RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Thanks Volkert, the encouragement is appreciated.
I certainly intend to get as far up the rung as I can go. The Sebart Wind 110E is definately on the shopping list. Doing some basic calcs I could get it flying for a little over a $1000 which is reasonable for a top quality plane as the Wind. They also make the F3Aversion which increases in price by a factor of 3!! I have no shortage of 90 to 1.20 size pattern planes at reasonable prices. Its just whenan F3A sticker is applied to the decal set then the price goes up. Not all the price is materials and labour, I think theres a premium also attached to the "F3A'. No doubt I could get hold of one of Andre Stockwell's Quantum EL's for a very reasonable price over here (Lotsof work though)

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Got out of bed on wrong side this morning.....

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I suspect there is more to this statement than people would like to admit.

I look at the Sebart Wind 50E. It's 65" long, with a 62" span, and it comes in at roughly 6.5 pounds RTF (unless you use heavy components) for $340. That's what we used to pay for a kit for a pattern airplane of the same size when they were in vogue. $350 for a fuse, some foam cores, and some small, hand-drawn 'plans' from R/C City.

Scaling up, you gain 8.8 ounces from the motor (going from Hacker A50 to Q80), and you pickup another 26 ounces for the increased battery size. So you're roughly at 2.3 pounds available for airframe weight. Now obviously this is not a perfect calculation because things like servos, linkages, etc. will get heavier as well. But I find it difficult to believe looking at the construction that it couldn't be enlarged to 2m length using the same construction methods and still make weight.

Yet the 2M all composite version costs $2000. Seems to me Sebart (or others) could build a 2m airplane for a lot less money, but when people WILL spend $2-5k for an ARF airframe.. why bother?

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

WHAT???? What are you talking about.

Your comment was simply answered...."Ignorance is Bliss"

If I need to explain, then, it's THE reason why there is room. The masses generally don't have a clue as to how thoroughbreds perform

Now that you have egg on your face, apologize. Lest I come down to Aussie land and have my pet Kangaroo box your ears off while my pet Dingo is breaking your props...LOL

That's a joke, bloke

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: MTK


Wiping egg off face now :D

But my army of trained Kookburras will wipe the floor with your Kangaroo and Dingo....

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Ha, Ha!! There you go....me likey much better.
KOOKBURRA sounds filthy

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Bryan,

What did you do? Seed your garden with minced beef?

John

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

How big is the pattern plane market in US? Out of that, how many compete above the intermediate level? With these two numbers, you will know how expensive high-end pattern planes will cost.

I do not expect things will change.

But if you can get a good fiberglassed plane, it will last a very long time, or retain it's value. So your investment on it may not be at a total loss. probably better than wood buildup planes.

Think positively.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I agree with Renegade. things cost what they cost because that's what people will pay for them.
Having said that, and having just completed my first modern pattern plane (a Xigris C2), pattern planes and kits are different.
Components like vacuum bagged fuselages, carbon fiber landing gear and other very light components are labor intensive and therefore more costly to produce.
I don't think we're entirely rational in our purchasing decisions, either. A friend has tried to sell a couple of very nice pattern planes at a very reasonable prices without a single nibble. We don't want 'good enough', we feel like we need the ultimate, even when we're starting out.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I don't think anyone really understands how few of each plane is ever built. Let's take the 2M Focus.

I think ther were only a couple hundred sold over 5 yrs! Now planes are bigger...harder to make weiight and especially with electric systems.

Most look at the cost of materials..but you have to pay the designer. Builder and shipper. Plus most arfs are made in china. Shipping from china has changed over the last years and cost to ship it outrageuos for single planes there fore must go by container.

If anyone wants to order a container of 25 2M planes to the US or Australia..please contact me via email

[email protected]. check out our Favorit bipe!


Regards

Chuck hochhalter

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Anyone crying about the cost of one of these aircraft ought to try racing RC Hydros ,specifically Twins . It's not for everyone and the build time is extensive and no where near as precise as a pattern aircraft ....but if you want to go fast out of the box ....either do it yourself or pay the price . Quality and precision cost ...in hours or dollars . No free lunch .

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

It's interesting, I've gotten into DLG's and the cost of airframes get brought up there routinely also. A good bagged DLG (Kevlar wings, carbon/Kevlar Fuse) is $450 an all molded carbon DLG is pushing $1,000! This is for a 1.5M 4 channel plane that will weigh maybe 10 ozs when finished!

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Try pricing out a top of the line competitive heli for 3D or precision....

Arch

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

It's ANY sport, in ANYfield. The last 2% of performance tends to have exponential cost. Almost by definition, things that are made for the masses (and therefore low cost) can be "Tweaked" for better performance. As someone earlier stated, you either need to do the work yourself, or pay someone skilled to do it for you. If it was easy, then everyone would be doing it, so again, by definition it's NOT easy.

