Pattern start
 

Hey guys,

I'm looking for a kit of a pattern plane in the style of like what you see flying in competitions and stuff. You know like the comp arf impact the double vision and pancea, but kit form. Any suggestions would be great.

patterndreamer
(I've been waiting to do tihs for awhile hence the name.)

RE: Pattern start
 

Do you want built up balsa? If so, check out the threads here on the Widebody 60 and the Epsilon, both by Columbo Anderson, available from Pattern Pros-- http://www.patternproz.com/planes%20ca%20model.html. These kits have pre-built balsa sheeted foam flying surfaces, which makes the construction almost foolproof.

Or do you want fiberglass fuselage & foam wings (unsheeted cores)? If so, see Precision Aero Composite-- http://www.precisionaerocomposite.com/

The Columbo Anderson products are very popular, first class designs, first class flyers, reasonably priced. The PAC line includes the classics of yesteryear along with very competitive modern designs. There is a steep learning curve for the first-time builder of this type of kit. The PAC crew are very good at helping you make a choice of kit, advice on building, choosing powerplant, etc.

RE: Pattern start
 

I had thought about CA's aircraft i wanted something fairly affordable and easy to build though. I only have a couple of builds under my belt, and still want this to be a learning experience, but not an expensive one.

RE: Pattern start
 

the wide body 60 is afforable and easy to build heres pic of mine

RE: Pattern start
 

I like CA Models stuff. I have a Widebody 60 and 2 Eclipses. Very good value for the $$

RE: Pattern start
 

i was looking at the eclipse or fantasy.

RE: Pattern start
 

Dreamer, you're not going to get a better value than a CA Widebody. If cost is a consideration, start with the Widebody 40 instead of the 60. If you're ready to spring for the Eclipse or Fantasy, that strikes me as a pretty big leap from having a couple kits under your belt. You seem to be the kind of guy pattern flyers want to meet and help. Do you know any pattern flyers in your area? If not, my advice is to attend a pattern meet or two, see who's flying in Sportsman and Intermediate, see what they're flying, talk to the pilots, ask a lot of questions. With any luck you'll come away with lots of good information and maybe even a coach to help you with building & flying. Also click on http://www.nsrca.org/beginnerA.htm for more tips.

RE: Pattern start
 

A couple points on that. I live in an area dominated by racer, jets, and giant scale. And being 15 doesn't help at all.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

I hear you. I'm an old fogey, and I still have my dreams of models I'd like to build and fly. In the meantime, I build and fly within my means, and have as good a time as when I was flying U-control, back when I was your age. Radio control was primitive then, and nobody at our field knew anything about it. I'm still learning, still trying out new things. The more you stretch for the hobby now, the further it will take you over the years. If I'd had a Widebody 40 to build and fly at fifteen... that would have been terrific. Do what you can. The time and money and learning will come, but you have to chip away at it. I must say it's good to see young people with serious interests.

In the meantime, keep looking for a mentor. I haven't met a pattern flyer yet that didn't want to help get a new recruit into the air.

RE: Pattern start
 

I"m not exactly new into pattern but i am new to serious pattern flying, like competition style. I have a energizer fuse sized to fit on a super kaos wing, and fly alittle pattern with it. It rolls to fast to do precision pattern so i want that one dedicated plane.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

I've been in r/c for only a year now. I'm almost ready to fly my Widebody 40. It is my second kit. It isn't hard if you have built a kit before. It leaves a lot for you to decide on, but I am ending up liking that more than a traditional kit that has more step by step instructions. I think going back to those kinds of kits will be a drag. I plan to buy an Epsilon next and already have a new engine for it.

I think that you should go for the Widebody since you have built more kits that I did. I've flown a friends Widebody 60 and it is an experience over other planes. You are addicted to it in a few seconds! It seems to know what you want to do before you do it.

