Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

just wanted to see what you guys think on the cost of pattern plane kits.

i love pattern planes but it sure seem's to me thatthey just cost to much i may be wrong.

wheter a kit or arf they are price a lot higher than a regular plane. cap's, extra's, giles and so on.
for example some years back i built a midwest cap232 27%. the kit cost me 200.00.
i was looking at f3a pattern plane kits back then and they were 4 to 5 times or more expensive
the pattern plane kits i was looking at have less wood ect. the same is true today.
is all the cost of the kit going to the desiner/plans maker?

i dont wantto cause a flame war overthis but just would like to know your opions
thank you
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../msn/71_71.gif

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

As someone that used to kit a pattern plane (Nemesis and Arch Nemesis back in the late 90's) I can speak to this a little bit. There are several issues. First is that a true "Kit" is not that much more expensive. Last real kit that was being sold was Mike Hesters Black Magic kits and those were about $600. That included a lot of Carbon Fiber parts that were expensive to make (I seem to recall that the carbon canopy had $50+ in materials alone) Even still, that's probably 50% higher than a similar wood kit might cost from Great Planes or Midwest. The problem there is volume. A good pattern plane might sell 100 kits over a several year period. A great one...a few hundred. In it's day, the Goldberg Ultimate sold tens of thousands of kit...annually. Not only is the market for a pattern plane extremely small compared to a sport plane, but the number of styles and designs is very high and constantly changing. A pattern plane might have a 2-3 year run before it's obsolete with rare exception.

The volume issue is huge when it comes to cost. The designers ability to recover a LOT of time in R&D getting a new design ready is very low. The ability to use high volume low cost manufacturing techniques is also very limited.

Lastly, the pattern plane community is extremely finicky and demanding about the percision of a kit and resulting plane which also increases the price.

Bottom line is that the pattern kit makers are not making a fortune. Unfortunately because of that, there are very few "Kits" even being offered. Everything now is in ARF form coming from overseas.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

OK
i see what your are saying. thereis a pattern plane i would love to have it's a dr. jekyll 2. i talk to someone on here that bought out the operation from the kit builder. i believe it had a fiber glass fuse. i wouldn't mind spending a litte ore to get thid plane.. i have to wait till he gets every thing setup. and makes a few to sell.
i seen this pattern bipe for sale and i will use this as my example of a highcost kit.the cost is throught the roof on this kit. http://www.insightrc.com/insightrc-H...-orderpg1.html

do you think that this is over priced.?
thanks

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Not if you think in terms of a business trying to make ANYmoney. Again, think about the market size. Bipes make up less than 5% of the pattern planes out there, so instead of selling 100, they'll be lucky to sell 10 or 20. Now think about the hours involved with creating cad cutting drawings for all 740 laser cut parts mentioned. You're talking a LOTof man hours... 1000's. Not including design, building, test flying, redesign, etc. Do that even at minumum wage and you have a very large investment to recover in 10 - 20 sales. Point is you CAN'T recover it. Any one doing this at this level is doing it for the love of the hobby and hoping to make enough money to keep their hobby alive.

Is the actual "Cost" of the finished kit valued that high?? No... But you can't assume all the labor to design and create the first kit is free.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

A significant reason for the cost of the Harmony is that it is a bipe. Therefore there is more wood and such in the kit and it has to be ULTRA light contest balsa to have a shot at making weight. Also, everything Mark does is laser cut and are great quality. I know Mark well enough to know that he isnt the type to rip anyone off. My guess is that he isn't make much per kit on that plane,

Arch

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I agree the bipe kit just looks amazing. i dont belive i have ever seen a kit that was that well done.
i just dont have that type of money. LOL

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I honestly think Mark Atwood covered the answer to your question very well, pattern planes are expensive, and the competitive designed are very limited in quantity.

The Harmony is very reasonably priced, I don't know if it is very competitive or not, but check this one out,

http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=151

I have the Amethyst mod and it is hands down the best pattern plane I ever had, I have an Axiome, Osmose Evo and other planes, the technology on this planes cost money and if you want to be competitive it cost that much.

emilsanto, you are not alone in your thoughts about the price, many people ask why a pattern biplane cost 30% RTF compared to a Carf YAK 3.3 Meters with a DA170, but that's the way it is and has been.

