This is a topic that has come up many, many times and doubtless will continue to do so.

I don't think there is any "better", let alone "best". This is after all a hobby, and thus one should use whatever one finds more satisfying.

Personally I enjoy internal combustion engines. I enjoy restoring old cars and motorcycles as well as I enjoy model airplane engines. I enjoy taking an old junker of a model engine and making it into a fine performer. I get a good deal of entertainment from running the old ignition model engines from the 1930s and 40s. As far as electrics, I enjoy the breeze from the electric fan in my shop, but find an electric powered model as entertaining as an electric toothbrush.

For those who enjoy flying but who lack either interest in or aptitude for things mechanical the electrics clearly have a higher "instant gratification" factor as well as obvious advantages for those who view wiping off a model with fear and loathing.

What some find fascinating others find fustrating. What some find entertaining others find boring. If we were all the same we would all be bored.

jess

jess

This arguement has happened a million times and will continue to happen. I my opinion it depends on a few factors. Size of plane: larger you go-better glow or gas is, because of the huge startup cost of large electric. What you fly, EDF jets are awesome and nobody(not many) use glow jets...or get a turbine lol= insane starup cost. The places you fly-I have no noise restrictions or size restrictions so I like large glow engines. What your comfortable with. Many grew up on glow. I personally love the sound and smell. Electric is like watching tv on mute. Your time commitment you can put in. If you fly once or twice before work go electric, if you want to do 4 or 5 flights in the afternoon go glow. Availability of glow fuel. If the nearest place that sells it is far, shipping glow fuel is rediculously expensive. I could keep going but that is it for now.

I have seen a few cost comparisons done. More often than not glow is cheaper as long as your plane is decent sized. My 74" glow plane would have cost twice as much if I did it electric. Especially since I already have equipment to support glow. It would have taken 340 some flights to make up the cost of electric, by then my lipo could have broken a few times so who knows.

Just my 2 cents!

Edit: lol just saw your post guess we have both seen this arguement before

For me, only electric. Having my plane set up in under 5 minutes, clean, consistent power (yes, with the modern cells it is very consistent). Packs getting cheaper and better every year, the airframe lasts for ever, servos do not wear down by vibrations, no complaints about the noise from anybody... I can understand why people like/use glow when they have a lot of experience and lot of money already invested in the equipment. For newbies though, electric makes much more sense, imho.

I have a friend who flies a lot of electrics and some glow, well he used to. His glow stuff never did this however.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...NEWS/905300321

Message deleted, Taurus Flyer.

I was all glow till about a year ago when I got my first electric plane. Now, I'm leaning more towards electric with only one glow plane left in my fleet; some are new electric others are conversions. I don't fly the park flyers, I'm flying 25 size and up. At this point in my life I really enjoy electric and it fits in. People complain about the money, but why have a hobby? LOL I like both, but right now electric is for me. I'm hoping to try my first gasser in about a year or two so we'll see how things go then. Let's just have some fun!!!!!

Great discussion!
I'm a glow-person myself, but can absolutely see the advantages in electrics.. Many, if not all, points has been listed in prevous posts. (Servo current drain/flight..?).
But for me, the sound, smell and smoke is in itself priceless.... Sure my engines have stopped in the middle of a competition once i a while, but that's competition for you... I've seen electric guys land premeturely as well, unknown the cause.

There is one issue not yet covered - flight time.. And not minutes per flight, but total "in-air" time once on the field. Until recently, LiPo packs took hours to charge... If one wanted a good 4-5 practice flights, he had to spend a fortune in 4-5 battery packs. (Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm a novice in electrics.. - These are my observations only). With glow, you can fly as many flights you want as long as you have fuel and radio batery. Fuel is of course...free...? Using a NiCd-pack, you can charge these batteries in a blink of an eye. (I threw out my LiPo and Li-Ion reciever packs due to long charging times...).

I know however, that there has been great development recently on the battery side, and charging times are probably down.
So maybe, just maybe, one day....
My next project is already planned fitted with noisy, smelly, smoky and lovely YS power

Thinn,


Read my earlier post:


I think you do find this a nice picture, look the smoke on left side!
The sound: Enya 60 4 stroke 1980, nearly without exhaust muffler

Cees

Gents,

We are talking about pattern flying, so, also in bad weather conditions you have to practice.
I normally have an engine temperature measurement on my glow engine, for detection of too high, but also too low temperatures.
When the engine temperature is below 14 degrees C I use hot water to make a higher temperature to evaporate the fuel in the mixture.