RE: Pattern start
 

I've been thinking the widebody is the way to go and then later on i can step up to the fantasy or eclipse. Probably go with the .60 since it's more like a full bore comp plane and closer in size. Thanks for the help and I'll post here if i have anymore questions, like setup, etc.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

Majortom, wish that was the way it really is. I have been flying pattern for a year now and it has been a solo effort despite having some big name pattern flyers around here. I am about to quit for lack of encouragement and assistance. The pattern community whines about loss of interest and new people, but can't be bothered to take a serious newcomer under the wing. Good luck Dreamer, it's a closed society, and therefore doomed to die.

RE: Pattern start
 

Xrod,
I think if you ask you'll find most pattern fliers are more than willing to help , but
they won't volunteer information to just anyone , you have to ask.

tommy s

RE: Pattern start
 

Xrod, if that has been your experience, then hackles should be rising in your district. It's true, pattern has declined in numbers over the years, as equipment technology has developed. Undoubtedly there's a connection of some kind between the two trends. But it pains me to think that pattern flyers would turn a cold shoulder to a new guy. Tommy is probably right, that most old hands will wait to be asked rather than volunteering information. My own experience in District 1 has been all the other way. I go to a meet, strike up a conversation with anyone, and helpful suggestions come pouring out. Maybe I have been properly conditioned by having a pattern coach an hour's drive away, retired (like me) so he has time to indulge his generous nature (and he's a Scotchman!). Have you joined NSRCA? Are you on their Discussion List? I see members posting questions and expert answers popping up like mushrooms. Before you give up on pattern, I hope you would join NSRCA if you haven't already, and then get in touch with your District VP and let him know what kind of help you need. If all the many capable pattern flyers in Florida fail to come through for you, then pattern does deserve to die. (Heaven forfend!)

By the way, if there are any pattern wannabe's in my southern NH neighborhood who wanna go fly somewhere, I'd be happy to get a PM from you and see if we can't get together. Not that I am the big expert, but happy to share what I think I know.

RE: Pattern start
 

I have asked for a coach and a mentor. This has not happened. If I ask for help it comes in the form of "your loops aren't round" or things like that. You say that pattern flyers won't just give out information to just anyone. Why not? You have a guy that is flying a pattern plane, flying pattern sequence, and is obviously new and is making mistakes. I just don't get it. I guess part of the problem is that I am active duty military, and they don't want to "waste" time on someone who will eventually move. (To another District) I watch the NSRCA forum, but don't post because they are the "good ol' boys" and I shouldn't intrude without being a member. Why would I want to join? If I did, then would I be able to get coaching and mentoring? Is this the kind of organization that I want to be a part of? I will probably always fly a pattern plane because I love the way they fly. I will always fly pattern because I love the discipline and precision. I will not be competing or joining the NSRCA because the old timers are not receptive to new people in my experience. Unless something changes here, pattern will die. The pattern community needs to recruit new people, and mentor them actively in order to keep them. Trying to learn the sport by yourself is a slow process, full of discouragement. Don't get me wrong. I am not looking for someone to hold my hand here. But it would be great to have someone take an active interest in my flying...help me with trimming, call and critique my performance, so that I could make improvements. Ocala contest is coming up and I'm not even sure if my manuevers look like what the rest of the country is flying or not, I only have a description from the AMA rulebook. I think this is shame.
By the way, one of the flyers is an officer of the NSRCA!

RE: Pattern start
 

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Do a search on my posts, and have fun reading the crap I get into with some of pattern's "elite". If anyone should be sour towards pattern, it would be me.

Not so. You have yet to attend a D3 contest, you are only exposed to a couple of individuals. THEY are not pattern, they are pattern flyers. There is a difference.

Go to Ocala. In fact be there by noon Friday. At the field ready to fly. I'll help you. I'm sure I told you that once before. I find it hard to believe nobody around there will help, that just baffles me....like I'm missing something.

You fly pattern for you, not for "them". You WILL meet great and like minded people if you attend contests. But not every single one will be easy to get along with or even care about helping. I've yet to see a person get fed to the lions in D3 at a contest. That's why hackles aren't going up in D3, cuz I haven't seen it. But then again maybe I'm not even looking?

Or not. Your call!

