Earned Advancement
 

I think it's high time we went to advancement being earned rather than choice or forced due simply to the amount of pilots you beat.

This was brought up , again, on the Nsrca email list and I think it's time we started debating this for implementation in a year or two.

I know Japan and other countries do this and I think it's a good thing.

Each pilot would have to earn his way into the next class. No voluntary advancement.

Several points to ponder, certainly not the only ones we need to look at mind you.

Pilots ability to fly to a certain level of perfection on a consistent basis. 8+ point average over 3 years or 30 contests

Possibly a "Qualifier" contest Sly to determine the pilots ability to fly the next higher class and the judges determine advancement or not. Sort of like the Masters contest.

Amount of contests flown.

Years between competitive flying.

Allow or force a pilot back a class if a certain % of total score is not achieved on a consistent basis.

Anyone from another country here have the procedures used in that country?

Worth a look or a boondoggle?

I believe this would instill pride in the advancement system in "Most" fliers as a goal to be achieved.

Not something to be shunned.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

The biggest question is simply, who is going to keep track of it? I would like to see a possible idea of letting someone fly 2 classes in a higher class, and then move back. You only get to test the waters once, but at least let them try it and figure out that maybe they made a mistake. Too often people jump in and move up and and realize they are over their head and can't go back. If you let someone test the waters, and then go back, you would eliminate a lot of this.

Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

In the world of computers today and given we all use them to score contests now I'd "think" it would be rather easy to compile into a database.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

http://www.mini-iac.com/Portals/0/Re...pilot_187.html

See the link above. IMAC does a GREAT job of capturing every contestents scores and inputing into their website for all to see. You can see individual maneuver scores for all pilots, every sequence, every contest. The CD sents the results to the Regional Director and they are input into the system. With this example, it would not be hard to analyze the data for a system like Mastertech is advocating.

Thanks,
Jim W.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I believe any pilots ability to fly a high score on a consistent basis as a far better judge of his abilities than how many people you happen to beat at a contest.

This would allow the perennial sand bagger to be "forced" to move up and the casual flier or a guy that stays in the middle of the pack to go where his abilities suggest he be.

We can have a forced advancement and a "try out" for advancement I'd think.

Lets at least look at it and debate it and see if it's something we might want to do.

Winning a national championship should equal a forced advancement IMHO. Maybe even the top 3 places.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I'm interested in seeing how the 'try out' would work. My scores average close to 8, maybe 7.5, flying Sportsman. I want to move to intermediate, but I get my butt kicked when I try the schedule. Probably depends on who's definition of 'but kick' you go by though; I'd probably get a zero or two on some rounds, and lots of 4-6 scores in intermediate (my guess). Probably forcing myself into the intermediate class would force me to practice, and learn where I'm making mistakes. Might improve rather quickly, might struggle, who knows?

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Wow, you guys get sandbaggers? Where's the fun in being a big fish in a small pond?!?


Joe, just get in there and move up, If you're getting those kind of scores consistently it's time for a new schedule and a new learning curve..


I thought most of us were in the hobby for the challenge,aren't we?

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Seems like some people like to stay in the lower classes to keep winning there, I mean "all" lower classes, I think by doing that they also discourage new or advancing people who wants to move up but cannot jump over this pilots.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Speaking from personal experience... You are doing yourself a disservice by not challenging yourself. I flew Sportsman for 2 years. I needed to, but seeing what I saw at the D4 finals most of the sportsman pilots were doing a great job and would be better served moving to Intermediate. Also with the change in the sequence, this years Int guys will be learning a new seguence along with new Int Pilots.
RC

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I would think the "System" would move those that are clearly ready to make the jump through normal contest flying. It could also allow those who "Think" they're ready to try the next class and see. If the judging panel disagrees then they can not move up yet. If they do agree then the pilot is awarded his "Masters" badge, or whatever class it happens to be.

The Japanese do this and you see the Beaming faces when they're handed their "Certificate" It's a far better achievement than winning a contest. Peers telling you that you fly well enough to jump up to the next level has to be inspiring.

Imagine Arch, Chip or AJ handing you your advancement certificate and telling you "You're ready man, go for it".

