Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
12-28-2006 | 06:18 AM
#51
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From: Agawam,
MA
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
My caller saw my mistake and immediately after the maneuver he began, quite loudly I might add, telling me what a great job I had done... the end result, a 9 and an 8.5.
My caller saw my mistake and immediately after the maneuver he began, quite loudly I might add, telling me what a great job I had done... the end result, a 9 and an 8.5.
ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
One final thought... if you want to see what a snap roll should really look like (other than the entry), rotate a spin on its side...
One final thought... if you want to see what a snap roll should really look like (other than the entry), rotate a spin on its side...
Edit: I just watched that video again…damn that’s some nice flying! The 1.5 snap at 5:33 is IMO a good example of what a snap should look like.
12-28-2006 | 06:29 AM
#52
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From: Randolph,
NJ
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: Divesplat
I don't think the rules call for anything different between the 2 disciplines(spins may be a different story) Pattern's 2007 AMA rules I haven't read yet but both require:
1) A break (some say the wing stalls but I hate that definition)
2) A rotation around the CG causing the tail and nose of the plane to make a cone shape
3) Stopping where the sequence requires.
I don't think the rules call for anything different between the 2 disciplines(spins may be a different story) Pattern's 2007 AMA rules I haven't read yet but both require:
1) A break (some say the wing stalls but I hate that definition)
2) A rotation around the CG causing the tail and nose of the plane to make a cone shape
3) Stopping where the sequence requires.
12-28-2006 | 06:57 AM
#53
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From: Lubbock, TX
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
Hey NJ. That is my understanding as IMAC doesn't have a downgrade for "displacement" caused by the snap, not heading but the plane should, if a snap is truely done, move in or out slightly depending on the direction of the snap. Pattern still has some arguments and I don't believe displacement has been listed as "not a downgrade"
Ed
Ed
12-28-2006 | 07:13 AM
#54
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From: Randolph,
NJ
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
I recently saw some new rules language that is being massaged that seems to address the reality of displacement for snaps in Pattern. I hope the final version helps to clear this up a bit more.
12-28-2006 | 08:12 AM
#55
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RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: Divesplat
I don't think the rules call for anything different between the 2 disciplines(spins may be a different story) Pattern's 2007 AMA rules I haven't read yet but both require:
I don't think the rules call for anything different between the 2 disciplines(spins may be a different story) Pattern's 2007 AMA rules I haven't read yet but both require:
Here is a prime example of why this discussion is important and I comment on this with all the respect in the world for you Jason and obviously we should carefully consider your understanding of the rules. I only bring it up because I (we) really need to understand if we are missing something here.
JAS,
As long as the “impression” of the snap done in front of me meets the criteria of the rules, then I will judge it as a snap. If there is no break (and it only needs to be a small one) then it will get a zero. If there is a break, followed by a barrel or axial roll, it will be given a zero. Otherwise, all other snaps get scored. "
As long as the “impression” of the snap done in front of me meets the criteria of the rules, then I will judge it as a snap. If there is no break (and it only needs to be a small one) then it will get a zero. If there is a break, followed by a barrel or axial roll, it will be given a zero. Otherwise, all other snaps get scored. "
Here is an exerpt from the judging criteria in the AMA rulebook unders Snaps on page 78.
A snap
that does not show a break and stall to initiate
the snap, but does enter a stalled attitude during
the maneuver is severely downgraded.
that does not show a break and stall to initiate
the snap, but does enter a stalled attitude during
the maneuver is severely downgraded.
]
12-28-2006 | 10:25 AM
#56
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: MikeEast
Here is an exerpt from the judging criteria in the AMA rulebook unders Snaps on page 78.
Are the statements from JAS and the rulebook in agreement and I am just misunderstanding?? Maybe a difference between FAI rules and AMA rules up to Masters?? []
Here is an exerpt from the judging criteria in the AMA rulebook unders Snaps on page 78.
A snap
that does not show a break and stall to initiate
the snap, but does enter a stalled attitude during
the maneuver is severely downgraded.
that does not show a break and stall to initiate
the snap, but does enter a stalled attitude during
the maneuver is severely downgraded.
]
12-28-2006 | 11:01 AM
#57
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From: ,
MI
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: mjfrederick
….. I just get the feeling from this thread that there are a lot of people out there harping on one single maneuver thinking that it will be the key to them making it into the "big time" instead of focusing on their pattern as a whole. I often compare pattern flying to ballet or figure skating. It's not just one trick that makes the whole sequence work, rather it is the way they work together....
….. I just get the feeling from this thread that there are a lot of people out there harping on one single maneuver thinking that it will be the key to them making it into the "big time" instead of focusing on their pattern as a whole. I often compare pattern flying to ballet or figure skating. It's not just one trick that makes the whole sequence work, rather it is the way they work together....