-Mike

RE: Pattern start
 

Xrod consider yourself lucky to have any form of help. Some people (primarily me) are the only pattern flyer in the area, all the rest flew it in the 80s. I get no help except RCU, so deal with it. Build a balsa bridge and get over it.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

I didn't really have any when I started. Nobody even looked at me until I built my first 2 meter plane. Then I guess they figured I was serious, and I found myself swarmed with help.

Thing is, I just said screw it and just WENT to my first contest with one goal in mind: get through the rounds and bring it home intact. I did that....and got 2nd place out of 9. I got plenty of help on practice day, and when I drove home, I had seen every manuever flown very well from sportsman through FAI. I understood roundness, straight lines and centering. I learned how to size things and manage the box. I knew all of these things, but that didn't mean I could do it. So I just did what I knew: flew smooth and consistent, and it got me a hard fought 2nd my first time out.

But I didn't realize how much I was missing until I entered my first contest. Raw, 9 days of practice TOTAL. The plane was also 9 days old. Everything was fresh and I just threw caution to the wind and jumped out there. I am SO glad I did.

Also realize some people are GREAT flyers, but they suck at teaching. These are the guys who can tell you in detail what you're doing wrong, but have a hard time explaining how to fix it. I'm like that to some extent. Given enough time and patience, I can help people straighten up thier manuevers. But communication is sometimes difficult until the newer pilot gets to the point of understanding some things. So, I just wallow through and try and learn as I go. Sometimes I get help, sometimes I don't. Doesn't matter, I love the plane, the challenge, the pressure I put on myself, the glory of victory and the agony of defeat. I love it all. And so many of the regulars down here are such cool people. Which is why I'm having a hard time understanding someone being ignored. Not to say I don't believe it, it's just difficult because I haven't yet seen it for myself.

Anyway, just a thought.
-Mike

RE: Pattern start
 

What I know about the evil bad monkey man is strictly through his many fascinating and enjoyable postings, but I'm sure I would enjoy the heck out of a flying session with him. Thanks for stepping up for us, Mike. Xrod, I hope you can make it to Ocala. Dreamer, your day will come. Stick with it. Fly alone if you have to, you'll hook up with someone one of these days. Enjoy when you can, endure when you must.

RE: Pattern start
 

Guys, I'm sorry that I have led this thread off on another tangent. Dreamer, I have gotten over it..a long time ago. Like you, I get a lot of help from RCU. It sucks that there is no one in your area to help out, I'm sure you would think that it sucks worse to have people there that won't help. I don't know how long you have been flying, but at some point you will understand that what may take you a month to discover/accomplish could have been done in a day with the help of someone that has traveled this path before. Remember that I said I'm NOT looking for someone to hold my hand. We stilll have to burn the fuel.
Mike, I always get sage advice from you, and yes, I still plan to go to Ocala. Despite not having practiced lately (been really sick) and my plane is out of wack somewhere on trim (don't know where). I have my new Finesse ready for maiden flight and might try that. My goal will be to see each Sportsman maneuver flown perfectly so I'll know....just like you did. I'm looking forward to meeting you, and getting whatever help I can get. Unfortunately, there is no way I will get there early on Friday. Yes, I also understand your point about good flyers not being very good teachers. We have one like that, but another has coached others to success.
Thanks

RE: Pattern start
 

could someone illistrate a double immelman

RE: Pattern start
 

The double I in sportsman is two half loops with an inverted segment. So you fly past center and execute a half loop. Then fly a straight line inverted segment. The length of the inverted line is equal to the height of the half loop. The pull into the second half loop and exit.

Another way to picture it is with a box with half circles on each end. The box must be centered.

All maneuvers are described in the AMA [link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/0506Rulebook/rc-aero2005.pdf]rule book[/link]

RE: Pattern start
 

Hoping to clear up a point of confusion: there are no rolls in the Double Immelmann. The Double I traces a figure like an oval racetrack, starting with a straight & level bottom, pull a round half loop up, then a lengthened straight & level inverted top, then pull another half loop down to starting level, then finish with straight & level upright back through center. The point of this maneuver is to maintain track during inverted flight. Of course the half loops need to stay on track as well, such that the maneuver is at all times in a vertical plane parallel to the flight line. This simple sounding maneuver teaches maintaining track in a crosswind, and should get special attention when practicing with a crosswind. Learning inverted rudder is a crucial part of working through the Sportsman class. (The other crucial parts are all the other parts.)

