Airplane Finish
02-15-2010 | 08:14 AM
#26
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RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: flyncajun
Arch,don`t take this the wrong way but,
don`t believe everything you read
no one can do it (glass over wood finish equal weight to film)
The question was whether Mike`s system could be done lighter than monocoat ,you said it could
Neither Mike`s, nor my System can be done lighter than Monocoat. with ANY quality.
Molding an airplane skin finish, then painting the surface. is not the same thing, totaly different system not even the same league , molds have to be used.
Paint is the least weight involved in a painted wing or fuse once the surface has been prepaired.
On a 950 square wing monocoat weighs 30 grams total
If you use .5 cloth it s 15 grams then ,it takes minimum of 20 grams of epoxie per wing( and it takes lots of experiance to learn to use that little ) thats 35 grams, and then you you have to prime and paint. thats another 2 onces if your good,all conservative numbers.
The lighter the cloth the more filler it takes to fill the weave so No it`s not possible anyone who says it is, has never painted or never weighed the process in stages to compare.
The only way to get a light or equal weight finish is with dope and silk and that takes years of practice to do it right with a decent finish. Then you have a finish not as strong as film.
Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe.
then you can have a light, painted airframe.
But that was not the question.
Bryan
Arch,don`t take this the wrong way but,
don`t believe everything you read
no one can do it (glass over wood finish equal weight to film)The question was whether Mike`s system could be done lighter than monocoat ,you said it could
Neither Mike`s, nor my System can be done lighter than Monocoat. with ANY quality.
Molding an airplane skin finish, then painting the surface. is not the same thing, totaly different system not even the same league , molds have to be used.
Paint is the least weight involved in a painted wing or fuse once the surface has been prepaired.
On a 950 square wing monocoat weighs 30 grams total
If you use .5 cloth it s 15 grams then ,it takes minimum of 20 grams of epoxie per wing( and it takes lots of experiance to learn to use that little ) thats 35 grams, and then you you have to prime and paint. thats another 2 onces if your good,all conservative numbers.
The lighter the cloth the more filler it takes to fill the weave so No it`s not possible anyone who says it is, has never painted or never weighed the process in stages to compare.
The only way to get a light or equal weight finish is with dope and silk and that takes years of practice to do it right with a decent finish. Then you have a finish not as strong as film.
Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe.
then you can have a light, painted airframe.
But that was not the question.
Bryan
Bryan,
I wasn't reading anything from Wingo. I have physically seen the wings on scales. We have IDENTICAL setups, servos and everything else, and his wings are actually slightly lighter than mine with Monokote, and my wings are 13.5oz ready to fly. Since my fuse and his are glassed, that is a wash.
Arch
02-15-2010 | 09:30 AM
#28
My Feedback: (45)
RE: Airplane Finish
Bob,
Honestly have to give credit to my wife for that one. Yes, my wife, however she was a girlfriend at the time, but I'm sure you can see why I married her. She was in the shop with me when i started and she said that looks like fun. I showed her how to do it and off she went. That plane has set in the sun all over the country, including Texas and have NEVER developed a wrinkle. She even managed to make herself a Monokote phone cover for her cell phone. Rusty Dose interviewed her about her phone cover at the NATS in 2007, it was quite funny.
Arch
Honestly have to give credit to my wife for that one. Yes, my wife, however she was a girlfriend at the time, but I'm sure you can see why I married her. She was in the shop with me when i started and she said that looks like fun. I showed her how to do it and off she went. That plane has set in the sun all over the country, including Texas and have NEVER developed a wrinkle. She even managed to make herself a Monokote phone cover for her cell phone. Rusty Dose interviewed her about her phone cover at the NATS in 2007, it was quite funny.
Arch
02-15-2010 | 01:28 PM
#31
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From: no city,
AL
RE: Airplane Finish
Some of the lightest,most beautiful and durable finishes on the planet are found on control line precision aerobatic models. I think Windy Urtnowski, Brodak, and others offer videos and literature as well as finishing products.
jess
jess
02-15-2010 | 07:51 PM
#32
My Feedback: (221)
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: dhal22
monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd.
ORIGINAL: flyncajun
It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome.
However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength
you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film.
You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible.
Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear.
Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish.
If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t.
Bryan
It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome.
However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength
you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film.
You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible.
Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear.
Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish.
If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t.
Bryan
monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd.
02-16-2010 | 09:23 AM
#34
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From: hot springs, AR
RE: Airplane Finish
i have just read all these posts and feel i have to reply with my 2C. Glassing and painting is at least double the weight of monokote if you put either of these on the same structure. For example if your finished structure is a given weight, then monokoting will give x weight-glassing and painting will give 2x weight. I have been doing this for over 30 years. I have done both. I have tried all kinds of paint and coverings. the only way to have finished structures the same weight with glassand paint vs monokote is to change the structure which is what Bryan and I do. Bryan and I cuss and discuss this stuff all the time. He says I thought him to paint but he is better than I, so whatever. I much prefer paint if it is doable. I just enjoy the plane so much more.
mike Harrison
mike Harrison
02-16-2010 | 04:21 PM
#35
RE: Airplane Finish
back on page 13 of my classic pattern plane build is a .50 glass and polycrylic covered wing sitting on scales weighing 27 or so ounces.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6819340/tm.htm
primer and nelson hobbies paint has increased the wing weight by about 3 oz. i'm sure clear coat will add a couple more ounces. so based upon the experience of far better builders than me monocoting the wing would have added 2-3 oz vs 5-6 ozs? 2-3 extra ounces seems acceptable to me. and no seams!