Many contests we've seen guys clearly way in over their head in a class simply because they've not flown in a long time or shouldn't have been in that class to begin with.

We also see many pilots "Hang out" in a class due to the fear of the next class or just to collect "iron".

The rules should allow forced advancement and demotion.

I understand telling a guy he just can't cut it in Masters and he needs to move back to Advance will be hard for some to take but I suspect more would be glad to move back.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Joe,

From what I saw last weekend, you are ready to move up. All of the guys flying sportsman could easily move to Intermediate. It is going to be a challenge, but it is supposed to be. If you moved right into Intermediate and were flying 10's off the bat, then you would be way ahead of the curve. I don't think you'll have any trouble once you go through it a few times, especially since you have "help" in that area to fly with you and coach you.

Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

A good coach is, IMHO, the best single thing you can have to improve your flying. Practicing the same bad habits only leads to bad habits.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Mastertech, is there a large problem in your area with guys being over their heads in their current class? From what I've seen, by the end of the season there are a lot of pilots nearly too good for their class.
I do think a single contest try out might be a good idea, but there's nothing keeping you from doing that in practice.

My move to Intermediate after three Sportsman contests last year was a big challenge but I'm glad I did it.

Scott

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Scott,

It's not many but it does happen.

The reverse is a larger fact however. Guys hanging around a class they shouldn't be.

The real point of all this, IMHO, is to make the jump to the next class something to be extremely proud of.

A goal if you will.

It shouldn't be taken lightly and should require a certain amount of skill demonstrated to a panel of judges.

If you want to jump to the next class, prove you've mastered the skills required for your current class.

I'm hoping some guys from countries that do this will chime in and tell us how they do it.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I think a skill derived class mobility would be welcomed. Given ebbs-n-flows in life and practice time, some years we can be competitive and some years we are not. I think everyone deserves to fly in a class that they can be happy in, and be competitive for a trophy from time to time as well.
Jim W.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Surprisingly, Australia is leading America on a very workable promotion system. The current national average is 436 and promotion percentages are worked out from there. See attached Australian rules.

The promotion percentages are:

Sportsman 43%
Advanced 70%
Expert 80%
FAI 100%

Regards,
Jason.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

The Aussie system in a nutshell uses your raw scores for the first 4 rounds calculated against the national average for Aussie F3A raw scores.

http://www.australianpatternassociat...au/index2.html

It doesn't matter if you come first, last or if there's 1 competitor or 100 in your class, if your average raw score for the first 4 rounds is high enough you earn a "promotion point". Earn 3 of those in any 12 months and you find yourself promoted to the next class.

It's an easy enough system to sandbag but if that's your game you'll find a way around most other systems.

It has pluses and minuses like any system, if the judges go too easy on you then you'll "earn" a promotion point, if the weather it bad then you won't get a point even though you probably did earn it. A DNF in any of the first 4 rounds blows your point away, but if you're desperate enough to get a butt kicking you can jump up to the next class anyway.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Tim,

I've always thought this was a good idea... however, implementing it would require major coordination between all the scoring programs to send an extract in a particular format to a central repository. We actually had a couple of guys very interested in doing this and did start a project to see if it was possible. The NSRCA can always come up with a file layout that all scoring programs adhere to when creating their extracts so that we can keep track of these scores in a database. Keeping track of them and coming up with a formula and posting the results is the easy part - the hard part is the implementation.

We can do a pilot on this if there is truly interest in going forward with this... as far as I know there are only 2 scoring programs in use throughout the USA - Gene Maurice's and Gordon Anderson's (we use his in D7 and D8). I've talked with Gordon and he said that creating an extract file is easy enough...

RE: Earned Advancement
 

G'day Derek,

Why reinvent the wheel? Possibly contact the APA to see if the Australian scoring system could be used over there. After each comp the CD e-mails a file containing all the scores to the national CD. The scoring system we use runs in MS Access and I believe it was created by Glenn Burgdorf. I don't think there would be an issue with sharing the software so long as it's not used for profit.


Regards,
Jason.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Derek this could solve part of the process.

I still would like to instill pride in the advancement process, a Milestone if you will.

I'd also think placing in the top 3 at the Nats would mean an automatic advancement.

