Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I flew a Hangar 9 Showtime today, and set it up for pattern flying.

For those contemplating this plane, in addition to it being a "4D", it ts a respectable entry level/intermediate pattern plane. It also snaps very well, and will get through the FAI sequences surprisingly well. Here are the settings I put in for a locked in pattern plane feel:

Low rate:
Ailerons- 11 degrees up and down, at 20 percent expo.
Elevator- 8 degrees up and down, at 20 percent expo
Rudder- 20 degrees left and right, at 50 percent expo.

The plane snaps and spins well on low rate.

High rates were 20 degrees, 45 degrees, and 45 degrees for the ailerons,
elevator and rudder, with 60 to 80 percent expo each. I actually had to
dial the high rate aileron down because when it was about 30 degrees throw,
the rolls were so fast it was literally a blur.

Again, to avoid surprises take off and land on low rate and fly at high rate
at altitude until you are proficient at the 4D flying.

After you get a flight or two and the plane is trimmed, Change the trim rate
to 1 percent on the ailerons elevator and rudder for finer trimming
resolution and proper trimming.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll dial in the mixing. It did need just a touch of down elevator with idle for a vertical down line (this one has a lot of weight added to the nose for pattern), but the knife edge was very close, with little if any mixing required. All the above flying is without the SFG fins on. I am under the impression it flies even better with them on. Food for thought on future pattern designs. Maybe some slightly smaller ones for F3A.

Don

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Hi Don,

Getting ready to assemble the Showtime I've had sitting around for a while? What is the powerplant and appox. CG (for pattern)?? Also, wasn't there a plane at the worlds with a version of SFG on the fuse just aft of the canopy (or was that a carry handle?).

Thanks,
mike

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Christophe and Benoit had little t-tails mounted just behind the canopy. The SFG idea could be for the wings. Not sure the impact during a stall tuirn or snap though. It may be worth trying.

The Showtime I flew had a Saito 100 in it. Flew it again today and maybe 10 degrees on the ailerons rather than 11 degrees. They are sensitive.

The CG was positioned per the plans as a starting point. It felt about right. Just needed a little bit of down elevator when inverted.

Don

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Hi Don,

Great info!! I have the Showtime and I will definatelly try your set up for pattern flying, that's one of the reasons I bought it. I'm really glad to hear that the plane can fly ok a basic /intermediate pattern sequence.

I have a question though, my ailerons have a little bit of warp, I tried to make them straight with heat as much as I could. However a little but of warp is still there.When looking carefully along the aileron trailing edge line, I notice that is not perfect straight. Did you notice something similar to your model? I'm afraid there's not much I can do about this, do you think it will affect the model trimming a lot?

For 3D is 20' throw enough to oppose the gyroscopic effects during hover?

Looking forward to your reply, thanks in advance.

Nick

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Don,

Can you give us an all-up weight with the Saito 100?

Lem

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Mine with same engine, 9411 servos and one 8411-- 8 lbs2 ozs and I was amazed at how well it flew the pattern.
A review will be out shortly in 3DFlyer .
It is the best ARF I have seen to date - anybody's.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

This is high praise, indeed, fellas.... Dick does NOT hand out that kind of statement unless it's the real deal. I'm glad I have one coming (should arrive tomorrow).

Dick - I'm using 8231's on ailerons - whatcha think?

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

A local flyer has one with Saito 120. It flys really good and slow for pattern. Except the landing gear.
I maybe able to hook him up to fly Sportsman at Fort Scott contest.

AeroBob,
Todd misses you!! Are you coming to contest? Maybe you can show us flying the Showtime in Master?


Ihncheol Park

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Did not hover it much, since it was not my plane... I basically trimmed it for a newbe to 3D/ intermediate sport flyer who is just dipping his toes into the aerobatics stuff. Brand new Saito 100 which was still breaking in. I did do the fastest rolls I've seen short of that little delta plane they call a lawn dart. It was very entertaining to watch.

