Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Excuse me while I ramble on about my current rc experience. I have been flying for almost 30 years. I have had many planes including Extras, kobra's, Suhkoi's, Chipmunks, profiles etc.....

In the late 70's when I was a teen pounding my Kadet in the dirt I always admired the guys with thier Curares, Tiporares etc executing perfect maneuvers.

Recently I have been flying an RC City Total Eclipse with an os 61 pumped rear exhaust. What a blast. This thing is a missile and makes me look like a pro. I have never had so much fun in this hobby. The enclosed power systems, the os coming on pipe, the retracts coming up, the speed, the fact that it takes a quarter mile for the darn thing to slow down to land.....

The only thing is these ships are no longer made. They became obsolete when the YS 4 Stokes came out. I have not been to a recent pattern competition so have not seen the new designs fly. I am not interested in competition yet.....not available to my area.

I now have a new Hanno 61 pipe combo in the wings for this plane or another.....

Tell me: Are the new pattern ships as fast and as much fun? Am I missing out on the modern era or should I continue on the path of acquiring more of these missiles? Perhaps something special for the Hanno?

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Hmm, good question. I suppose that depends on you.

The "new" planes aren't as fast as the old ballistic designs. They do fly better though. In fact, a good 2 meter plane must be flown to be appreciated. They are unlike anything else in the sky. They are smooth, graceful, and true.

When I was a kid in about '79 I too freaked over the Curares and such. I wanted one so bad I could taste it. I simply couldn't afford it at the time. I did however manage to attend the 82 (or 83?) Tangerine pattern meet in orlando. At that time, it was a HUGE pattern contest and drew the top dogs. Watching those Curares, Tipos, EU-1s, UFOs with those Rossi engines on nitro pipes....man what a rush!!!

I also watched Don Lowe demo the "new FAI turnaround pattern" that weekend. He flew it with a Laser 200 if memory serves. That was the first time I ever saw a rolling circle. I thought that was the end of pattern, it was slow and very unpattern to me at that time.....

Well 20 years later I FINALLY decided to give it a try. I must say I had no idea what I was missing.

Is it as much fun? To me, absolutely. It is different however. I love the old planes and I have a Bridi UFO with a Webra .61 RE, piped, with Kraft electric retracts on the wall behind me here. (Signed on the wing by Joe!) I just appreciate the difference for what it is.

If the speed itself is the main draw for you, then maybe you wouldn't appreciate modern pattern. But if the precision, the discipline and the skill is what you like, then I'd have to say it's moreso now than it was then. Scored turnarounds added a whole new slant to pattern. Now even the entry class only has one box exit.

Well my advice would be to do both =) but if you need primarily a speed fix, the new designs are fast, but nothing like the old piped missles of yesterday. They are incredible aircraft though, and everyone should feel the sticks of a properly trimmed 2 meter design at least once......you may never fly anything else =)

Mike Hester

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

YOU GUYS ARE ALMOST BRINGING TEARS TO MY EYES AS I TYPE
I TOO AM FROM THAT ROCKET ERA AND SO LOVED THE SPEED AND
PERFORMANCE.HOWEVER I DO REMEMBER WATCHING DR EMERY WAYMAN FROM PORTLAND OREGON IN DELTA PARK DO NEARLY EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK WITH A VERY SPECIAL CLIPPED WING CUB.TOO EACH HIS OWN.I LOVE IT ALL

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

caf2461,

I think Mike summed it up very well.

I too would encourage you to go out and watch one of the "new" pattern events (at least watch a few good fliers perform the Masters or FAI patterns).

The sheer speed of the previous pattern planes is not there anymore, but what has replaced it is equally impressive, and in my opinion more interesting and more mentally challenging to fly.

Planes now pack an incredible number of maneuvers into a beautifully choreographed aerial ballet. The slower speeds mean more variety, more options, and more maneuvers in a smaller space. Upper classes perform combinations of maneuvers strung together that make pilots master every conceivable orientation of the aircraft, with a mind boggling number of inverted exits.

Watching and flying these maneuvers is truly a joy.

BTW, don't be intimidated from participating based on my description of the upper classes. The beginner classes start very easy and work their way up to the more complicated stuff.