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6819340/tm.htm
primer and nelson hobbies paint has increased the wing weight by about 3 oz. i'm sure clear coat will add a couple more ounces. so based upon the experience of far better builders than me monocoting the wing would have added 2-3 oz vs 5-6 ozs? 2-3 extra ounces seems acceptable to me. and no seams!
02-17-2010 | 05:10 PM
#36
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From: Columbus,
OH
RE: Airplane Finish
I'm in the process of glassing and painting my first pattern plane. I purchased a video from Don Ramsey on the proper techniques on glassing and painting a pattern wing. It is a great source of info. In that video he weights the wing panels at each stage of the process. At the end of the process he increased the wing panels by about 33%. In my case, I just finished glassing the entire plane. I increased the weight of each component so far by 20% or so. Don increased his by a little less than 20% after the glassing stage. Since this is my first time I feel like I'm in the right ball park. I estimate I will increase the weight of my plane by less than 35%. If you choose to glass and paint I would bet you will increase your plane by 35% also. Hope this helps.
02-17-2010 | 05:33 PM
#37
RE: Airplane Finish
Hi Ron,
Don is using the methods I taught him in that video, with a few tweaks of his own added.
those #`s can be reduced with better prep.
But now you can see the effort it takes to prevent a modest gain in weight
Don is using the methods I taught him in that video, with a few tweaks of his own added.
those #`s can be reduced with better prep.
But now you can see the effort it takes to prevent a modest gain in weight
02-19-2010 | 12:48 PM
#38
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From: New Milford,
CT
RE: Airplane Finish
Bryan,
You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric.
John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs
You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric.
John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs
02-19-2010 | 12:52 PM
#39
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From: Bridgewater,
NJ
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: jrpav1
Bryan,
You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric.
John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs
Bryan,
You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric.
John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs
02-19-2010 | 11:10 PM
#40
RE: Airplane Finish
Yes John I remember that beautiful airplane ,
I voted for it
Outstanding finish and workmanship! a really nice looking airplane with a mirror finish.
I`m sure Bob Noll wishes he could paint like that LOL
Monocoat is a great product, it takes lots of abuse and is very light it`s hard to beat.
Raiko Potter is a Master at using that Stuff. and gets very good results from his efforts.after two or three seasons ,his airplanes still look new.
Arch`s wife is also fast becoming a master.
Silkspan is also good but fragile, after 500 practice flights or one season ,, if your not carefull ,it you could really have a beat up airplane.
Bryan
I voted for it
Outstanding finish and workmanship! a really nice looking airplane with a mirror finish.
I`m sure Bob Noll wishes he could paint like that LOL
Monocoat is a great product, it takes lots of abuse and is very light it`s hard to beat.
Raiko Potter is a Master at using that Stuff. and gets very good results from his efforts.after two or three seasons ,his airplanes still look new.
Arch`s wife is also fast becoming a master.
Silkspan is also good but fragile, after 500 practice flights or one season ,, if your not carefull ,it you could really have a beat up airplane.
Bryan
02-19-2010 | 11:39 PM
#41
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From: Apple River IL
RE: Airplane Finish
KK is/was like using K&B Superpoxy (you'll like it David). If you never painted with K&B them you missed out. By the way, arguing about a dozen or few dozen grams seems moot when after one or two epoxy repairs will nearly equal that. If you want durability, shine, sheen, gloss, pazazz, then paint it; if you want ooh, ahhh, flash, fancy, quick, peel, and lift, then nanocote it. 
hook
hook
02-20-2010 | 12:09 AM
#42
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From: Boise,
ID
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: hook57
If you want durability, shine, sheen, gloss, pazazz, then paint it; if you want ooh, ahhh, flash, fancy, quick, peel, and lift, then nanocote it.
If you want durability, shine, sheen, gloss, pazazz, then paint it; if you want ooh, ahhh, flash, fancy, quick, peel, and lift, then nanocote it.
04-23-2010 | 02:29 PM
#43
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From: South Lyon,
MI
RE: Airplane Finish
So what I am hearing is that there is not a lot of weight difference between glass/silkspan paint finish and film finish. The real difference is that glass/silkspan paint finish is a much more desirable finish regardless of weight.
04-23-2010 | 03:02 PM
#44
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From: South Lyon,
MI
RE: Airplane Finish
I am building an Epsilon 120 and it is a little on the heavy side (by design, not because of building heavy). I was hoping to save a lot of weight by trying silkspan and dope instead of monokote. If there isn't enough weight savings, than I might as well use Monokote.
edited to replace over with instead
edited to replace over with instead
04-24-2010 | 05:51 PM
#45
Senior Member
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: mcdanman2003
I am building an Epsilon 120 and it is a little on the heavy side (by design, not because of building heavy). I was hoping to save a lot of weight by trying silkspan and dope over monokote. If there isn't enough weight savings, than I might as well use Monokote.
I am building an Epsilon 120 and it is a little on the heavy side (by design, not because of building heavy). I was hoping to save a lot of weight by trying silkspan and dope over monokote. If there isn't enough weight savings, than I might as well use Monokote.
MattK
04-24-2010 | 08:20 PM
#47
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From: South Lyon,
MI
RE: Airplane Finish
I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I mean that I was debating of finishing my model with silkspan and dope hoping to save weight. As I understand from my reading, that the choice is not so much a question of weight savings, rather it is a personal preference. I think I will just monokote to save all the work.