The Finesse from Carl Goldberg used to cost over $600 and it only had the fiberglass fuse, foam cores and the wing tubes, that was it! This also pay for the way and quality of the aircraft flight.

Best regards

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Thanks for the link in your post.
i did find a kit in my price range that i like a CA Model Passport - Kit
pretty good price. if anyone knows of this kit can you give me some feedback on it.
opions ect.

Iall ways wanted a nice pattern plane that wouldn't kill me in cost of the kit..
i dont want to compete in contests just want a great flying pattern plane.

thanks guys

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Search for "Camodel onas build" in this forum, step by step with lots of pictures of the built. I think the Passport is one of the most popular current models and a terrific flyer.

Regards

Alejandro P.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I am the proud owner of Harmony prototype kit number 2.

What you are also not considering in the Harmony Kit price is the wing jig that is laser cut to ensure proper alignment, and also the fuse jig, the stab jigs vertical and horizontal. the kit also comes with the sheeting laser cut for the wings for proper alignment etc.

I can tell you that if you are looking for a kit the Pentathlon is a great kit and goes together easily. I have yet to see a Pentathlon not make weight with any power system.

There are passport build threads in the Electric section from Todd Blose I believe.

Good luck and welcome to pattern!

Chuck Hochhalter
Insight RC V2
Pentathalon V1
Pentathlon V2
Pentathlon EVO
Harmony Proto 2
:D

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

If you don't want to compete, may I suggest you try to get a Genesis 3D kit? I don't know if it is possible to get, maybe Netbox Hobbies in Miami. It is the same Genesis F3A fuselage, it just has different wings and stabs, and you could fly freestyle aerobatics and pattern practice. Try contacting Camodel also direct if you are interested. www.camodel.com.ar

Regards

Alejandro P.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

The bit that irks me is not just the high cost of decent F3A pattern plane (which I think limits the volume because it becomes a chequebook game)  but also the way the schedulesare changed every 2 years effectively making a just about sorted plane obsolete! he pattern fraternity is really shooting itself in the foot with these ridiculous high cost aircraft which tell you only 50% of the skill picture. pattern aerobatics and F3A in particular needs to get its head out of the sand and back to some form of basics. For a start the maximum weight rule is just daft. There should be a minimum weight rule.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hello,

I just wanted to mention that NetBox Hobby is no longer in business. As suggested previously, I had also considered getting the Genesis kit when they were 600 dollars. I believe that CA Model had issues with NetBox hobbies as their US distributor.

Teo

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Going to probably get burned here but....


In the US, I believe that a pilot can fly any design from the last 5 years and win. I do not care what plane you fly, wrong rudder with hurt you more than an older design.

There are many options out there and if you dont mind building from plans or laser kits, the cost can be kept to a minimum.

I competed in intermediate at NATS and got 3rd... my plane did not hurt me and it was totally scratch built and the only contest grade balsa used was on the wings.

I then competed at NATS and got 3rd in advanced. This time i used a laser kit and built my plane. Yes, this takes time but you have to decide, time or money. For me the answer is rather simple....

I can wait to purchase a used airframe with a season or two under its belt from a respected pilot who is known to take care of his equipment ( ie Glen Watson, Earl Haury etc and others in D6)

I am currently building a Pentathlon Evo... I just got a Harmony (prototype version) flying and still trimming, and I am also throwing together a practice plane with an OS 140 so I can just burn fuel economically and get stick time.

Chuck Hochhalter

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I have to agree with Chuck on this one. With the exception of the most recent FAI F3A schedules which require the aircraft to snap brilliently, and also have significant knife edge capabilities, ANYof the last 10 years designs could win any of the other classes. We all like new things so there are constantly new designs and new styles coming out. But there's a huge difference between technical obsolescence and functional obsolescence.

The Comp Arf Integral is a great example. That's a 7 year old design that flew well in the FAI finals last year at the nats (way to go Peter!).