Best of luck,
Keith

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Wow, another trip down memory lane...
I started flying pattern in 1973 with an Aeromaster. Graduated to a Super Kaos and from there went on to fly Dirty Birdies, Deceptions, Arrows, etc. I've never flown a pattern ship I didn't like!! As the available power increased the size of the planes increased. The 2meter limit is probably here for awhile, but I remember Norm Staub designed an 80"x80" pattern plane before the 2 meter rule came into effect (for a YS 1.20AC - needed about 50% nitro. I bet He would of loved the plane on a Dingo!!)
Anyway, the 'new' planes fly great, just more deliberate than their ancestors. They may be a bit slower, but size also lends that impression. Fly an Arrow at 130-140mph then a Focus at 90-100mph and it seems the Focus is standing still in comparison, but the big engines provide unlimited vertical and potentially huge maneuvers as a result.
You can still get a Focus kit an sale from Piedmont - a great deal and you'll be in the air quickly with an excellent airplane. Then you can really feel the difference - you won't be disappointed.
-Will B.

Old Time Pattern
 

Heck, I can go to the field any sunny weekend and watch the guys fly the giants and get almost the same variety of maneuvers as at modern pattern contest and many consider the scale planes more appealing than the lines of a pattern ship.
Don't get me wrong, I like the way a 2 meter pattern ship flies, just don't care to compete in turnaround. But take heart, there is a place where you can fly pattern and compete with the old .60 powered Dirty Birdys, Curares, Compensators, Super Kaos, ect. according to the old rules before turnaround. This is SPA.....do a search there is plenty of info on it in this forum.
PilotFrog

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

FlyWilly,
Man you had me going. Went to the Piedmont site. $525.00 for a ARC. Opps --- way out of my pocket book. Going to plans build a Cloud Dancer and a Kaos this winter. No pattern going on in my area. At least that I know of. :) Spring I'll be trying to fly the Sportsmans routines. Really looking forward to it.

John

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Thanks for some really good responces. Glad to see there are others who appreciate these old birds for what they are. I have to admit the speed definately appeals to me. The amazing part for me is after all this time - I discover your secret.....a properly dialed in pattern ship is very easy to fly!

A significant # of maneuvers I struggled to do properly come much easier. I have to perfect my 4 and 8 point rolls. Can't wait till I nail an 8 point.

Problem is I tend to get distracted by just boring holes in the sky and buzzing the deck.....brings back boyhood memories.

As fast as this plane is it does nothing unexpected so thinking ahead of it is not a challenge. Landing this plane is somewhat of a challenge as it takes forever to bleed off speed and has a long glide ratio. Uses all the field our little club has to land. Thinking about setting up flaperons.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Actually, the speed is still available if you want it. Put a 1.20 or 1.40 stroke on any of the "non-widebody" planes with a 13 or 14 pitch prop and you've got the potential for a missle. The thing about the new pattern planes, is they fly very well fast or slow. I built a Carl Goldberg Finesse with a TT 1.20 on a pipe. It's a great plane with a very wide speed envelope. It's slightly smaler than a 2M.

FLASHBACK!!!
 

How about a Phil Kraft designed Kwik-Fli.... my first pattern plane and the Taurus. Then I was out of the R/C scene for some years and got back into it flying a 27 yr old KAOS.

THEN.... a guy in N. Dallas club let me touch his 2-meter airship... I was hooked on the way that thing flew. Just breath on the sticks and it went right where I pointed it. Now I have one of the new wide body 2-meter planes and am further impressed with the way it flies.

I think I'll keep my current model but the old KAOS is still hangin on the ceiling and ready for a charge.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Regarding SPA; if a fellow showed up with a classic Bridi Super Kaos that had a YS 63 four stroke in the nose, would he be tarred & feathered???<G>

Steve

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

If I'm not mistaken, you can use a 4 stroke in SPA up to .91 sized, BUT it can't be supercharged etc. I'm not exactly sure about the standard YS fuel system.

The only thing that keeps me away from SPA is you can't run tuned pipes or retracts. the guys with the .91 4 strokes are running away with it. Let me fly my piped UFO and I'll fly it =)

-Mike

Long live Pattern!
 

I still have my Tiporare. :) Nothing like a 300 foot loop at Mach 2.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

That Tipo is beautiful!!! Too bad you can't get them anymore. or does someone have plans/templates they might share for a price? I have Curare plans but I really want a Tiporare...

-Mike

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Nice Tippo! Here is my rapid Eclipse. Any Curare's out there still?

