RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hi Matt,

Just checking to see I'm reading this right...0.2 positive on stab and 0.3 positive on the wing is 0.1 positive relative from the wing to the stab? That's surprising as it's quite different from what others have on theirs in the electric version, and I'm just curious why that might be? Appreciate your thoughts on this... Cheers.

Ken

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hi Matt,

Is the PTE, or even the OS, fairly user friendly for a first time gasser? Any kind of comparison to an OS 2-stroke glow? Just curious for now...

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Claude,

I've used the same mixture since I re-started flying petrol, just about 3 years ago. Early on I used regular 87 Octane auotomobile gasoline and chainsaw/weedwacker oil at 30:1. Oil was purchased at the local Home Depot. I did that for a couple gallons before switching. Hated the stench of autogas so I looked for an alternative petrol

I met up with long time noted modeler Jersey JimMartin 3 years ago and on his recommendation I switched the oil to BelRay MC-1 motorcycle racing synthetic. Jim is a long time motorcycle racing enthusiast and expert engine mechanic and in fact his son was a racing Champion years ago. Jim knows his engines and better yet, knows the oils that work best....MC-1 works absolutely great.

The DLE55's (2), SAP 30's (2), ZDZ 40, Mintor 38, OS33GT's (2), now the PTE 36R, and the BME58xtreme, have all used the same mixture on Jim's suggestions-Avgas 100LL and MC-1 at 50:1 ratio. The oil comes in 12.8 oz bottles which produce the desired 50:1 mix when mixed with 5 gallons petrol. It's likely that in Europe the packaging is different since you guys are dealing with liters, thereforemaking ratios easy .

EDIT....forgot to mention that I use the same fuel for break in as well as after break in. Nobody has shown tangible data that one type of mix is better at break in over another. And since my engines simply run and run, there's nopoint in changing this process...

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Ken,

Don't really know what others have done, sorry. I don't follow anyone's set-ups since I can't be certain of how they make their measurements. I make mine on agranite top with a height gauge and make my measurements in 0.001" increments. It's way overkill but in the end I know whatIhave, with precision and accuracy.

Electric, glow, gas, rubber bands,doesn't matter one bit. My Vanquish has zero down/up thrust, 2 degrees right and could use a bit more, +0.3 on wing (no offset between left and right panels) and +0.2 approximately on the stab. I say approximately because it was a quick reset of the adjusters at the field on the first day out. It's approximately15 thousandths positive at the stab LE (about 1/64") but I have not rechecked with the height gauge. One should understand that 0.015" on the LE is actually 0.03" over the root span of the stab which I think is 11". You may want to do the trig........

Inverted flight cleaned up nicely after the stab adjustment. With proper amount of toprudder there is hardly a hint of movement in knife edge. When lots of rudder was applied there was a slight tuck to belly but then again I was well into a knife edge loop

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

OS is the better choice by far but to make a transition from glow or other, a Dynatron or other really hi tork startermakes life simpler. I've run most glow set-ups, 2 stroke and4 stroke, for many many years before the switch to gas. Today's gas set-ups are simpler and more user friendly, much more reliable,much much more powerful than the 2 stroke glows we ran in the past and sound the same when soft mounted and propped properly on pipes. Weight is 20% higher on the engine/CDI only, all else is the same pretty much. The plane will be heavier by about6 ounces over an RX set-up for example, but is a wash over a YS175/CDI

In the case of the OS33, it puts out similar tork to the YS170-175 throughout the throttle curve. Top end favors the OS but we don't really care about that in pattern; they all have more than enough top end power and we just don't fly there. The PTE doesn't compare after 2 hours of operation, eventho it has the edge on cubes. To be fair I am still learning this powerplant and may not have it propped quite right yet.

Vibes to the airframe are about the same as any other well behaved 2 stroke and far less than the 170-175 4 strokes. In fact, I am quite pleased with how this super lightbalsa model is shaking at idle. It shakes far less than my glass/foam Aesthesis. But that's not saying much actually since the glass fuse I used was a Brio fuse. It wasn't that well made.....

