YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Thought I would past along some imformation on testing of the new YS-170CDI Ignition engine. This is a standard 170 with the retofit of the ignition system. YS really outdid themselves on this setup. The intake rotor is now made from aluminum and has the ignition pickup magnet mounted into it. The hall effect sensor is in mounted in the fenolic backplate making for sealed internal installation. The ignition module is a standard battery powered unit with a wire mesh insulated high tension lead. Spark plug is a 1/4-32 standard unit that's been around for years.

Ignition power: I ran battery power directly from the receiver to save weight. I have flown both the Futaba G3 on 2048 and now the 2.4/R6014FS with the ignition powered directly from a spare port in the receiver for 6.0 volt power to the ignition and not one radio problem to date, something we would have never done years ago due to the scare of ignition noise through the radio.


My setup:
Cool power 30% LS fuel
APC 19-11 New prop that APC made me for this application, availbale now.
Addional weight the the airframe= 4.5 oz


Here is what I have observed:

Instant Starting
No detonation at anytime
No kickback
1400 RPM Idle, and smooth
Best down line braking seen to date
No flameouts
Much less smoke
Power is the same or better than glow plug
Fuel economy- 8 oz of fuel is all that is needed for P or F pattern. Currently with 20 oz of fuel at takeoff I can complete P and F patterns, 3-4 extra manuevers, land, taxi and still drain fuel from the tank. All on 30% LS Cool Power. At power you can hardly see any smoke what so ever. I have now installed a second overflow on the fuel tank to limit the fuel load for contest flights to 10 oz. I just saved a half pound!

I am so impressed I dont think I will ever run a glow plug for pattern again.

I'm Sold

Richard at YS tells me this fall for upgrade kits to retrofit current engines, so a little while longer to wait while more testing and manufacture of the systems takes place.

Thank You YS

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Great feedback, Bill. Obviously the motor is burning the fuel more efficiently now - do you think we'll see a lessening in the carboning of the exhaust valve?

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

bill, don't forget to honor us with your presence in the classic pattern forum once in a while.

david

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill,

I assume that we could retrofit the 1.60 also. ?Correct?

Thanks,

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill, Is there an estimate of what it's going to cost?
Greg Grigsby

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Thanks for the update Bill

Seems too good to be true. Cant wait for the release. does the spark plug simply screw into the existing plug location or are some modifications required?

Regards,

Peter

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

HI Bill

How many % oil do you use on your 170 DZ cdi ?
Steph Carrier used 7 % oil and 25 % nitro oil and now he is testing 5 % oil and 20 % nitro.
Regards

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Hi Papone,

What type of oil is Steph Carrier using?

Regards,

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Hi Peter

Fuel is made by Mecafuel (France)
It is synthetic oil. The same oil in standard fuel for YS.
regards

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

I think the answer has already been provided by Bill, according to his initial post he uses CP 30% Low Smoke Heli fuel which means 20% oil if not mistaken.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Some Answers,
Vincente, I think the upgrade will only be for the 170 at first, the 170's now have a different case so the retrofit may not fit 160, just 170's at first, might need a dedicated 160 unit and I do not know about the availablity of that.

Cost, do not know at this time, I just know that it will be worth it. It makes the handling of the engine wonderful.

Fuel, I have been Coolpower 30LS which has 20% oil.

I am only running the high speed needle at 3/4 of a turn out.

Bill

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill,

Dick Hanson had similar things to say about his experiments with spark ignition on the ST2300 a number of years ago. I am a 2 stroke guy, so never had to worry about the YS handling issues but I had wondered if spark ignition would make them easier to deal with. Since many people are now building glow powered 2M airframes well under 11lb, the extra weight of the ignition is not a terrible penalty to pay considering the returns. Just the fuel economy increase is worth it alone, with the cost of fuel where it is now.


Mark

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill what about the 170cdi running temperature. Is it significantly higher then the normal glow version? I mean at the lean setting you are running.

