just wanted to see what you guys think on the cost of pattern plane kits.

i love pattern planes but it sure seem's to me thatthey just cost to much i may be wrong.

wheter a kit or arf they are price a lot higher than a regular plane. cap's, extra's, giles and so on.
for example some years back i built a midwest cap232 27%. the kit cost me 200.00.
i was looking at f3a pattern plane kits back then and they were 4 to 5 times or more expensive
the pattern plane kits i was looking at have less wood ect. the same is true today.
is all the cost of the kit going to the desiner/plans maker?

i dont wantto cause a flame war overthis but just would like to know your opions
thank you

As someone that used to kit a pattern plane (Nemesis and Arch Nemesis back in the late 90's) I can speak to this a little bit. There are several issues. First is that a true "Kit" is not that much more expensive. Last real kit that was being sold was Mike Hesters Black Magic kits and those were about $600. That included a lot of Carbon Fiber parts that were expensive to make (I seem to recall that the carbon canopy had $50+ in materials alone) Even still, that's probably 50% higher than a similar wood kit might cost from Great Planes or Midwest. The problem there is volume. A good pattern plane might sell 100 kits over a several year period. A great one...a few hundred. In it's day, the Goldberg Ultimate sold tens of thousands of kit...annually. Not only is the market for a pattern plane extremely small compared to a sport plane, but the number of styles and designs is very high and constantly changing. A pattern plane might have a 2-3 year run before it's obsolete with rare exception.

The volume issue is huge when it comes to cost. The designers ability to recover a LOT of time in R&D getting a new design ready is very low. The ability to use high volume low cost manufacturing techniques is also very limited.

Lastly, the pattern plane community is extremely finicky and demanding about the percision of a kit and resulting plane which also increases the price.

Bottom line is that the pattern kit makers are not making a fortune. Unfortunately because of that, there are very few "Kits" even being offered. Everything now is in ARF form coming from overseas.

OK
i see what your are saying. thereis a pattern plane i would love to have it's a dr. jekyll 2. i talk to someone on here that bought out the operation from the kit builder. i believe it had a fiber glass fuse. i wouldn't mind spending a litte ore to get thid plane.. i have to wait till he gets every thing setup. and makes a few to sell.
i seen this pattern bipe for sale and i will use this as my example of a highcost kit.the cost is throught the roof on this kit. http://www.insightrc.com/insightrc-H...-orderpg1.html

do you think that this is over priced.?
thanks

Not if you think in terms of a business trying to make ANYmoney. Again, think about the market size. Bipes make up less than 5% of the pattern planes out there, so instead of selling 100, they'll be lucky to sell 10 or 20. Now think about the hours involved with creating cad cutting drawings for all 740 laser cut parts mentioned. You're talking a LOTof man hours... 1000's. Not including design, building, test flying, redesign, etc. Do that even at minumum wage and you have a very large investment to recover in 10 - 20 sales. Point is you CAN'T recover it. Any one doing this at this level is doing it for the love of the hobby and hoping to make enough money to keep their hobby alive.

Is the actual "Cost" of the finished kit valued that high?? No... But you can't assume all the labor to design and create the first kit is free.

A significant reason for the cost of the Harmony is that it is a bipe. Therefore there is more wood and such in the kit and it has to be ULTRA light contest balsa to have a shot at making weight. Also, everything Mark does is laser cut and are great quality. I know Mark well enough to know that he isnt the type to rip anyone off. My guess is that he isn't make much per kit on that plane,

Arch

I agree the bipe kit just looks amazing. i dont belive i have ever seen a kit that was that well done.
i just dont have that type of money. LOL

I honestly think Mark Atwood covered the answer to your question very well, pattern planes are expensive, and the competitive designed are very limited in quantity.

The Harmony is very reasonably priced, I don't know if it is very competitive or not, but check this one out,

http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=151

I have the Amethyst mod and it is hands down the best pattern plane I ever had, I have an Axiome, Osmose Evo and other planes, the technology on this planes cost money and if you want to be competitive it cost that much.

emilsanto, you are not alone in your thoughts about the price, many people ask why a pattern biplane cost 30% RTF compared to a Carf YAK 3.3 Meters with a DA170, but that's the way it is and has been.

The Finesse from Carl Goldberg used to cost over $600 and it only had the fiberglass fuse, foam cores and the wing tubes, that was it! This also pay for the way and quality of the aircraft flight.

Best regards

Thanks for the link in your post.
i did find a kit in my price range that i like a CA Model Passport - Kit
pretty good price. if anyone knows of this kit can you give me some feedback on it.
opions ect.

Iall ways wanted a nice pattern plane that wouldn't kill me in cost of the kit..
i dont want to compete in contests just want a great flying pattern plane.

thanks guys

Search for "Camodel onas build" in this forum, step by step with lots of pictures of the built. I think the Passport is one of the most popular current models and a terrific flyer.

Regards

Alejandro P.

I am the proud owner of Harmony prototype kit number 2.

What you are also not considering in the Harmony Kit price is the wing jig that is laser cut to ensure proper alignment, and also the fuse jig, the stab jigs vertical and horizontal. the kit also comes with the sheeting laser cut for the wings for proper alignment etc.

I can tell you that if you are looking for a kit the Pentathlon is a great kit and goes together easily. I have yet to see a Pentathlon not make weight with any power system.

There are passport build threads in the Electric section from Todd Blose I believe.

Good luck and welcome to pattern!

Chuck Hochhalter
Insight RC V2
Pentathalon V1
Pentathlon V2
Pentathlon EVO
Harmony Proto 2

If you don't want to compete, may I suggest you try to get a Genesis 3D kit? I don't know if it is possible to get, maybe Netbox Hobbies in Miami. It is the same Genesis F3A fuselage, it just has different wings and stabs, and you could fly freestyle aerobatics and pattern practice. Try contacting Camodel also direct if you are interested. www.camodel.com.ar

Regards

Alejandro P.