What that has to do with "No need for a starter"?

What are the electrical propulsers do with their battery below 24 degrees C, indeed!!
Not only to have the power, also trying to give them a longer life!!!

I only use two penlights (and about 50 cc (3 oz?) hot water only in the winter with temperatures below 14 C = 57,2 F) to start any glowplug engine.



Cees

Think of it this way, with electric you are basically paying for all your fuel up front versus a gallon at a time. For a pattern plane you can get a decent set of 10S packs for as little as $250. Properly charged and maintained (no over discharges, over charging) that set should get you 75 to 100 cycles (flights) of 8 minutes. Call it 800 minutes of flying.

A glow pattern plane will use what? 14 ounces for 10 minutes of flying? You'll get about 9 flights per gallon. Say $20 a gallon. 126 minutes of flying. So about 6.3 gallons for the same amount of flight time as the electric set up, or about $127 in fuel.

A good electric set up with a Neu F3A motor and Castle 85HV ESC will run you about $675.

A YS 1.70DZ + pipe will be +/- $925

The cost difference is about $250, or the cost of a decent set of 10S packs.

The basic power set up with fuel to get 800 minutes of flying with nitro will run you +/- $1,050.

The basic power set up with "fuel" to get 800 minutes of flying with electric will run you +/- $925 to $1,050.

SO in reality the numbers work out pretty close. Of course you can spend more on a motor and packs if you wanted to. On the other hand you servos will last a whole lot longer as will the airframe due to essentially zero vibration (not really zero, but pretty close).

So it really does come down to buying all your fuel up front or pay as you go. With a good charger you can recharge a set of packs in 45 minutes. Add in a second pack and at least at my field you will be set to go since unless you are flying alone you cannot really get more than 2 flights an hour.

And of course I ignored the heavy cost of all those paper towels and spray cleaner to clean the goo off you pride and joy with glow!!!

One big thing I think is that electric is "different". I remember when 4-strokes first came out people resisted them at first because they were "different". Nobody blinks an eye now.

As far as the fire thing goes. Properly handled lipos are no worse than any other battery. The worst fire I've ever seen was a heli guy who lost a $450,000 custom motor home when his 5-cell NiMH pack shorted during charging and burnt the RV to the ground while he was at dinner at a fun fly.

So pick your poison and go fly. And if you still don't like electric, that's OK too. But I think you are going to see the hobby move that direction more and more as noise continues to be the number one issue for flying site retention.

I warm my packs to right around 100 deg F (38 deg C) for best performance. On warmer days I just leave them on the tailgate of my truck. I also will put them on the dashboard (solar oven) or on the floor of the truck and run the heater. I also have an electric heating pad that I use when it really is too cold or cloudy for those other things.

Warming packs is no big deal to do.

So point 4 on the list:

4) Instant on; instant off?


Cees

Not sure what you mean. Most days there is no need to warm packs up. When there is I just keep them in the cab or if it really is that cold out, on the floor under the heater. Good to go as soon as I drop them in.

But I think this is a silly point. I never thought about the time to fuel/start, etc. Now one thing that is a little different is once you have the pack in the plane, you are ready to fly instantly. No worries about starting, warming the engine up, low idle killing the engine, etc. I especially like never having to think about the engine dying while flying. The end of the dead stick as we know it!!

Silent-AV8R


I just did repeat the list of "pro's" that was put in this thread by the starter and look to any point.
When the temperature is below 14 degrees outside I do need hot water to start when the temp is higher only the two penlights.
I understand that you have to "warm up" the cells when the temp is below 38 degrees C?
I do fly more than 40 years, also real gliders, deadstick is never a point and can be more a problem with 1000 USD in the plane and no experience with deadsticks.

When you write:
"I especially like never having to think about the engine dying while flying. The end of the dead stick as we know it!!"
Then it is time for extra education!!
When flying a real plane this way I never would be your passenger!!