With that I did do safely left and right rolling harriers easy, using high rates, I believe changing to a right rotating torque roll is no problem. Check the 3D forum. I think there is a local expert with an awesome video of this plane doing everything, that is with the SFG's on. I did notice about 1/16 inch left aileron trim in the wing, which could be as you described, or just a (manual) change of incidence. I did not notice any side effects during pattern type flying, but in 3D high alpha it needed some rudder to straighten. I'm going by memory and can't remember which. Let me see, if you twist some negative in the left wing to take out the trim on the aileron, that would mean the left wing is carrying pos incidence and will stall first (drop) during high alpha. So it must be right rudder needed during high alpha. I can't remember.... I think he had some left rudder trim in... No maybe that was the guy I helped with a Goldberg Sukhoi. It all ran together, I must have helped at least 8 people last weekend.


Will report back when we fly it again. That is between all the Tucson prep.

Don

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Thanks Don,

As I wrote, I tried to reconstruct one of the ailerons as much as I could. Have glued everything on now, I hope it flies ok, if it needs a lot of trimming I will tear the covering material underneath and fix both ailerons where warp exists. I also found some warp on the left stabiliser, balsa was probably cracked. I fixed that too.

I'm not very sure about these CA hinges, I think I'm going to put some pins to the external hinges plus some monokote to seal the hinge gaps.

Hope it flies ok, I will probably participate at a local pattern contest in October, but there's not much time as I have to break in my YS-110, set up the plane and practice.

I will definatelly use your throws and expo for pattern, what prop would you recommend for pattern and the YS-110? Is a 16x6 ok you think?

Regards,

Nick

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I've had my Showtime flying for a couple of weeks. Mine is 8lbs 8oz with OS91FX. No wheel pants. Lighter axles. Sullivan tailwheel. Lighter wheels. I used a 14oz tank as didn't want to carry around all that extra fuel. I have been having engine probs but have flown enough to say that if flies well. Throws have to be cut way down for pattern. I used the recommended cg and it feels about right.

The two h. stabs are not exactly lined up. The h. stabs are a little loose on the pipe. The engine mount is very flexible. I can move my spinner up and down almost 1/4 inch due to mount flex. Not sure if this is good or bad. My ailerons were a bit wavy too, but I don't know that you could get (and keep) perfectly straight ailerons. It took a few clicks of aileron and a few of up elevator to trim. Knife edge takes very little correction.

Overall, I think it is a very well done ARF. Even used some epoxy in key areas. Went together quickly. Can't wait to solve my engine issues and really do some flying.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Can you please mention the key areas where epoxy has to be applied?

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

To clarify, the ARF already had (what appears to be) epoxy applied in the appropriate places. The only reinforcing I did was to use some 1/8 ply strips to reinforce where the plywood ends and the balsa stringers about midway back on the fuse.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I just completed mine. Haven't weighed it yet - has a Saito 1.50 with exhaust stub. Hitec 5945's all round. Put the rudder servo in the tail. Used the crossbar tiller on the rudder so I could hook the steering springs to that, and not bind up the springs at full deflection.

Interesting to note a couple of things -
1. Saito 1.50 is beyond insane power....no doubt aobut it.
2. With the rudder servo in the tail - the battery had to go UNDER the aft end of the tank, up against the landing gear box to balance at the manual spec, empty tank. (I guess the metal gear servos all in the back really added tail weight - the Saito is NOT a lightweight, either!)

Will test fly shortly - but so far, it looks like it will have the power to let me fly anywhere at any speed. Will weigh the parts, too.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Well I did it.... Got the Showtime to get my feet wet in pattern. I got a
great deal on the plane, new in box, from a freind.

I will be using a OS 1.20 Surpass 4 stroke.

Do you think digital servo's are needed? I was thinking about getting
Hitec 5625's or 5645's.

Do you think Hitec 5625's would be better then the 5645's ? The 5625's
are a little faster, .14sec @ 6 volts then the 5645's, .18 sec @ 6 volts, but
with a little less power.... 168 oz for the 5645' vs 131 oz for the 5625's.

Thank you for the help

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Just a heads up....

For anyone assembling this plane before you complete step #8 in
the manual you should check your incidence on the stabilizer half's.

Mine right stab was out 1 degree.

Once you drill the second hole in the stab tube you are locking the
left and right side together. If the incidence on the left and right side
are not equal you might not be able to make the adjustment later.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

************************************************** ************************************************** *********************
All the above flying is without the SFG fins on. I am under the impression it flies even better with them on. Food for thought on future pattern designs. Maybe some slightly smaller ones for F3A.