I made some experiments with a runtronic ignition on a YS140 years ago, and found it hade many positive effects (smoother running, no kick back etc). It could be run much leaner, like you have experienced, but temperature went up more then I expected. I felt it was a bit tricky to adjust the engine as there was less feedback on what was a good setting. I feared it would run to hot if the setting was to lean. Perhaps a built in temperature sensor could be useful (integrated with the cdi unit), or just a hand held IR thermo. I really would be scared to run a 170 cdi on 5% oil and a lean setting

Another thing I wonder is if you have had any problem with oil clogging up the spark plug during storage, causing problem to start the engine? I understand inverted spark plug engines can have this problem. Also if the engine gets soaked, the oil/fuel can kill the spark, causing difficulty in starting. I think this is all much worse on two strokes, but have you had any problems on the YS?

It’s a shame YS had to feel the pressure from electrics in order to start this development. It should have been done years ago.

/David

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Very interesting information and it makes a lot of sense to all of us who have thrown props in the air and damaged more than a few spinners because of YS kick back.

I have been thinking aabout the oil percentage, but I can not see how using a spark plug would allow to reduce the oil content, in fact being able to run with a leaner mixture will reduce the amount of oil entering the engine. On gas engines I understand that you can use a much lower oil content because of the lubricant properties of gasoline (not the case with methanol). Anybody can help explain this?

Thank you

Mundo

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

I think that the lower oil content in gas engines is related to the roller bearings located at both ends of the connecting rod rather than lubricating properties of the fuel...

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Reko/David

I do not know the temperature of the engine but it certainly does not seem hot at all, actually seems cooler than glow plug. I even set the needle too lean and flew it that way trying to find the perfect setting. Because it it does not set like a glow engine, it does not sag and overheat when too lean, just looses some power. It has shown no signs of overheating. I am runnng only 3/4 open on the high speed needle.

Fuel economy is unreal, I burned more fuel in the 1980's patterns with a YS60 SS than I do now.

I do have the engine baffled now that was not shown in the first picture, I use the YS shipping foam to baffle the engine. Tack glued to the fuse and case of the engine. This needs to be done on all YS installations, really helps in the hotter weather.

Bill

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill,
how is the vibration on your YS with the CDI. looks like this will be the way to go

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Hi Eabmex

With a glow, the moment and duration of ignition of fuel is not controled.
When there is compression, ignition starts and temperature in cylinder increases.
So oil is used not only to lubrifiate but also to refresh. That what is oil is about 20 or 22 %.
With Electronic Spark, ignition is at the good moment. So oil is only used to lubrifiate.
15 to 17 % methanol replaces oil and gives to engine more power.

Regards

Sorry for my bad english

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

The more I read, and the more I hear, the more interested I'm getting :D

I think just the fuel economy alone is WAY more than worth the price difference. being that 30% heli is usually over $20 per gallon (varies greatly but that's about average) that's a HUGE savings right there alone.

I'd be very interested in some IR temp readings about 30 seconds after shut down.

Also the lack of a smoke trail would sort of close the advantage gap on electrics in that department. Currently you have to run a little lean, play with exhaust diffusers etc.

The extra weight might be a disadvantage on some planes, but on better designs I don't think this is a problem at all.

Ok I'm officially interested now!

-Mike

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Todd,
The vibration is much less, idle shake is just not there like before, still rocks a little. Running the new YS mount with the big diameter ring. I keep having to lean it the more it gets broken in, needles are going to be closed soon, down to 5/8 open on the main and out past flush on the regulator. 7-8oz of fuel for either P09 or F09, 30% and 19-11 prop.

Bill

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Bill,

What would the total engine weight be, with the ignition included?


Mark

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Hi Bill

Do you test fuel with 5% oil and 20 % nitro ?
Carrier uses APC 18,1x12. Idle is about 600 t/mn.
Regards

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Have you some pics...to show how is inside the motor ?
where is the magnet system ?
where are wires ?
many pics please !!! we want understand !

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Hi Voldos

You speak english but you are french !
No pics for you; it's top secret !
Regards

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

My personal experience: YS .61 AR, long stroke, rear exhaust runs for 17 minutes from a 16 ounces tank !!

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Here are some pics,

I don't think there is anything "secret" about it lol :)

http://f3a.sakura.ne.jp/radiocontrol...bbyShow01.html

Its looks to me a simple hall (mag pickup) sensor in in the backplate, probably picking up a mag source on the crank pin.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

I recall reading something about the disc valve being replaced with an aluminium version. I guess the crank pin is the logical choice for the magnetic source.