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I am having a hard time finding web sites that sell pattern kits. can you guys list some ofthe pages you like that sell kits
thanks again

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

if you want incredible value for money you should check out the webpages of Lorenz in Germany. They now sell the Gaudius-RF and especially the Elexant-RF.

http://www.f3alorenz.homepage.t-onli...x-home-f3a.htm

It is in German but check out the webpage. Maybe they can also come to the USA by F3A Unlimited.

This is a 699€ kit. That is still a lot of money but again it is about the value you get.

Volkert

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Well I'm about to maiden a CMpro Swallow which I will hope to compete in the Sportsmans class. Its adequte for the job but the aim is to get too F3A in a few years but when I look at the planes needed to compete at that level and the cost, its quite intimidating.
Its not like theres millions of Dollars to be made in this game but it seems you could end up spending a good $5000 on a competitive platform and in reality you probably need 2. That just seems like a cheque book game.
I accept that a good 2nd hand plane will do the job but from when I'm staring at the sun, it appears designing and building my own plane will be the only way to go.
Its a shame because the rest of the hobby seems to have woken up and realised that volume is needed to keep it alive.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

TimBle, good to see you will start now. I hope you really enjoy it! You might get hooked!

If you will get to F3A you will fly a lot. Pattern flying is safe. Incidents do happen but if you look at some friends that enjoy helicopters or 3D planes, you will see them consume many planes while you are still flying that one F3A plane and getting better all the time.

Also, don't buy that expensive plane too early. Buy it when you are ready for it. Until then slowly build up your expertise by flying a lot and learning to trim your airplane. It is burning nitro (or electrons nowadays) that will get you there, not an expensive plane.

If for a next plane you would buy a Sebart 110 with a HongKong setup (see threads for info) you would be surprised how far you can get. I am pretty sure if you would give that plane to your current national champion, he would also win the contests.

Volkert

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

F3A Unlimited should take a closer look at these offerings. Pricing seems better than some other things available, the Euro/US$ exchange rate notwithstanding. Does the quality compete well with the others?

The 699 Euro price tag for the Elexant is about 1000$ US. That's very reasonable for what they give you.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

It is great quality AND they are light which leaves oppertunity for less expensive motor/battery combinations. Have a look at the Gaudius thread in the Electric Pattern Forum.

Volkert

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

<span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #3366ff">Im not looking for electric planes just glow/gas. trying to find links to kits like i said earlier
thanks</span></span>

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Please check out the Pentathlon EVO and also the Insight.

The beauty about the Insight is that if you do not like the angular top and bottom, you can make your own turtle deck easily and bottom as well, but the squared fuse is all laser cut.

www.insightrc.com

I honestly do not know of any kits other than F3a unlimited and all those have glass fuse and foam wings but cost is double.

Chuck Hochhalter

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

The high cost has driven me to build my own from scratch. If it were not for the fact that I consider building to be a hobby in and of itself, I would not bother. I have paid the price in hours spent. I can attest to what others above have said about the cost of development. If you count the hours spent designing the laser cut parts, and multiply it by the hourly rate I get paid for doing it for commercial buildings, those CAD files would be worth at least 5k, and probably closer to $10k.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I had a couple of insight laser sets around and decided to build me a practice plane. this plane is not totally designed to be a perfect flyer, but rather there for me to put numerous flights on in any wind condition and teach me to make the proper heading, wings level etc corrections.

It is going to under 10 lbs I believe and powered by OS 140.

Thanks.


Chuck Hochhalter

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I glad to see that other people have been thinking about the Insight. I like to build and although I am not crazy about its rather angular looks, altering the turtle deck to give a more rounded look would be a relatively simple change. I was also thinking about modifying the fin/rudder outline to make a little more pleasing to me. I agree that there aren't many choices available, but I look at the Insight kit as giving me a solid starting point from which to build on.

As an aside, last year was my first year flying pattern and from what I can see, you do not need to have the greatest and latest to compete in the lower classes. I flew an Angel 50 and I did not feel at a disadvantage (in Sportman). Actually, my last contest of the season was won by someone flying a Venus .40. I may have had a better plane but he was definitely a better pilot. I will be flying intermediate this year and although I would love to have a "real pattern plane" (aka 2M), my flying skills do not justify sinking so much money into a single plane. I would probably be better off having a good backup plane. My Angel has seen its life flash in front of it more than once while trying to fly the intermediate sequence.