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

What's that? Sounds like a controversy about engine size in the SPA. I thought the SPA was a brotherhood of like minded old timers that were tired of the changes and controversy's surrounding pattern flying. ;)

SPA Rules
 

You can go to the SPA site and read the rules.
Any design prior to Jan 1 1976 is legal. This includes the Curare but the Tiporare is not on the list as it came later....however the Utter Chaos and Killer Chaos came much later and are allowed...so there is some "allowances" in the rules.
Engine must be side exhaust but can be schnerle ported, no tuned pipes but I would think a tuned one piece muffler like a Dynathrust is legal.
No retract gear....if equipped must be flown with them down. You can change tri gear to a tail dragger set up.
Can use a pump on engine but no oversize carb.
4 strokes up to .91 but cannot be supercharged.
You are right about the 4 strokes starting to dominate....a pumped .91 OS in a model like a Daddy Rabbit is a heck of a competitive plane....and the Daddy Rabbit is around 30 years old......bet it would be better in something like the Curare.....hmmmm....but then I don't like 4 strokes.
PilotFrog

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

I can remember those days! I learned to fly in the spring of 1975. There was this man in our club that flew pattern. The guys that taught me how to fly said you won't like that. Its not fun. After that all I could think about was the fancy painted airplane called a Blue Angle, and the man flying it was Mr. Bill Lipes. I started flying pattern in 1977. My first pattern plane was a Super Kaos. Unfortunately it didn't last too long thanks to a Heathkit radio. The next airplane was a Dirty Birdy with a new Pro Line Radio. After that was a Compensator. My first pattern contest was in Burlington NC. I had a lot of fun in those years going to pattern meets in Virgina, North Carolina, and South Carolina. I also made two nationals one in Lake Charles, LA and Dayton OH. I would like to see some of the people I flew with... Russ Chiles, Sammy Hill, Johnny Powers, Larry Nash. Oh well so much for day dreaming back to work!

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Well, truth is there's not really any contoversy. The old guys make the rules, and that's pretty much that. Otherwise you'd lose the "spirit" of SPA. And that's fine, I'm not knocking them.

All the same I think it was a huge mistake to allow 4 strokes up to .91 cu. I understand that without a piped .61 those airframes don't have the power they really needed. And if they allow the piped .61s then they are begging for the same old problems that made pattern change to turn around in the first place (noise and lots of it). But to then limit 2 strokes to .61 and no pipes, well....there just aren't any readily available .61s that have the power of the .91 4 strokes. Although I have seen a couple of T2As with YS .61s and ultrathrust mufflers that came very close.

I think the real question is how a rabbit with a .91 4 stroke would do against a Curare with a piped .61 and retracts <G> I think the answer lies in history.

it's really sad, those of us who like that era of pattern (75-85 or so) are dead in the dirt for competition. I'm sorry, I like the old patterns but I do NOT like the looks of a rabbits. Now the Curare and the Tipo, the Atlas, Arrow, EU-1, THOSE are some sweet planes.

Maybe we should start the BPA (Ballistic Pattern Association).

Ya know, I have been eyeballing these Curare plans for a year now. I wonder what's the hottest .61 2 stroke out there readily available?

Ahh well, I still love my 2 meter planes.

-Mike

BPA...
 

Now I'm down with that! I LOVE the piped Rossi 61's, OS VF's, OPS's, Picco's... that's what I'M talkin' about! I like the SPA idea, but no pipes and retracts..man that's cold. Give me the classic designs, Piped 61's, retracts...noise, speed, 300 ft loops....sex, love, rock and roll, .....I have enough of the "speed" pattern era engines to equip a fleet...and I have a lot of vinyl albums, too :rolleyes:

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

HAHAHA!!

Tell ya what Chuck, you find us a field where noise will NOT be a problem, get an ok, and I'll make the drive! Heck I'll dust off this UFO and see if this old Webra will still spin!!! Hey this plane is like 10 lbs and 7 channels (elev, ail, thr, rudd, flaps, retracts and in flight mixture) still has the old ACE servos...those could be a problem...but the Kraft electric retracts still work!!!

Ahh what the heck, I'd build a new rocket JUST for that!!!

I love the smell of nitro in the morning...

-Mike

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

The YS side exhaust with a Dynathrust muffler would probably be one of the strongest 2 stroke setup you could run in SPA competition.
I think it was a mistake to allow the 4 strokes in SPA. They were not a factor back then and only development after the area of the legal planes allows them to dominate now.
I too like the more recent pattern models up to the 90s like the Atlanta, Arrow, Eclipse. Bootlegers, and Tiger Tails that had the RE piped .61 engines prior to the new rules with only size and weight restrictions. Perhaps SPA should have a class like this and maybe call it "Legends". I think I will contact Mickey Walker about such and refer him to this thread.
Then I could finish my Deception or build my Great Escape and use my Picco RE or O.S. Hanno special. Maybe I should try to pick up a YS Long Stroke or two.
BTW does anyone know where I could get a set of cores cut for the Deception at a reasonable price?
PilotFrog