From what I have read this development sounds too good to be true. It will probably force some electric flyers back to glow unless lipo flight packs take a sudden drop in price because the running costs of a DZ170 CDI will be halved. Very exiting to say the least

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

They may have replaced the disc valve with AL to make the mag source for the sensor more visible....and to save some weight at the same time :)

Switch back to glow.....not unless FAI bans electrics from competition :D There are guys playing with some packs that are 1/3 the cost of name brand stuff, we will see how they hold up though.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

This looks amazing guys. I want one now! Where do I sign up??

Joe

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Here are some pics of the conversion from a Japanese website [link]http://www1.plala.or.jp/konchan/170CDI.htm[/link]

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Actually, I am sure CH Ignitions could make up a system like that. They used to convert glow engines back in the late '80's, I still remember the ads in RCM.

Be aware, however, that spark plug they are using on the 1.70dz is EXPENSIVE and fragile.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

H'mmm. 60 years of progress in technology and we cannot build a reasonably priced and rugged sparkplug? Maybe someone should bringback the Champion VR2(?) or VR3(?) from the 40's. Very good plugs that worked well even with the old simple coil and condenser ignitions systems on 3 volts.

John W.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

[/quote]

H'mmm. 60 years of progress in technology and we cannot build a reasonably priced and rugged sparkplug? Maybe someone should bringback the Champion VR2(?) or VR3(?) from the 40's. Very good plugs that worked well even with the old simple coil and condenser ignitions systems on 3 volts.

John W.
[/quote]


It's time to bring back those big toss away cylindrical Eveready batteries for the glow plugs again ... :D

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

There are lots of cheap, reliable spark plugs out there. But none of them fit into a glow plug hole...[:@]

The problem is the plug is the same size as a glow plug and is a small volume, niche market item. I believe someone on the Gassers forum mentioned they are around $15 each. I have no idea how long they last. Maybe Bill can report his results on the 170?

Mark

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

$15 is only about twice the cost of an OS 'F' plug or the YS equivalent. How long do they last (# of flights on average) in a DZ? It seems a sparkplug would last a lot longer than a glowplug which has a pretty fragile element that has to 'glo' continuously for the duration of the run time where the spark plug is only 'firing' once every other revolution. Very interesting engineering effort on the part of YS. I wish I could buy an engine ignition device for my car that would double the mileage!!! :D
-Will

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Spark plug cost? None of them fit the glow plug hole? No problem.

You can buy these 1/4-32 spark plugs all day long for $17.00 each. They have been around for over 60 years! Made right here is the US of A. On 30% fuel using 1/2 to 2/3 the fuel a standard glow plug engine would use you could buy a new plug every 2 gallons of fuel due to just the fuel savings, crazy argument. I have not needed another spark plug, still on the original, just checked the gap after 120 flights and no measurable change. You will go through a couple glow plugs to every spark plug, but I have not used up a spark plug yet so I do not know the true life limit yet. The quality of idle and transition on a glow plug engine is dependant on the element being in good shape and not covered in, what I call "frost".

I have a C&H ignition, the problem is getting the magnet into to the hub using a nose ring. Being internal as YS did it makes this a non issue and consealed.

Bill

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

The plugs are not fragile in use, but they are fragile to handle. That is what I meant. The 1/4-32 plugs are readily available, as Bill mentioned.

Is the mag placed into the cam? I wonder how to properly set the timing on a 4 stroke otherwise. Don't want it firing on the wrong stroke!

I know CH has converted many 2-stroke and 4-stroke glow engines so they must have a method.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

Will, your car's computer already does this for you.

If your car ran on glow methanol and you converted it to spark on methanol you would see a similar increase in mileage because you could lean the mixture without risk of detonation.

Methanol can tolerate a wider stoichiometric range than can gasoline before autoignition occurs.

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

I just went back and reread Bill's original post. I didn't realize YS was going to start selling this retrofit. I thought it was a one-off, which is the reason I mentioned trying CH Ignitions. Sorry for the confusion!

Bill, do you know anthing about the timing curve of the EI system? I assume it has retarded timing at lower rpm, advancing as the revs increase. My big gas planes are wonderful to start and won't backfire because the plug won't fire until the piston is travelling downward (I think it fires at 2* after TDC, and advances to 28* BTDC after about 4000 rpm).

The 600 rpm idle and low fuel consumption sounds phenominal!

RE: YS-170CDI Flight Report
 

stoichiometric now thats a big word!!! lol

gary