Cees

A YS engine is by far the most expensive glow engine out there. You can get a super tigre 3250 for like $250, or an OS 160 for 300. Now there is bang for your buck if you know how to take care of them. I am not sure if your using YS as an example has to do with pattern flying as I don't have much experience there. Just making a point. Electrics are more expensive but the longer your plane lasts the closer it gets to even. As I said before in my experience it took about 300-350 flights to make the cost equal. That is a lot of flying. And a bottle of glow fuel, may cause damage if spilled, but it does not light on fire and destroy your $450,000 camper or van. That is what concerns me most about EP. I do not have the experience or mentor to teach me safe operation of lipo. I would probably be done flying if I caused that kind of damage to anything.

Edit: 450,000 can buy you a LOT of glow fuel. That is also a large price to pay for convienance.

This is simply an argument that won't end. Some like Ford and some Chevy and some Fiat. So be it. Very few people are going to admit their preference stinks and that the other way is better. Neither setup is without plusses and minuses. Realize too that many of the most vocal proponents of either technology are factory sponsored are compensated to promote their sponsor's merchandise. I fly electrics and certainly prefer them but there is nothing wrong with glow and I have certainly been beaten many, many times by people flying glow motors. Fly whichever you like and have a good time.

You are right ua767, I highlight a part of your post, but why do I read this below in your post? US sales for YGE controllers

Also point 11 and 12 are still on the list:

11) Zippy Rhino packs or TrueRC packs are now REALLY cheap.

12) Neu, Pletty, AXI, and Hacker have all broken the code and come up with numerous options.

For me it is no problem, I will always fly glow engines, with my "controllers".
To let me switch-over I will only listen to real arguments, no promotion!


Cees

For me, I may fly an electric every now and then, but just a park flyer or my small helicopter. When it comes to pattern I will never switch from glow. If I ever have to switch, I'll just stop flying pattern. From my point of view electric guys rank right up there on my annoyance meter with Mac owners and people who drive hybrids.

What is your point? I did not post anything remotely resembling a plug for things that I sell and I am not hiding any agenda. I like electric, you don't. You have made that abundantly clear by arguing with anyone who feels differently than you. You like glow, great that makes you happy. I'm not going to counter your reasons to make you seem wrong as you are doing with the pro-electric guys. You have posted 10 of 44 posts here, is that adding info or just arguing you way is better??

ual767


Why do some of you do have the messages in your posts?
"US sales for YGE controllers"

Let me tell you that I do not know what YGE controller are? Fuel pressure controllers?

Is that promotion or not?


Cees

Guys! F3A is a competition about flying, not motors. The propulsion is simply a means to an end, when the dust settles each one of use needs to use whatever propulsion setup we feel makes us the most competitive based on budget, experience, time, schedule, skill etc. etc. etc.

There is no right or wrong, it is simply a choice. Getting into an argument or disliking someone because what someone chooses to fly is rather silly.

That's taking it a little far, isn't it Matthew?

Actually that is being honest so that anyone who reads my posts can weigh my comments appropriately.

I know the starter of this thread and he is a new F3A flyer and truly wanted to know if he was missing out on something by flying electrics. Simple premise and desire for pros and cons.

Another thread becoming devoid of useful information......

I'm a scale guy and the fullscale airplane had IC therefore the scale model will. A fullscale Sonex flew with an electric motor and has the same flight time limitations as its electric model bretheren. I'll stick with IC. It's more fun for me! I like to tinker, tune and etc. I always chuckle about the 'clean and quiet' attributes of electric. The dirt and noise are just somewhere else in the power grid before it gets to your battery be it 'nuke', hydro or fossil fuel.

ual767

Did you get any response on your answer in the other thread? Downline vs. upline speed? No

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_88...tm.htm#8829129

So, after reading post 6 point 1, 11 and 12, I would have closed this thread when I was a moderator. "Promotion, off topic"
He did not do that, so I bring my arguments on any point of that list! Look to the subject: Glow vs. Electric, let the discussion begin!

Maybe it is good you explain the "idle adjustment" again, otherwise I will do that on my way for the glow plug engine if people want.
Inclusive the brake power of a spinning propeller!




Cees