The problem lies in that you don't NEED that last % of performance to be competitive in all but the very highest top few % of competitors. We just think we do, or we like it. Either way, we're there.

I fly a top of the line pattern plane. But Andrew could still kick my ***** with a with $350 Osiris. And if I step down a rung I can do the same to other people.

Most of us like to have equipment that outperforms our abilities. We don't need it, we just want it. I build because I don't like paying someone to build. But that doesn't devalue the time and effort. Just less cash out of pocket.

Unfortunately the lack of builders has led to a lack of demand for kits, which has only increased the price and caused even fewer to survive. It's become a downward spiral I'm afraid.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

So what about plans built models? Is there a list of plans, or anyone know a couple of designs where plans are available for a 2M off the top of there heads.
I know of the Black Magic and a friend has one, but being new to all of this and the dynamic change of the event and the change of available ARF's over the last couple of years makes it too expensive for me to buy one anyway. I can build, though.
I see buying used YS 170's and building balsa models at home as being a good way to go.
Thanks,
Chris...

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Chris, DLG took a huge shot in the arm when plans for a very competitive design was made available to anyone and everyone free of charge.

It did help that the designer is an MIT professor in aeronautics and a very active aeromodeller. This gave the design a huge amount of credibility and a number of small cottage industries sprung up around this design making various bits and pieces and even whole planes. There would have been hundreds of these things built around the world.

While still a very competitive design, now the sport has become more widespread it's opened up the door for $1K fully molded DLG's with and their respective manufactures have resorted to secret airfoils, exotic construction and obscure materials to market their designs as "better than all others".

When was the last time anyone saw a real plan for a real F3A ship? In my case about 20 years ago for a Checkmate but I don't think that design had ever won anything inportant in Australia.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Touché there BJR, even in big mags like RCM, I think they last one I saw was a loaded dice.

You know it's funny you should mention that, I remember either hearing or reading that Prettner used to regularly give plans to MAN, to get everyone flying his aircarft, get used to the way they looked, and also, just maybe, increase the "halo effect" around him.

I think that still happens, who remembers judge #10?! hehehe.

The designs of F3A aircraft have nowadays become a bit of a guarded commodity and due to the rules being ***** backwards, we HAVE to pay extra for a competitive aircraft. Oh and when I say competitive, I'm not talking design just yet, this is just to make weight!

I can't help but feel that we've painted ourselves into a corner, and the way out presently is with $$$$$$....

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Jeff Carder will happily give you plans for his Lightning. While not 'easy' to build, it is certainly doable if you have the skills. I'm in the middle of cutting parts out to start building mine.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Thanks for the info, Doug.
Chris...

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I got into pattern some years ago knowing full well I would not be flying the latest of equipment. I'm sure some realize this and perhaps just don't pursue pattern. I'm stubborn, so I designed my own plane and flew it. I learned to fly better and design better and continued enjoying pattern on a budget. Pattern is whatever you want it to be based on the amount of time, money, and effort you have available to enjoy it to some degree. Some of my own designs are available for free, including some short-kit laser files. However, some others are not, due to the greater degree of sweat involved in designing, refining, and in some cases it is simply difficult to make detailed plans with very high parts counts (think of all the full size templates for a laser kit..:).

I know Jeff's Lightning for one is one heck of a great flying and great looking airplane, and so are some other plan-based F3A planes.

Everyone would like a Lexus in their driveway, but once in a while you see an old rebuilt (in their own garage) rx-7 racer that cleans everyones clock at the weekend autocross and personally, that makes me smile.

Best Regards,
Mark

-Join the NSRCA, it's good for you and pattern :)

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hello,

Flying Models published the Option 120 back in 2007, I do not recall what month however, but that could be an option for those who like to build.

Teo

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Years ago, a friend of mine owned and operated a 'speed' shop which primarily focused on building cars and engines, but would work on anything from snowmobile engines to boat outboards. There was a sign in the shop which summed it up pretty nicely:

SPEED COSTS. HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO?

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hi Guys,

I'm a glider guider looking at getting into precision flying.

I appreciate all the info in this thread, thanks!

I have to say I can't agree about the volume argument for F3A cost though. Our competition gliders are made in 10's not hundreds. They are fully moulded out of alloy molds and use the most expensive carbon etc etc for absolute minimum weight. They cost about half what an F3A airframe costs and there's more airframe at 3.5-3.8m span too.

It does look like 'F3A' means 'Double the price'.

I'll start with a smaller airframe and decide on a larger one when i have enough experience to know where I'm going and what I need to get there.

Love the way these planes fly - they are so graceful :)

Go Great!

Ken.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

.
The high prices are mainly to keep the "riff-raff" out . . .
.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Zsss, that is supposed to be a secret!! :D

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Osiris looks like an AWESOME way to get into pattern. Under $400. I just watched their video detailing the assembly and beginning pattern flying.