For us this week or month is snap rolls. Once this discussion has died down, hopefully another maneuver will take center stage and we can all learn something from that discussion.
I doub’t that will happen though, too much P’ing and M’ing going one in here for anybody to take a chance of starting this fire again.
12-28-2006 | 12:17 PM
#58
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
Sorry Mike, I should have clarified... As long as the “impression” of the snap done in front of me meets the criteria of the rules, then I will judge it as a snap. If there is no break (and it only needs to be a small one) then it will get a zero in F3A but severely downgraded for AMA classes. If there is a break, followed by a barrel or axial roll, it will be given a zero. Otherwise, all other snaps get scored.
Here's the FAI rules on a snap:
5B.4.3.5. SNAP-ROLLS
A snap-roll (or rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude.
Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be zeroed. Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be zeroed.
Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
And please, lets leave IMAC out of Pattern, the world is a better place this way...
Here's the FAI rules on a snap:
5B.4.3.5. SNAP-ROLLS
A snap-roll (or rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude.
Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be zeroed. Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be zeroed.
Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
And please, lets leave IMAC out of Pattern, the world is a better place this way...
12-28-2006 | 01:04 PM
#59
Senior Member
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
So you would zero Christophe seeing as his snaps look nothing like a horizontal spin?
12-28-2006 | 01:48 PM
#60
My Feedback: (55)
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
I've looked at the European Championships videos several times in regular and slow speed and
Christophe, to me, is clearly the smoothest flier there. Some of his flying is the best I've ever seen.
My comment on his snaps is, to me, it looks like he starts the snap with an aileron roll then the
airplane breaks into the rest of the maneuver. In slow motion it looks like, to me, the wings start
rolling before the airplane does anything else. As I understand it according to FAI rules this is to be
zeroed, although he does them so fast it's very hard to see at full speed. I personally don't have a
problem with this type of snap being judged as long as it's the same criteria for everyone else. To
tell you the truth if I was judging his flight I would have scored his snaps but would probably have
zeroed his wingover "OOPS" I mean stall turn !!
Anyway you look at it the best flier won the championship in my opinion.
Christophe, to me, is clearly the smoothest flier there. Some of his flying is the best I've ever seen.
My comment on his snaps is, to me, it looks like he starts the snap with an aileron roll then the
airplane breaks into the rest of the maneuver. In slow motion it looks like, to me, the wings start
rolling before the airplane does anything else. As I understand it according to FAI rules this is to be
zeroed, although he does them so fast it's very hard to see at full speed. I personally don't have a
problem with this type of snap being judged as long as it's the same criteria for everyone else. To
tell you the truth if I was judging his flight I would have scored his snaps but would probably have
zeroed his wingover "OOPS" I mean stall turn !!
Anyway you look at it the best flier won the championship in my opinion.
12-28-2006 | 02:14 PM
#61
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: JAS
Sorry Mike, I should have clarified... As long as the “impression” of the snap done in front of me meets the criteria of the rules, then I will judge it as a snap. If there is no break (and it only needs to be a small one) then it will get a zero in F3A but severely downgraded for AMA classes. If there is a break, followed by a barrel or axial roll, it will be given a zero. Otherwise, all other snaps get scored.
Here's the FAI rules on a snap:
5B.4.3.5. SNAP-ROLLS
A snap-roll (or rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude.
Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be zeroed. Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be zeroed.
Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
And please, lets leave IMAC out of Pattern, the world is a better place this way...
Sorry Mike, I should have clarified... As long as the “impression” of the snap done in front of me meets the criteria of the rules, then I will judge it as a snap. If there is no break (and it only needs to be a small one) then it will get a zero in F3A but severely downgraded for AMA classes. If there is a break, followed by a barrel or axial roll, it will be given a zero. Otherwise, all other snaps get scored.
Here's the FAI rules on a snap:
5B.4.3.5. SNAP-ROLLS
A snap-roll (or rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude.
Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be zeroed. Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be zeroed.
Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
And please, lets leave IMAC out of Pattern, the world is a better place this way...
Thanks for the positive feedback Jason.... That is the clarification I was looking for.[8D]
12-29-2006 | 12:21 AM
#62
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
ORIGINAL: PS it really is an issue (still) and needs to be discussed. I still think video is the key.
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WgM-cCN0lw]Collection of snap rolls part 1[/link]
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzdYArBFu_c]Collection of snap rolls part 2[/link]
12-29-2006 | 12:35 AM
#63
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
At a glance, to me in the 1st video the only snaps that showed pitch break to initiate the snap were the 1st one in the cloudy scene and the last snap on the video. The rest of them were pretty but if there was a break it was simulataneous to rotation to me. The second video there seemed to be more defined breaks but the snap at about 1:30 did not look much like a snap.