That's about it on the important points.....

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hello Matt

Which APC propeller do you advice for DLE 30 ?
It's for a pattern Passion as shown on this picture

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Thanks Matt.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Thanks for your explanation, Matt!

Cheers,
Ken

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

You're both welcome!

Claude, I don't know what kind of load the DLE30 can haul....Everything I've read says to start with something like an 18x8 and break it in first. That's probably a good place to start.

On a canister I would expect the engine to be able to haul a 19x8, maybe a 19x10. You're going to have to experiment....

BTW- I decided to get a DLE35RA and see for myself if that engine is equal to the OS.I believe the rear exhaust header I have on the PTE will be a drop in fit. I will probably fit it into the Vanquish. But that's likely one of next year's projects. Winter is upon us and we actually had snow today...just a dusting but maybe a portend of things to come??

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

What length header did you end up with?

Tony

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hello I am Matt Griffitt

I am a custom Motorcycle builder and ama Pattern flyer . I should be able to build a alum header pipe for less than 20 bucks and a thin walled expansion chamber cheap as well. check out my work at KMF-Industy.com


Matt G

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

I was trying to figure out what my next (non-pattern) plane would be and haven't found it yet, but now I am thinking it will be about the gas experience and am pretty psyched! Will be after I get the Integral up and running of course ;) Thanks again Matt!

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

I'm running a DLE 30 on a Focus 2 with the OS RX pipe and the APC 18.1x10 performs better than the plane did with the RX in it.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

A couple shots of the revised landing gear. 158 grams RTF, painted. Compares pretty wellto any other gear I believe. I have this molded so if anyone is interested in shedding some weight, I am making them available on a limited basis. PM me

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Claude, BTW, where did you get that back-to-center header? It looks very compact and will work fine with the OS33GT. Same exhaust dimensions

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Matt:

Try this site

http://www.f3alorenz.de/index-motoren.htm

I used to get my headers (as well as wing adjusters, control horns, etc) from them for the OS 160's. The quality is very good and I think the performance of the 160 headers was better than the Hatori.

Ed

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hello Matt

I asked my friend but I think this is this piece :
http://www.sdshobby.net/New-Designed...l#.ULsm8tXYyWo

Claude

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Thanks Claude.

I couldn't see if the header alone was available. Do you know if it is?

BTW- we finally put a video together of the gassified Vanquish, http://youtu.be/NvzPkbHACzM
The Mintor aluminum pipe is abit louder than the ESComposites but it appears to work well enoug in developing fair amount of HP. In the video I gave credit to the wrong enginemanufacturer. No the engine is a PTE 36R not an SPE. Apologies for any confusion

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Very nice! I am impressed on how smooth it seemed to run, judging by vibes on airframe....smooth indeed. Keep up the great work and thank you for posting all of your findings for people like me who love this type of experimenting.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

nice video!

not alot of vibes from the engine at all.

is that with or without a nose ring?

tony

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

ello Matt

Great video.
I don't know if the header alone is available.
Claude

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Thank you....The wood airframe definitely helps there. Just a little extra 3/32" wood was all I added to the front bay in the fuselage. I showed that earlier in one of the photos

I don't have a nose ring in the cowlas yet. I haven't seen any issues yet with maintaining flight path. My mount is somewhat stiffer than usual on purpose, to see if I could get away without one, at least for now. As the mount's rubber breaks in, I may have to add a nose ring.

The Mintor aluminum pipe is a little too noisy for my taste. I may change that pipe to the EScomposites 30G or a carbon canisterat some point. The exposed pipe doesn't help there either. I will probably stuff the stinger area with some steel wool to help attenuate some of that noise. The stingeris a bolt-on tube and easily comesoff the Mintor pipe.

I'm looking for the mellow, low toned sound that my OS33GT/ESComposites 40G makes in my Aesthesis. That set-up is very subdued. We've taken some video of that also and hope to have it posted at some point.... I have to give credit to my friend Auggie for assisting with all the videotaking, editing and posting. Thanks Auggie!