Sebart Wind 110 is very competitive, slightly larger and more expensive than the Osiris. Right around $600.

Venus II was a touch under $300. It's a heavier plane (though built very strong), has a basic sport airfoil, flat, glued in stabilizers - definitely not designed specifically for F3A flying. This plane was supported by one of the biggest retailers in the business and thus was made in enormous volumes. So, little effort into design (comparatively) and mass production. For an extra $100, you get a plane designed by F3A pilots (Osiris) that basically comes put together out of the box (3hrs build time), and is extremely capable.

Osiris and Wind are designed by top level F3A pilots. A design is made, a deal made to have the plane assembled... then the plane is tested, modifications made, second batch of planes is made... and how many of these planes are sold? A few hundred? A lot of effort goes into these planes by a small group of people. They have to charge to make it worth their time.

Granted I know next to nothing about the composite stuff, but there the market is smaller, the plane is bigger, and the process more advanced. Sounds like $$$ to me.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I'm still waiting for the first pattern plane manufacturer coming up to an event driving a nice Porsche (or equivalent)....

This is just a silly discussion. As mentioned before: you want speed, you have to spend. That was a nice analogy.

Volkert


EDIT: for better wording..

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Yeah, but WHY do you have to spend if you want speed.

My Yamaha TZ250 GP bike is speed but it's parts pricing is all over the place. Some parts cheaper than the road equivalent some parts dearer.

Silliest parts pricing was the chain adjusters, left hand side was about $34 the right hand side was about $134. They were idendical in all respects except the left one ($100 cheaper) had one MORE machining operation which made it unusable on the right hand side. They charge $100 more NOT to machine a certain bit of metal off it??

Same with cars, with driver side door handle prices compared to passenger side prices. The driver side door hand must be faster and have more performance eh???

No one is arguing that F3A makers are turning huge profits, but the F3A stamp certainly adds a premium to the price (no difference to designer label clothes manufactured in China or Peru I suppose).

Performance costs money is true, but it doesn't fully explain why.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

This is not too far fetched, considering some of these guys have really good "day jobs". Years ago the local hobby shop I hung out at had a poster showing a hobo with the napsac on a stick. The caption said "I made mine in the hobby business". This hs owner was a retired engineer, who was not relying on it for support.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

typo

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

The Porsche event has allready taken place. Who remembers PL-production.:D

Anders J

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

This now even got better; Lorenz now offers a stickerset for about 50€. Have a look at the pictures. Now you don't need to paint the model any more. I think it is a great deal!

Volkert

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hey Chris,
Check out the Lightning build thread too. It's very well done, informative, and you might be inspired to do it. The plane might not be as competitive as the latest design in a few years, but I'm out for the ride more than a top three trophy anyhow. I'm with you on the "building" one too. You can always try to grab a 4-sale one too, but be picky.
Hook

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

The answer is quite simple if you want a plane to fly in masters class or you are a pro class pilot you got to spend atleast 2000$ & up for a good plane... OR the other option is you can buy some cheat 2x2 F3A planes available in the market. What you pay is what you get. Pattern planes are precession aerobatic planes built with great care & time taken is more compared to those giant scale planes. Try building one F3A 2x2 you will automatically get the answer...

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Umm....black magic...lightning.....pentathlon.

Both black magic and pentathlon kit cost under 800 bucks.



Both black magic competed successfully in masters and fai.



Chuck

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Chuck,

Unfortunately the Black Magic kits are no longer available...and I know on the V3's that you would spend an additional 300-400 minimum for sheeting and hardware. Still cheaper than a lot of ARF's, but a lot of work.

Also, the Lightning Jeff is building is more than competitive with anything out there. I watched Jeff fly his old one last fall and it flies awesome and the one will fly even better.

Arch

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

In this economic environment I think we would find more people willing to build if they had the skills to do it. If there were a few good videos for building a precision airframe out there I'd tackle one myself. Unfortunately, building Sig 4Star 40 kits and the like, hasn't really taught me the skills needed to properly build something like a pattern plane.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Actually it has, just not quickly. It doesn't take anything more than basic building skills to build an all-wood/foam airplane like Jeff's. There are a couple good books out there I think on 'building a pattern airplane' and plenty of information in Jeff's thread on the Lightning. I wish I could remember the name of the book.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Between what you learned just building sport kits and what you can pick up in the build threads here you can build a pattern plane and have it come out well.
Will it be the best it can be your first time out, no. Will the second and the third be even better, yes. Just like everything else we do, it is a learned skill and will be honed the more you do it.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I really wonder if building yourself is so much cheaper. Not only do you need the materials but also tools etc.

I think the only reason to build yourself is the satisfaction you derive from it, both the process and when you point that plane into the wind first time.

Just my 2c, of course!

Volkert