offering. I want it, too!

_________________________

Brian Clemmons
"I think my next baby is dreaming of eating a Dingo....."

Very cool [8D] I'm looking forward to seeing you guys again, I'm actually considering a road trip to that area for a contest some time next year before the Nats. When I see the schedule, we'll pick one and roll.

This plane is definitely different enough that it has my curiousity peaked. This one and the Integral. This is just the geek in me trying to absorb all of the info I can and then weight it, analyze it, apply it, test it, etc. I've become a monster that way......

Yeah the YS is ridiculous. Funny thing is that now it has turned cold, the few times I've been to the field I'm doing long vertical elements at half throttle and the majority of the flight at about 1/3. Honestly I can't even see the need for a 170 if it's more powerful, I never even get close to full throttle on this thing except sometimes over the top of a humpty just to carve the radius. Of course I'm sure we'll just design bigger planes...........*ahem*

It's good to see you posting here! Sorry to hear about the rough time you had though....hopefully it's all sunny skies from here.

-Mike

In regards to the building light coment earlier, i agree, some of it is talent (patting mikes back). But...my first all wood(organic composite) airframe was bult using hand tools, the local hobbyshops wood which i walked in, grabbed sheets of whatever i needed and walked out (paid for).

Where i saved weight was thinking about wach step, following the plans (cough cough, i tried really), and using basic techniques shared here in these forums. Using Mikes thread, it applies to all airframes. I did not honeycomb my wing, i did not cut lightening holes etc, just built.. you can see my thread in the Insight builds.

Airframe ready to fly 10 lbs 4 oz. This is with an OS 160 and macs clone ppe and aluminum wing tube. Since, knife edge landing.... broke landing gear plate, redesign of that and now sitting at a hefty 10 lbs 8 oz.

I flew at the Nats, landed and weighed 11 .1 with fuel..


So, if you build thoughtfully (carefully) and cautiously, i think anyone can build light, not ridiculously light, but light enough to easily make weight.

just my .05 cents..

Chuck

I just talked to David at BVM Props. It looks like there might not be any white Shindens in the first shipment
of kits and the second shipment will not be here until March (If all go's well). The first shipment is almost sold out[X(]
If anyone had plans on getting one you better do it quick.

Hey guys,

Just wanted to drop a quick note, yesterday we flew the Shinden at the RCACF field and all went well. It's electric and is very solid. I only got a few laps on it and right off the bat, nailed a 1-1/2 snap on the 45° line.

Off to the field for more "product testing"!

Sweet.

Do I get to take it for a test drive this weekend?

Joe W.

Only If I do

Billy

Sorry guys, no test drives on it this weekend. But you can look/inspect all your hearts desire .

See some of you this weekend.

I wish I was there... I'd really like to see the Shinden as an electric. I know what you mean about the snaps, too, when Bryan feels like showing off he'll just fly around in knife-edge flight doing snaps non-stop. It's amazing to see...

Oh, one more thing, I'd just like to rub it in for jetpilot12 that Brian C and I got to fly the Shinden already...

All of this talk about the Shinden is making me moist[X(]

Oh man, that's disgusting... you kiss your daughter with that mouth?[:'(]

[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Hey guys, for anyone looking for more information, it is now posted on our website, the direct link is [link=http://www.bvmprops.com/Aircraft/shinden/shinden.html]Shinden[/link].

We also posted some info about the features on our [link=http://www.bvmprops.com/Events/tangerine06/tangerine.html]Tangerine event coverage[/link].

Thanks for the update, Dave. I was impressed to see everything that this kit comes with. Wish I could afford one right now!