The bit that irks me is not just the high cost of decent F3A pattern plane (which I think limits the volume because it becomes a chequebook game)  but also the way the schedulesare changed every 2 years effectively making a just about sorted plane obsolete! he pattern fraternity is really shooting itself in the foot with these ridiculous high cost aircraft which tell you only 50% of the skill picture. pattern aerobatics and F3A in particular needs to get its head out of the sand and back to some form of basics. For a start the maximum weight rule is just daft. There should be a minimum weight rule.

Hello,

I just wanted to mention that NetBox Hobby is no longer in business. As suggested previously, I had also considered getting the Genesis kit when they were 600 dollars. I believe that CA Model had issues with NetBox hobbies as their US distributor.

Teo

Going to probably get burned here but....


In the US, I believe that a pilot can fly any design from the last 5 years and win. I do not care what plane you fly, wrong rudder with hurt you more than an older design.

There are many options out there and if you dont mind building from plans or laser kits, the cost can be kept to a minimum.

I competed in intermediate at NATS and got 3rd... my plane did not hurt me and it was totally scratch built and the only contest grade balsa used was on the wings.

I then competed at NATS and got 3rd in advanced. This time i used a laser kit and built my plane. Yes, this takes time but you have to decide, time or money. For me the answer is rather simple....

I can wait to purchase a used airframe with a season or two under its belt from a respected pilot who is known to take care of his equipment ( ie Glen Watson, Earl Haury etc and others in D6)

I am currently building a Pentathlon Evo... I just got a Harmony (prototype version) flying and still trimming, and I am also throwing together a practice plane with an OS 140 so I can just burn fuel economically and get stick time.

Chuck Hochhalter

I have to agree with Chuck on this one. With the exception of the most recent FAI F3A schedules which require the aircraft to snap brilliently, and also have significant knife edge capabilities, ANYof the last 10 years designs could win any of the other classes. We all like new things so there are constantly new designs and new styles coming out. But there's a huge difference between technical obsolescence and functional obsolescence.

The Comp Arf Integral is a great example. That's a 7 year old design that flew well in the FAI finals last year at the nats (way to go Peter!).

I am having a hard time finding web sites that sell pattern kits. can you guys list some ofthe pages you like that sell kits
thanks again

if you want incredible value for money you should check out the webpages of Lorenz in Germany. They now sell the Gaudius-RF and especially the Elexant-RF.

http://www.f3alorenz.homepage.t-onli...x-home-f3a.htm

It is in German but check out the webpage. Maybe they can also come to the USA by F3A Unlimited.

This is a 699€ kit. That is still a lot of money but again it is about the value you get.

Volkert

Well I'm about to maiden a CMpro Swallow which I will hope to compete in the Sportsmans class. Its adequte for the job but the aim is to get too F3A in a few years but when I look at the planes needed to compete at that level and the cost, its quite intimidating.
Its not like theres millions of Dollars to be made in this game but it seems you could end up spending a good $5000 on a competitive platform and in reality you probably need 2. That just seems like a cheque book game.
I accept that a good 2nd hand plane will do the job but from when I'm staring at the sun, it appears designing and building my own plane will be the only way to go.
Its a shame because the rest of the hobby seems to have woken up and realised that volume is needed to keep it alive.

TimBle, good to see you will start now. I hope you really enjoy it! You might get hooked!

If you will get to F3A you will fly a lot. Pattern flying is safe. Incidents do happen but if you look at some friends that enjoy helicopters or 3D planes, you will see them consume many planes while you are still flying that one F3A plane and getting better all the time.

Also, don't buy that expensive plane too early. Buy it when you are ready for it. Until then slowly build up your expertise by flying a lot and learning to trim your airplane. It is burning nitro (or electrons nowadays) that will get you there, not an expensive plane.

If for a next plane you would buy a Sebart 110 with a HongKong setup (see threads for info) you would be surprised how far you can get. I am pretty sure if you would give that plane to your current national champion, he would also win the contests.

Volkert

F3A Unlimited should take a closer look at these offerings. Pricing seems better than some other things available, the Euro/US$ exchange rate notwithstanding. Does the quality compete well with the others?

The 699 Euro price tag for the Elexant is about 1000$ US. That's very reasonable for what they give you.

It is great quality AND they are light which leaves oppertunity for less expensive motor/battery combinations. Have a look at the Gaudius thread in the Electric Pattern Forum.

Volkert

<span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #3366ff">Im not looking for electric planes just glow/gas. trying to find links to kits like i said earlier
thanks</span></span>

Please check out the Pentathlon EVO and also the Insight.

The beauty about the Insight is that if you do not like the angular top and bottom, you can make your own turtle deck easily and bottom as well, but the squared fuse is all laser cut.

www.insightrc.com

I honestly do not know of any kits other than F3a unlimited and all those have glass fuse and foam wings but cost is double.

Chuck Hochhalter

The high cost has driven me to build my own from scratch. If it were not for the fact that I consider building to be a hobby in and of itself, I would not bother. I have paid the price in hours spent. I can attest to what others above have said about the cost of development. If you count the hours spent designing the laser cut parts, and multiply it by the hourly rate I get paid for doing it for commercial buildings, those CAD files would be worth at least 5k, and probably closer to $10k.

I had a couple of insight laser sets around and decided to build me a practice plane. this plane is not totally designed to be a perfect flyer, but rather there for me to put numerous flights on in any wind condition and teach me to make the proper heading, wings level etc corrections.

It is going to under 10 lbs I believe and powered by OS 140.

Thanks.


Chuck Hochhalter