Moving to the next class is supposed to be a challenge and one to overcome.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

There may be pride in moving up.....but not in moving down.
Flying Pattern is enough of a challenge as it is without having to deal with something like this.
People dont like to be 'forced' to do something against their will.....besides, there is an established way to voluntarily move down.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Dave

So, with that in mind. If someone gets older, or just doesnt have time to fly, we should make the patterns easier for them, rather than them move back to a sequence that challenges them, instead of their current sequence which may be harder than they can handle? We punish the others, so that someone who shouldnt be flying a certain pattern, can still fly that sequence, without hurting their pride? That doesnt make sense to me. With that rational we would be building sequences so that the last place guy can fly a sequence, rather than challenging the others in the same class.

Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Bingo!

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Bingo yourself Tony......

Arch...you don't seem to understand what I said....all I said was..."there is an established way to voluntarily move down."
I don't think anyone should be "forced" to move in either direction by establishing some additional rule.
I never said anything about "punish others" either.
At least I have the guts not to be anonymous and to voice my views.
There are probably others out there who feel the same way as I do but are too timid to say anything.
After all....not too many peanut gallery guys like me are going to get into this kind of a discussion with many of the top pilots in the USA.
Tony...I wholeheartedly understand why you dont fly FAI anymore.....one of the things I like about you is your willingness to say why.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I believe there is a proposal now up for the Contest Board vote, in fact they have probably already voted, on changing the wording of Must Advance in the rulebook to Should Advance. It's a small change but means there would no longer be mandatory advancement. I think it's a good idea.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I think we should vote on it. All in favor of Tony F moving up to FAI raise ur hand ;) motion passes:) congratulations Tony...... Just Kidding... I think Moving up in class is a personnel choice for all the various reasons and should move is worded as it should have been all along.


gary

RE: Earned Advancement
 

The concern I hold is when I see a pilot or pilots flying in higher classes, sacrificing what I believe to be the fundamentals of pattern flying and that is precison and gracefulness, in order to "get through" the more complicated maneuvers.

A square loop with rolling elements in the straight lines should look like a square loop first and fourmost, not some four sided figure where the straight line segments and radi are used to correct for wobbly rolling elements.

Getting through the maneuvers isn't the challenge, for me it's about maintaining the precision and gracefulness despite the complexity. You don't learn to play the piano by someone standing behind you calling the sheet music while you try to press the right keys and it takes more skill to play the Chopsticks well, than to play Fur Elise poorly..

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Dave,

I'm not saying we have to force anyone to move down. What I'm saying is that if people who probably should move down, don't, we can't base the sequences on their skill set. If 20 people are in a class, and 18 of them can get through the sequence without any risk to themselves, others, or the airplane, while 2 can't (not saying it is this bad, but using it as an example), then the sequence should be built for the other 18, not the 2 who don't want to accept that maybe they should move down. I think if you look at scores and guys are constantly scoring in the 700's to low 800's and have been flying a sequence for some time, they might want to consider moving back a class.

Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Correct Arch,

When I first posted this, I struggled with the word "Forced". Maybe with the scoring system in place into a national data base a flier that is in the lower 10-15% can move down a class if he so desires.

I agree being forced down a class can be a big hit to ones Ego. Some guys would welcome the change however.

Tim

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Tim,

I like the giving guys the option to move back if they need to. I honestly don't see a lot of people who would use the opportunity to take advantage of the situation, so I think it would definitely work. A lot of pattern is confidence in your own abilities. I think you would actually see situations where a guy could move back to Advanced from Masters (and maybe that is the only class we let people move out of and stay there), and once he gets back to Advanced regains some confidence in himself and might want to move back up. I do think we need to let the lower class guys however have it setup so they can "try" a new sequence at 1 or 2 contets to see if they are really ready. Flying a sequence at home alone and in front of judges are two different things. Let guys test the waters if they haven't pointed out. But in Masters, let guys have the option if they are uncomfortable with a sequence of moving back.

Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Worth pondering for a bit and see how it works out. I do like the idea of allowing guys to try the next higher class a few contests before committing to it. After all this is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I've seen a lot of times guys were scared to try the next higher class from fear of not being able to go back. Most would stay once they move up, but at least it would help eliminate the fear from the equation.