Teo

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I encourage you to consider the Insight. Check out the friends page on marks site and you can see the different versions.

I added 1 inch to the bottom of the side of my fuse and it really brought the plane alive.

The insight is the Ugly Stick of pattern, you can do with it what you like and marks wing, tail, moments all work well for most classes.

Chuck

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I thought they cost so much because some of us would pay that amount!! :D

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

this kit looks pretty nice. it has a dorsal fin thought.? in one pic it shows a t shaped dorsal fin.?
<span class="text"><u><font color="#ff0000" size="6" face="Swis721 Blk BT"><span style="line-height: 44px; font-size: 36px">PENTATHLON EVO<br soft="" />
http://www.insightrc.com/Evo-orderpg1.html</span></font></u></span>

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Many are using extra appendages on their models nowadays. The vertical extra fins near the aerodynamic center enhance performance in yaw. Build it as the designer intended and you won't go wrong

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

It's hard to believe that there's room in the market for another el-cheapo, no-name, 50cc sized ARF Yak/Extra but no market for a non-scale plane that's built well and actually flies properly.

However while I have never owned one, a bloke in our club has an Excelleron 90 with a 120AX in it. The owner isn't a pattern flyer and I doubt it's trimmed properly but it just seems to "sit" well in the air. I can't comment on it's construction or weight and I don't know how hard he's working on the sticks but from the moment it takes off it just looks planted in the sky and doesn't bounce around or have any nervousness about it. You know how F3A ships just look and sit different in the sky, well this looks very similiar.

If I didn't have too many planes, I'd buy one for my 140RX just to see if it really does fly as good as it seems to be flying. It may have horrible control coupling for all I know but if it does, the owner is doing a very good job of hiding it.

Brett

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I've had a crack at the excelleron 50, and it was a pretty capable ship. I'd assume the 90 would be much the same.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I've had an Excelleron 90 for years and it is very stable and a lot of fun to just fly around, practice new manuevers, etc. I have a YS 140FZ in mine, I added about 3/32 to the trailing edge to increase the incidence and added tip plates similar to a passport. It's very easily mixed for knifeedge and verticals. Added a block to the gear plate to increase the gear length for the 140 prop.
I don't believe they are available in the US anymore and maybe not manufactured. Its too bad. I feel this is a much better plane for aerobatics than the Venuses and other plane in this category. It will do a credible job of P11.
I don't remember what I paid for mine 6 years ago but it was probably about 150. If one were available today, I expect it would be under 300. Brett, are they still available in Australia?

John

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hi John,

I asked the bloke the other day and he reckons they are still available. I googled around and it seems $330-$400 is the going rate but I didn't ring anyone to confirm prices and availability.

My Mum, just brought around the last of Dad's planes (100" Curare with Zenoah G-62 (150%), built in '92) on the weekend and I have officially run out of room in the house and in the shed so if I get another plane my GF will hurt me.

As for why they can be comparatively expensive, if it's a recognised design regardless of the manufacturer then I'd bet there's a licence fee or royalties involved.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

I don't know if you are looking for an ARF pattern plane or a kit, but if a kit is an option, then there are some reasonably priced kits available here: <a href="http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/index.htm">http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/index.htm
</a>
-Mike

<br type="_moz" />

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Did the Curare ever fly? I recall seeing a photo of one many years ago in the Kfactor... was this the plane?

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Hello,

Another option to consider would be Eureka Aircraft, they have kits for the Curare and Tiporare. I believe that scaled up versions of the Tipo are available. I am currently building a baby version of the Curare to use a park flyer. It probably won't fly as well as a current pattern plane, but it should be a pretty decent sport plane.

Teo

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

Ignorance is bliss

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

<span style="color: #3366ff">I dont know about you guys but the yak makes me want to </span><span style="color: #ff0000">yak!. </span><span style="color: #3366ff">i just dont like the looks of the plane at all. but alot of people must there every where</span>.

I am more partial to the <span style="color: #ff0000">G202"S and Caps</span>. and of course <span style="color: #ff0000">pattern </span>planes.

RE: Pattern planes Why do they cost so much
 

post deleted.

Volkert