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Tony,

Thanks...No nose ring at least not yet. It isn't necessary at this point. Maybe next Spring....If I do that it will need to be a 2 piece affair for this engine. But not all engines need it to be a two piece.

For example, the DLE35RA has the same diameter for the prop drive washer as the case front bearing boss. A 1-piece ring will simply slide in from the front..... Straight forward!!

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

would the nose ring need to attach to the mount, or just screw into the front of the cowl?

tony

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

The nose ring should attach to the cowl. Except the soft mounts may not need the rings.

I will be flying the plane this year withthe DLE35RA up front. I have the set-up readyto go

Tony your mount and coupler are ready too

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Please share your experience with the DLE 35RA compared to the OS Max 33GT. I'm hoping to start a Jeff Carder F3A Lightning which I think will come out about 5 KG. Sure like the idea of a rear exhaust.

Have you any experience with the Hatori #2301 header per http://www.hatori-models.co.jp/HP3/air-e.html ? Vertical offset is 25mm; I like the way they have a gusset bracing the down pipe. BTW, these can be acquired from Richard Sabin, Hatori USA, [email protected] .

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

I use the #2301 header on the OS33 and add a 4 1/2" extension to it. I show the set-up somewhere in the photos

The DLE35RA takes the same header FROMMACS PIPES (and not the hatori 2 piece unit), as used on the 140RX. They also show a new header for the 35; but I have and use the 140RX header on the 35, with opened up mounting holes to M5

The 35RA has enough power for the Vanquish and most any current 2 meter pattern model. It's not as powerful as the OS but the extra power isn't necessary. Personally I prefer the OS but it's your call.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Ed Skorepa of ESComposites sent me several carbon canisters to test and report back. I've got two of them tested so far on the DLE35RA / Vanquish

The last one was incredibly quiet turning an 18.5 x 9.5 wide blade APC. This size prop works pretty well on gas engines that have screwy screw installations. The hub is large enough to allow drilling

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

The prop hub conversion for the DLE35 is great, replacing the screwy screws from the prop shaft, making it a single prop nut assembly again. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../thumbs_up.gif

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Having flown a gallon through the DLE now, I am going to take that comment back.Extra power ofthe right typedoes matter....

The DLE is being run with smaller props and tends to rev a bit more. It just doesn'tdevelop the torque of the OS so it can't turn larger props the way we need. The higher rpm in turn create a bit more speed than desired. That's a big deal in pattern if you want a nice slower, easier to show presentation....Higher speed is the wrong direction

The Vanquish has rather small wings (400 squares each) so they don't help much in slowing the plane down.

Throttle curve adjustments will continue until it feels more comfortable and possibly a bit slower. We'll see how it does after full break in, maybe another couple gallons. It should be able to turn a 20x8

BTW- one of the canisters is working well on the engine.Good quietness with very good transition. I had a different canister on it last week, one intended for the Webra 160, and that one developed too much back pressure making the engine hard to tune. But it was so quiet it was almost whispering.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

I looked at one of those adapters but sent it back whenI realized it weighed twice what the 4 screws did

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hello

Yesterday I saw a pattern equiped with DLE35R with exhaust tuned pipe MVVS.
It's very very powerfull, plane climbs indefinitely. Starting hand, no constraint number of flights or flight time, fuel cheap.
It's awesome.
Claude

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Ihadnt really considered the weight of it. Great point.

So at the moment you feel the OS 33 would be a better choice for a pattern application?

Iwonder, have you thought about installing Frank Bowman rings in the DLE 35? Maybe that might bump up the torque enough ot swing the bit larger props, and slow the speed down?
Maybe you have, and Imissed reading it.