RE: Pattern start
 

Hey guys,

I'm having second thoughts about the widebody. I'm thinking maybe a Zafiro now for the AA stuff or the Impact (I hear it's more like an arc than an arf.) Opinions, comments, complainents.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

With high throw rates the widebody is wild.

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I'd expect no less from a pattern plane. anymore thoughts comments complaints or otherwise.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

Thanks for the kind words. For real.

-Mike (the evil bad monkey man)

RE: Pattern start
 

Hey Mike,

Compliments on the Tempest. What are you words of wisdom for a pattern beginner.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

We have two guys at my club who won Nationals, so there is a lot of pattern experience. From what I've seen, you have to show a genuine and continuing interest in pattern to get taken seriously. A lot of guys will say they are interested, but they forget about it after taking the time of these guys. If you are interested and do the things a genuinely interested person would do, that says more than words to these guys. It doesn't matter that your loops aren't big and round, just practicing and moving up to a pattern plane speaks for itself.

A chip on the shoulder never helps.....

RE: Pattern start
 

Hmmm....not sure I have any words of wisdom. But just a couple of thoughts.

Mainly, do it. Don't just practice and play, get out there and compete. That's where the real fun is, even if a person isn't a competetive person by nature, they'll find out fast how much fun it really is. And moreover, how much they'll learn in 2-3 days....it's amazing. Even when you're at the upper levels, one competition will push you past your normal limits. And you will get better.

For a beginner, I'd say this. As far as the airplane, you don't NEED a modern 2 meter plane, but once you fly one you'll never look back again. So I'd say get all the plane you feel comfortable getting, and learn how to set it up and trim it from day one. You never stop tweaking, because as your flying changes, your plane will have to change slightly as well.

Power is key, size is not as important. Even the sportsman pattern can get fairly power hungry in a coupel of places, and you'll find yourself needing that punch over the top occasionally. So whatever you get, make sure it has enough power.

Practice: Straight lines. I can't stress this one enough. Every manuever in pattern begins and ends with a straight line, and it's one of the most difficult things to do consistently. If you can control your line, you can control your pattern in general. Never stop practicing this. When I get to a contest, even in advanced, the first thing I do on my first flight of practice is fly straight lines back and forth. It gets me familiar with the field, the box, and sets up everything else. it's simple, boring, and immensely critical. If you can control your line, you have more than half of the competition beat from the start in just about any class. It just gets more difficult the higher you get as the complexity increases.

Know thy box. Get to where you can FEEL center, each end and the top. This comes with time.

Learn rudder and throttle control from the very beginning. Nothing is more nasty than the dreaded inverted rudder for a new guy. Even if it looks punchy, do it. It takes years to get that rudder and power down pat, so start early.

When you practice your pattern itself, envision a top and bottom line fixed in the sky. Stick that plane on those lines every time. Consistency will get you everywhere.

When you have the manuevers down and begin to try and perfect them, work on sizing. It doesn't really matter what the size is too much, but size the manuevers about the same in respect to each other.

Verticals should be dead straight up and down, and all looping segments should have a nice circular look. FLy a perfect circle. It's not easy. on the loops, watch the exact point where you pull on center, and when you come back through the bottom, fly through that exact spot. A common mistake is to make it egg shaped...pay close attention. You'll need a good bit of power and a bit of rudder correction through the top, and work on keeping your wings level.

Lastly, but most importantly, have fun. ALWAYS make sure you're enjoying yourself. It's will amaze you how quick a person can get sucked deep into the "seriousness" of pattern and forget we're flying toy planes. If you find yourself stressing and feeling yucky aboutt he whole thing, back off or you'll bake to a crisp. Pattern guys are obsessive by nature and tend to burn out hard and heavy. be aware of this going in and you can avoid it.