Don
************************************************** ************************************************** *********************

It should perform all maneuvers requiring rudder, better, with the side force thingies on. More vertical area, closer to the AC makes rudder more effective. Rather than adding dorsal and ventral strakes on the fuse ala Nat Penton, they chose this compromise. Besides, they look pretty kool.

I suspect that many older pattern planes with pencil thin fuselages would benefit from such a modification.

MattK

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

The fuselage holes that stabiliser halfs slide into are predrilled and laser cut from the factory. There must be some problem with your stabilisers, may be one of two is warped.

I haven't checked mine but will do. Don't expect this plane to have the accuracy in building such as planes by PL Prod and ZN Line, if you want to make it perfect straight you have to put some work on it. Personally I corrected some warp found on ailerons and one of the stabilisers.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

No problem with the stabilizers, the holes in the fuse where just out
a little.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

My final setup will be...

OS1.20 Surpass 4 stroke
5 Hitec 5645 digital servo's
SWB aluminum servo arms
MPI switch with regulator
2400 MiH Lithiom-Ion 2 cell pack from Troy Built

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

If I wanted to go the 2 stroke route rather than 4 stroke what would you all recommend?
Thanks!
JLK

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

O.S. 1.08 is a good match. There is video of my buddies on my webpage if you would like to see it in action. If I was going to do mine over again, personally I would put a Webra Speed 1.20 with a pump on it. I think that would be the perfect match. I still might do it because I find myself flying less and less 3D. My Saito 100 doesn't have enough juice to get the airspeed up on it like a 2 stroker does.

www.teamlawndart.com



Neo Out!!!

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

LOVE my ST. Awesome pattern ship!

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Hmmm, what's the word on fitting an OS .91 and pipe into this airframe? Mine needs a home (R.I.P. U-CAN-DO)

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I just picked up a Showtime a couple of days ago and have it mostly put together. They did a nice job with this once, very nicely thought out and easy to put together. I will be using the OS .91 with an ES pipe, so I have to probably get a Mueller header for it custom made. This one looks like a winner. Just curious though, is anyone using that mongo tailwheel assembly? That could just about go on a 35% model!

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I couldn't bring myself to hard mount the engine, so here's a few pics of how I modified a Hyde A mount to fit the OS .91 going in the nose. I just used what I had, so this was originally a mount that fit an OS 1.40 RX. I cut the beam mounts supplied with the kit. Overall weight of the mount is 4.4 oz, which is acceptable I think. So this added about 2 oz from the stock beam mount weight, but I'm basically getting some of that back since this is going to have a 3 oz CF pipe to replace the 6.5 oz OS muffler Header weight is unknown, probably going to be under 2 oz and since I will use a teflon coupler system, that doesn't add enough weight to really worry about. Hopefully this will be a good setup. Thanks to Nat in La for a good deal on the ES pipe!

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

can you post a pic of the pipe installation ie.. Fuselage mod when you get a chance?

Thanks!

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Will do. Just brought the header home tonight, will probably have it all done Sat AM.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

OK, I hit a snag with the header drop being short about 1/4" and got hung up making an aluminum spacer. This is why we save bent landing gear, for just such occasions when materials stock is needed. The engine ended up being rotated about 80 deg to make the header exit line up properly. Unfortunately, the head now pokes through the side, but I can live with that. Had to do a little bit of shimming behind the Hyde mount to eliminate some up and left thrust that snuck in with the new beam mounts. Must have not got the hole alignment just right. Anyway, it looks like it will work out well. Have not done the pipe mounts to the fuselage yet, that should be fairly easy. The plan is to just hang them from O-rings like I usually do, so just a few small hardpoints have to be added with a isolating spacer somewhere along the way.

This might be more trouble than it's worth, but what the heck, we'll see how it flies when the weather clears.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Did some more setting up and checked a few CG locations. With the CG just at or slightly forward of the leading edge at the tip, seemed to be just fine, or maybe just a little nose heavy, but it flew well. The other one I flew did not have a cowl and it had a light muffler setup. It felt tail heavy. This one had the balance at about 1/3 of the chord at the tip. Great for 3 D with high rate but a more optimum place is closer to the first one. .