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

The piped OS 33 GT isvery very close topar with the YS170 and 175 regarding torque. Same props, higher rpm on the top end (which means greater top end power than YSs) which we don't really need, but outstanding middle where the YSs have made their bones. Right now I think it is the only one with the right kind of power for top level Pattern. I have not tested RCGF32's but Ed has one and at some point he'll have to give itto me to play with. OS has gotten about everything right in that small package out of the gate. The only way it could be better is if it were rear exhaust.....

I am running a Bowman ring in the DLE. It's a good ring, seals properly,but it can't create power. I am only running a canister on the DLE right now. A pipe is on its way so I'll get apples apples comparison at some point.

Crashed the Vanquish today tho so it's gonna be a while before I get to the pipe experiment. I ran the fool thing outta gas having too much fun. DLE died on the downwind leg on landing and with the strong head wind we had today,VQ had little chance. Crashed it behind the tree line luckily or it would have been a total loss.

The landing gear mounting block snapped into two pieces. Hell, the mounting block is not poorly designed or constructed, as sooo many of the electric guys haveyelled and screamedabout....the problem was me; I'm not supposed to run it outta gas low and slow

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hi Matt,
Would you be kind enough to re-post a link to the thread where you detailed the making of your mount.
I know you put up a link some time ago but I cannot find it and a friend is anxious to look it up.
Thank you.

Brian

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hi Brian,

Take a look here http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_62..._3/key_/tm.htm. Since I wrote this, the main improvements are that I don't use or need the blind nuts to secure the studs any longer. I just add a small ply block behind the studs, thread and epoxy the studs directly to the wood.I use flat heads as studs and chamfer the screw holes to accept the heads for a flush result.

Used to add small pieces of rubber between the fron and back rings to keep the faces from slapping at idle. I started using one of the two velcro sides between the faces and I think it work a little better.

When prepping the rubber I remove rubber surface glaze with a dremmel sanding drum exposing fresh rubber. It really adds to the joint strength between rubber and ply.

Ialso add carbon cloth to both front and back faces, but that's mostly for looks

Good luck and if your friend needs further details, tell him to contact me direct to my address

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hi Matt,
Again thank you.
Yes I/he/we may have one or two questions.

Brian

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Clade,

Which propeller was being run, have you any information?

As far as the right kind of power, the benchmark FORME has always been the YS170-175. Ability to turn YS sized props in mid range with good torque is what I am measuring and comparing against. The only 2 stroke in the size range I am looking in so far with the power curve required is the OS...The OS can be flown slow or fast....that's the bottom line for me. I also have my latest model which will be powered with a DLE55 2 stroke. Now that's power to burn at any throttle setting, but is probably not practical foreveryone and doesn't count as a 2 stroke example......

I don't deny that other two strokes in the 30cc class have the necessary power to go vertical. Point is at what throttle setting and with how much lead? Heck,a couple years ago I proved it with my SAP180 powered model.... was terrific but was missing the low end torque for grunt work and required leading the throttle to get the model vertical with authority. And I definitely made it work

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Hello Matt

Friend of mine uses APC 18,1 x 11.
He told me, DLE35RA is more powerfull than his 170 CDI.
Claude

RE: Let's gasify a Vanquish
 

Claude most if not all the current 30-35cc gas engines will turn this prop well. That should be a good prop for breaking in the 35, but keep in mindthe engine will turn more load especially on pipe. As far as more power than the YS170, I'm not so sure. I will put a pipe on mine soon and see how it behaves, turning the same props as the YS170 does

To me, high revving is not what we want. My SAP180 HP was high revving and it turned this size prop too but it wasn't as easy to fly well, spooling up to well over 8000....

What I've been looking for is a moderate rpm engine with lots of low end tork turning large disc areas and creating lots of thrust at lower rpm. The OS has that.....that's what I'm saying.

But it's great that more and more people are giving this type of powerplant a good look. It's worth a really good look. Just yesterday I saw the price of Cool Power 30% heli blend; $40 US per gallon would make anyone cringe. Pricing elsewhere (OUS) has to be even greater. That'sabout twice asexpensive than running electric batteries on a per flight basis (assume 100 flights per $200 F3AU battery set)