Really old pattern
 

I hate to date myself but I 1st flew pattern in 1963 at the ripe old age of 10 years old. My 1st contest was with a Midwest Esquire with a Mc Coy engine and a Min-X reeds radio. At that time there were 3 classes in pattern they were Class 1 which was Rudder and Throttle only,Class 2 which was Rudder, Throttle and Elevator,and class 3 which was Multi or unlimited. I flew class 2. We really thought we were something. Our 3 roll sequence consisted of 3 barrell rolls with hesitation between each to regain altitude and airspeed. We had great contests back then with very healthy participation. We would start off on the Saturday morning of a 2 day contest with 40 planes and we would be lucky to end the next day with 30. I continued to advance thru pattern and saw it evolve into the 70's version with the fast planes with retracts on piped engines. I quit in the early 80's and came back last year with a full hanger of 2 meter planes. At all times I feel like I flew competitive planes for the times and I've enjoyed them all equally well.
When we flew pattern in the early years there were so few choices to modelers. We had Pylon, Pattern and Scale so naturally we had more interest in all 3. Today there are so many choices that most of the events suffer from a lack of participation.
Great thread here that brings back so many fond memories. Mike Mueller

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Mike,
Do you know if anyone has tried talking Dick Hanson into dusting off the molds and putting them back in production?

His Tipo was a better kit than the G.P. kit. The glass was higher quality and lighter.

John

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Hey Mike, you willing to drive to Austin Tx.? The ARCA field sounds like your cup of tea. 50X500 runway that sees a lot, well, before turnines, DF use. That screeming Webra will be right at home. I used to fly a Ultimate Kaos there all the time with a piped YS 60. Used to before I stopped flying a few years back.

John

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

The problem of putting a kit like the Tiporare back in production is the problem we have been discussing all along....demand.
There is simply not much demand for a pattern plane like this....it falls between the cracks. It is not SPA legal and just too fast and small to compete well in modern pattern.
That is why there is so much equipment like this gathering dust and going into decay....including some of mine. Most modelers (I am somewhat guilty myself)prefer to buy a scale aerobatic ARF which gets them in the air fast and cheap rather than build and/or thinker with these sometimes finicky old pattern planes with thier retracts and piped 2 cycle engines. Myself, I have sworn off retracts.
PilotFrog

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

I can't, and will not try, to speak for Dick H., but when I was in the fiberglass pattern plane buisiness, there was at least one spot during the week that I could lay-up anything I wanted. The Tipo is a simple plane to lay up. There is no belly pan, canopy, cowl, etc. Just two fuse mold halves. Both sides of that fuse could be ready to go in the oven after about 1 hour worth of work.

If I had the time, and hadn't developed an allergy to epoxy, I'd be trying to buy up as many of these old molds as possible. Even if I only sold a couple of kits a week, it would be worth the extra modling income.

just my .02 on the subject
John

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Wow!!! a 2m Tipo! That would set the pattern world on fire. Oh well, just a thought.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

I know the SPA gets hit a lot with the retract thing. One of the things they refute it with is that the request always comes from outside of the SPA. I submit that the rule is one reason they are still outside of the SPA =)

At my field there are a group of guys who fly fast Dirty Birdies and such, and they compete in our annual AMA pattern event. They don't get into it any deeper because they don't feel like they can compete with the 2 meter planes. But the rules for SPA exclude the style of pattern plane they enjoy, so they don't do SPA.

There's a lot of people out there that really like this style of pattern plane. It's probably the most testoserone laden pattern there has ever been =) As for no planes being available, well there wasn't a big market for Daddy Rabbits and T2As before SPA either. And not many people realize a Curare is legal, and may consider it sacreligeous to put a 4 stroke on the nose and make it fixed gear. What I consider odd is that the Curare is legal, yet the plans clearly show retracts. I suppose this is considered "fringe".

I also have the plans for a Mach One, and it was designed in 73 I think...and it shows retracts. Interesting.

I think a class for the 75-85 or so planes has some merit to it.

-Mike

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Kinda thought retracts were not really popular anymore, even modern pattern planes did not have them. SPA is for INEXPENSIVE old time pattern. If you want a high speed pattern SIG I guess you can start one.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

I don't thing it has much to do with being "popular" or not. A pattern plane is designed to WIN a competition following the rules. Today's emphasis is a lot more on maniability and stall than on clean trajectories, hence speed is the enemy (almost), and retract does not make sense if you are not looking for speed.

I have looked at SPA rules also, and am not interested, because pretending to fly planes from the 60s and 70s without retracts simply does not make sense. They ALL had retracts, if they were internationally competitive, and today you find good retracts for about 35 bucks, so it has nothing to do with money.