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Ed,
You might run into that header breaking with the muffler that far from the rotational point of the Hyde. Even though you are after saving weight, I would insert a soft silcone coupler just after the bend before the connetion to the pipe.

Regards,

Eric.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Eirc, it's a concern to be sure. I'm hoping that it may not move as much as is typical since it is using a 1.40 mount, so it won't have the same torque to bang with as what the mount is built for. Nevertheless, I may just take that precaution. It's looking like it may tend to be a little tailheavy anyway, so it would work out favorably.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Anyone running the EVO 1.00 in this rig, if so what muffler are you running and how is the performance?

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Ended up doing a different type of O-ring hangar on this, mainly because there just isn't alot of structural "meat" at the fuselage bottom to make hard points for the O-rings the way I usually do. Normally, It would be using a pair of screws and washers on either side of each "hanging station", then the O-ring just goes around the pipe, with a twist or two on either side, then under the washers and snugged up. Here, I ended up making centered hard points. The aft one is designed to both suspend the pipe and to maintain some "tug" forward to keep it from sliding aft. That one is just a little eye hook to grab the ring. The other one is a screw/washer (silver soldered together) and the O-ring is double looped under it to stay put and then the pipe is slid through. Looks like it will work, but I will be grinding the head of the screws down to give more clearance and avoid wearing a hole through the pipe. This isn't exactly what I thought I would do when I started the project, but should work. I would like to see other solutions to this.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I finally flew my Showtime for the first time today. About 3 minutes into
the first flight I was really comfortable with this plane. It was a little
strange at first since I am used to flying the 28% Extra, but it was nice.

I set the plane up with triple rates:
Low was Don's settings he posted here.
Mid was the recommended low rate in the manual
High was the recommended high - but I think I only used 35 degree's on the ailerons

I flew the plane without the SFG's installed. The plane needs more right thrust,
pulled to the left pretty good on up-lines. It had very little coupling in knife edge
at low and mid rate, mine wanted to roll upright just a little. The CG seemed just
right at 7-1/2!QUOT! back for the leading edge at the fuselage, 45 degree up-line let
go and it stayed on track for a few feet and just slightly started to taper off.
Landing was a little fast, but it was not a problem, I had a 15x8 APC prop on it
but I also have a APC 16x6 to try out.

Setup:
OS 120 4 stroke
Hitec 5645's all around
SWB aluminum arms all around
Rudder servo in the tail
2400 Lithium Ion Rx pack
MPI switch and regulator
True Turn FAI aluminum spinner

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Hey Dick, a couple guys(me included)are having a problem with the plane snapping during tight loops and when pulling up elevator from a down line, to me, its the only bad trait this plane has and not all are experiencing it. Mine weighs in around 10lbs, has a Moki 1.35 in it, CG is at recommended spot, has been balanced laterally.I use tripple rates, it happens at medium rate(about 80% throw with 75% expo, its slightly less than 45 degrees elevator at mid rate.) I'm not hitting full elevator when it snaps to the right(always right), I dont think I'm pulling the sticks more than half way. A thread is growing on this, I know there is many things we can try to solve this but maybe you can save us all some time and effort,any ideas??

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I have had the same problem with mine snapping to the right also. I did not see any warps in the wing and figured it is that my right elevator is either faster or moving futher then the left so I turned the attachment on the 8-32 screw on the elevator 3 turns out and it seems to have tamed it down some what.

Since that has help with the snap I moved the screw again but weather is turning to Windy and cold so not sure if it will fly again till spring.

Did not notice any other change in flight since doing it. But I am not a pattern flyer so exact movement evade me.

Hope this help

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

I've been helping a local friend of mine with this airplane and he had some serious weird things happening similar to what you guys are.
In looking over the plane I found that the stab tube had loosened in the fuse and in both stabs as well.
I could move by hand the stab leading edge up and down at least 3/4 of an inch.
After he fixed everything, most of the strange trim changes unsurprisingly.....went away!
The servo gears were another problem.....those big control surfaces just eat up the gears in no time.
The plastic geared servos will last a lot longer.

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

So if not this plane for a try at pattern what does everyone recommend?
Thanks!
JLK

RE: Showtime for Pattern flying?
 

Any of the current ARF's that are designed for Pattern.....
The Showtime is designed primarily for 3D.