Dunno what else to say, really. Just jump [8D]

-Mike

RE: Pattern start
 

well i thought about going with the zafiro or going head first into an impact or extra 2x2. You are probably right about 2m planes and thats the stuff i like.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

well i thought about going with the zafiro or going head first into an impact or extra 2x2. You are probably right about 2m planes and thats the stuff i like.

patterndreamer

sorry for double post

RE: Pattern start
 

My first attempt at trying to get some help from a world class pattern flyer was met with indifference. As I would show up when I knew he would be practicing after about 6 times he finally did show me where the peg was in the center of the box where he stood to do his patterns. I then ask if he would help me learn to fly pattern but he refused, as he allways had to get going right after his three practice flights. As there was no one else in my club that flew pattern I read all I could and spent the time to learn how to trim my plane and burnt a lot of fuel. The IMAC guys helped me the most and were a freindly fun loving group to be around. I agree the pattern guys I have encountered are a stuck up bunch of elite flyers that do not have the time of day for a newbe trying to learn the ropes. I will continue to go it alone making my way by burning fuel, and asking or giving no quarter when the time comes.

RE: Pattern start
 

I want some names, all of you having these problems. PM or email of course, not publicly. If that's true, it's crappy of them and my curiousity is killing me. I hear this all the time, and have seen it myself from "some". So send me an email at:

[email protected]

or PM me. But I want names. Thanks.

-Mike

RE: Pattern start
 

Stick to it Taildrager, in the end you will inevitably encounter some nicer folks in pattern.

RE: Pattern start
 

Well, I found someone at my field who flies pattern and he's offered help to me. I'm hoping to get an aa plane soon and begin. no one has said anything about my final 3. thezafiro the impact or the extra 2x2.

patterndreamer

RE: Pattern start
 

Mike, you see examples often enough on the NSRCA message board.
A Sportsman or Intermediate guy asks a question-
they are just looking for a little guidance. It may seem to be a "dumb" question to some, or one that has been answered before...but you take a guy interested enough in pattern to be on the NSRCA website and sign up hoping to learn some things...and all they get is teased or smart aleck answers for the next 8 hours...
great way to build pattern's future!
Yes, there are some awesome pattern guru's who do take the time to give thoughful, helpful answers...but personally I have learned more here on RCU.

In person, I am lucky enough to be a in club very active in pattern, and very newcomer friendly. We are hosting our 50th consecutive Pattern meet this August- can any club top that? I also have met only good people at D-1 contests and strive to be as helpful when new guys ask my help.

Scott
NSRCA D-1

RE: Pattern start
 

Impact if you can afford it, no question: hands down.

-Mike

RE: Pattern start
 

I know, I've gotten a snootfull of it myself. Just never really in person. Ok maybe once or twice after I had gotten in an arguement with someone's lord and savior :D

Pattern guys are sort of smart alecs to begin with. That part I guess I'm used to and it goes right past me, actually because I'm the worst probably. . But the uppity elitist ignoring ego crap is what grates me to no end. Pattern isn't dripping from the pages of every magazine. To find answers, you have to DIG for them. People should be more receptive and helpful, but honest too. I know the recent list thread you're talking about, I just read it. There's good info in it, but way too much BS for a new guy. If -I- asked a question, I'd expect it, because they mostly know me and I'd know it wasn't personal or whatever. But to do it to a new guy ain't the best idea. On thier defense, I didn't read any malice or meaness, those particular guys just poke fun like that. I garauntee you they never even considered it might be taken in a negative way.

There are great guys out there. Just go to a contest and get off the net :) You'll meet plenty of great people and then the rest don't matter. In the mean time, if you read a bit you'll discover some great people right here in this forum that have a TON of knowledge on everything from scratch building planes to the latest composite uber kit, to trimming, flying, engine tuning (all types)....I garauntee you if you ask the question here, you'll get the answer. But you may get 6 different ones. And in truth and fairness all 6 are probably "right".

But if there is an elistist attitude floating around out there, it needs to die a painful and horrible public death. Because pattern isn't about that at ALL.

Welp speaking of contests I have to get loaded up for the long drive to Ocala tomorrow. I love flying with these guys in D3, they are the coolest. From our NSRCA pres on down the line to the greenest sportsman, these guys are awesome. That's why I HATE hearing stuff like this.

Cya.
-Mike