I had a Minare years ago that I loved, and may very well build a Curare, but it would be a crime to have a Curare without retracts, so the hell with the SPA....(Have flown a Mach One, too, was a great plane, fast landings....)

Bernard

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

So why not go ahead and put the retracts on and fly SPA anyway. Just don't raise them up. Retracts were never required for competition, and judging was never about speed. But some judges were swayed by speed so they remained. When popular opinion shifted, then many planes ditched the retracts. IMO the retracts don't hurt (help?) speed near as much as the pipe.

Retracts...
 

Yeah, but they sure look cooler...

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

I did get replies from both Bruce and Mickey at SPA. Mike Hester is right that most of the requests come from people outside the SPA. Bruce said the same thing in a very nice reply to me.
My big issue is not the retracts....I don't like retracts because of the added compexity and weight. They caused me too much woe when I flew pattern. For my level of competition they were not necessary for me and were more of a hinderance. The new crop of 2 M pattern planes proves that retracts are not necessary....the planes flies almost as fast and as well with fuse mounted strut gear and wheel pants.
My issue is being able to fly the planes that were used before the change to turnaround and unlimited engines.
It is also right that most of the winning planes that flew in the early to mid 70s were piped. The Curare that Hanno flew was definetly piped! RE engines were also making their debut.
Just looking for a notch where these planes can fly rather than having to be elbowed out and left to fall between the cracks.
PilotFrog

The Hippo tippo
 

When the Pattern ships started to grow they blew the tipo into the hippo tippo. WoW that was a long time ago. I too loved the speed and clean lines of a 70's pattern ship. At 14 I was flying a Pheoinx 5 and dreaming of a EU1-A. I watched Don Lowe and Dave Brown compete for years as I grew up in Ohio.
Still got a Pices (modified Pheonix 5) and a American Pie (early 80's) unbuilt in the shop. Every time I think of unloading them I say NAAAH next year I will build it.
Scott

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Right about speed, but wrong about trims...gear down and gear up, if the plane is fast and designed for retracts, will not be as neutral gear down.

Bernard

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Well, you can fly them and even compete with them in current AMA pattern, they are legal. You are just at a disadvantage because of the 2 meter planes. That's why I use a 2 meter plane in AMA pattern =)

No it would just be fun if there were somewhere a bunch of us could meet with these types of plane and compete. These are the "Street Rods" of pattern planes, if you ask me. They are funtionally obsolete, but that doesn't mean they aren't really cool and represent an era that a lot of people would just as soon sweep under the carpet.

These are the planes that got me into pattern. These are the planes that brought me back to R/C after a 15 year absence. these are the planes that burned an image into my brain. Joe Bridi standing there with his UFO, with his sunglasses and Gold necklace....Hanno with his Curare, Wolfgang Matt with his Atlas, Dave Brown with his Tiporare (before he lost his freakin mind). 30 mph crosswinds and a 120 mph missle screaming into a perfectly smooth 8 point roll. Forgotten.

Now we get images of some old guy with a bunch of sticks, or a guy with an ARF Extra number 0938451385610. Bahh!

-Mike

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Confession:
I spent the first couple evenings with my Eclipse setting it up, adjusting the retracts, and running them up and down, up and down. I'm too embarassed to say how many times.

One of these days I'll grow up.

It's first showing at our club fun fly, it was the only plane in the air late afternoon. Gusty over 25 mph winds. Definately noticed a difference in wind penitration and handling with them up vs down in these conditions.

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

Don't loose hope Mike, in a few years "Senior" Pattern will be us guys, and the late '70's - early 80's planes will rule. Bring on the pipes and the retracts, I'm down with that. Heck, who said the oldies are not competitive against the 2 meter birds. I know a guy who won a round in a contest in Nashville with an Intruder 90 this year against a whole bunch of 2 meter birds. I think he had a little help from the wind though, and did not know any better.

All this talk makes me want to dust off my Tipo 40 kit and build it.

Greg "The Intruder"

Old 2 stroke pattern fun
 

HAHAhA

Yeah you were dialed that day Greg. Of course flying for $100 didn't hurt the ole incentive did it?

Ok I admit it, I just spent the last hour looking at these Curare plans. I just need to figure out which engine. I need a piped, pumped rear exhaust screamer. Any ideas? I mean available, not lying in someone's basement with the bearings rusted solid. I'm not taking the Webra out of the UFO.

Yep that's it, the Curare just entered the building qeue!!! Soon to be seen blistering through the box during practice at a pattern contest near you...

-Mike