Arch

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I can relate to this. I'd have tried flying Intermediate at a contest or two with a small Sportsman turnout. Probably with a little coaching and feedback the jump would not seem that dramatic. Flying alone makes the transition difficult; I've been practicing Sportsman and having a tough enough time memorizing that routine, let along trying a full Intermediate schedule. Having a caller and some judges for feedback would be pretty sweet, and if it isn't time to jump up, you could go back.

I'll be working on moving up next summer regardless, just throwing in my $.02 for others in the same position, or for when it's time to consider the move to Advanced.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

With the current US Advancement system, I've advocated it be guidance and not steadfast rule - for a couple reasons -
- no one really tracks the points.
- no one wants to be forced to move if they are truly not ready to move up.
- the broad demographics of the US make it near impossible to find a single point system that is equally fair to all flyers.
- if the advancement system is in place as guidance, the majority are going to adhere to it, and follow it.
- if the advancement system is in place as guidance, it is a foundation for peer pressure, which can be more influential/effective than the advancement system itself.

The US system now is not perfect, and given the broad demographics of the US, it never will be. Would adoption of the Aussie system (verbatim or modified) be an improvement? Maybe. I'd throw in the South African system (similar to the Aussie system) as another to consider - I've seen it used, discussed, debated, and tweaked, and it works very well for the South Africans.

Regards,

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Dave,

I think looking at all the different countries point system is worth while. So far I prefer the national bank of scores and believe the system would work just fine. It would almost run in the back ground as the CD would bear the brunt of doing the reports.

IMAC (As I've read) does this and seems to work fine for them, I don't see why it wouldn't for us as well.
Making the "Forced" jump to the next class by raw scores against the rule book seems to me to be more realistic than how many points you get for placement in local contests.

Tim

RE: Earned Advancement
 

3 more points -

You can practice the next class before moving into it (as Joe M is doing), and you might find doing so improves your flying in your current class.

I think most would prefer to be demoted to the next lower class than suck up their pride and voluntarily move down. In essence, it is simply recognition that one's peak skills are not middle of the pack in either class, and a pilot may spend the bulk of their pattern current bouncing between two clases......too good for the lower class, but not quite good enough for the higher class. I think is as much a cultural idea/change as anything else.

In countries that have a large enough number of pilots to support multiple classes, a building block structure to the classes can be put in place, and can be effective at developing trimming skills and flight skills. The goal or system is designed to "build" better pilots and promote competition at all levels. FAI has no such goal or system. The goal of FAI is to pick the very best Team and very best pilot in the world, and as such, the FAI system is desinged to do exactly that, which does not make it particuarly well suited for local contests. For an FAI flyer, the mechanisms to improve are largely placed on the flyer, and the support network to assist them simply does not exist to the extent it does with AMA flyers (in the US).

Regards,

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Sweet, so now we're going to have a new cheer during the awards ceremony. . . <div>.</div><div>.</div><h1 size="5"><span style="font-size: -webkit-xxx-large;"><font color="#FF0000">"Move Down!!!"</font></span></h1><div>.</div><div>.</div>

RE: Earned Advancement
 

When I pointed out of Advanced, I was flying fairly well and making almost all the contests.

Life, money and the pursuit of happiness has led me to fly occasionally and I get to go to contests. Now, when I do, it is everything I can do to break 900.

I still have fun, I enjoy being around good friends and sharing and learning, but... the desire to win kills me. Yet, i go, and I know i will not win.

I want to be competitive and if i flew more often I would no doubt fly masters, but lately, i would rather fly advanced and be competitive with those guys than go fly 6 rounds of mediocre sequences.

Chuck Hochhalter

RE: Earned Advancement
 

I still think that making everyone fly the sportsman schedule (scored of course) for the first round would be a good way to loosen up the thumbs at local competitions. It's easy to fly and is a great way to get your eye in at a new field.

RE: Earned Advancement
 

Once you have flown Masters or FAI you should be able to move back and forth. No system in a hobby should force anything. Gentlemen this is not a life or death situation. Case in point; Tony Frackoviak who made the US national team several times (i.e. flies like the Gods) moved back to Masters!