profmb

Hi all,
Perhaps the most pragmatic start would be to establish a Google Group and then we could use this to organise ourselves?

Within this group we could:

a) Bring together the experts that would wish to contribute.
b) Design the template for the How to Guide.
c) Document all sources of information from which we could develop the How to Guide.

Think of this as a private space within which we could organise ourselves.

In parallel with this I will work out the best way of setting up a Wikki resource for us.

Please could all of those that wish to help make this happen either mail me or let me know through this thread? I will then update the thread informing everyone of progress.

Thanks

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

Ok, the end of January for Video 103...I hope it isn't any later then that??
I am amazed at the few people that live in my area that have a 14Z but, you look at the type aircraft they are flying they are all simple four control planes.
When I got my new radio last fall and saw what kind of education I was going to have I started asking how to mix and set up, what I would call a standard warbird type airplane and they all gave me this blank look....with...."well I don't get into that type stuff".
I do have one person a hundred miles away that flies my type of stuff and he told me to load my things up and he will show me how it's done.
Being the kind of person I am I will try the Futaba website and a few calls first.
Right now I am in the building phase..and nothing else. With what I find on here and Bax's website I hope to hit the ground running?
I will admit I came from a different brand of radio, the programing is different and I need too get that out of my head.

Silent-AV8R

MX240 - what exactly do you want to do? The way to approach using this radio is to first decide what you want to do, i.e. mix elevator to compensate for flaps, THEN determine how best to accomplish that.

It is much more difficult to go looking for features and then search for the use. The use drives the programming.

I use my 14MZ for everything from a ParkZone Corsair all the way up to my pattern planes and full house thermal duration gliders. I find the programming easy and intuitive. But I have been using Futaba for some time. It is a lot like riding a bicycle. Very difficult at first and then all of a sudden it is as easy as pie.

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

Like I said I am in the building stage right now....but since you asked I have played around with the side slider for use of my Robart air brakes. Like Bax said earlier the center is off...how do I get one end of the throw to be "off" and then slide to the other end and that is "on"?
On my brand X radio this is the way the side sliders worked...0 to 100% Half way is 50%
Jim

woodbender

Profmb, count me in.

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

yep, me too...but not sure how I could help you Profmb as I can't even program my toy radio.

malcolmholt

[size=6]
[quote]ORIGINAL: Skaluf

rfk1381,


Additional guides to programming have been, and are being discussed. All, please understand your concerns/suggestions are being listened to by Hobbico. The video series I have been doing was started as a result of requests received from customers.

I don't know what the future will hold right now, but Hobbico did not become the company we are today by not listening to our customers.

Steve



I welcome the recognition by Hobbico that there are customer concerns with the manual which need to be listened to. For what they are worth here are my thoughts on the matter.

There are three elements to the use of these transmitters. First it is necessary to understand which parts of the transmitter screen or touch sensor to tap, press or manipulate in order to select different functions and enter values. Secondly it is necessary to understand the principles of what each function does and how values entered change the ways in which the servos respond to control inputs. Finally, having understood the principles involved, the owner has to apply them to the needs of his/her individual aircraft.

I can only speak for the 8FG manual but it deals with the first element very well. Indeed, if I have a criticism, it is that it is too repetitive with a diagram of the touch-sensor on almost every page. I fully agree with Bax that it is not reasonable to expect any manual to deal with the third element by providing a blow by blow account of how to set up every possible type of model. That must be left to the individual owner but this is only possible once the principles have been understood. Unfortunately it is in dealing with this middle element that the manual is woefully inadequate.

In most cases there is no explanation. Look, for example, at the right hand column of page 75. It is all about how to input values relating to Trim Mode, Linear Curve setting and 5-point Curve setting in Program Mix. Once you have read how to operate the touch sensor this information is unnecessary. What would be far more useful would be short paragraphs to explain the purpose of Trim Mode, Linear Curve setting and 5-point Curve setting and the effect of any values entered. (There’s no need for anyone to respond helpfully. I do understand. I got there eventually, despite the manual, by sitting patiently for hours, systematically entering values, and checking their effect on the servo monitor).

In some cases the manual is just plain wrong. For example, �If MIX or FUNC mode is turned on, the Instructor can make corrections while the student has control�. If this were the case MIX and FUNC would be exactly the same which, on my transmitter, they are clearly not.

Finally, where explanations are given they are often so poorly expressed as to be unintelligible to anyone who does not already understand how the transmitter works. For example the Function Menu allows Channel Replacement. For those of you not sure what it does here is the explanation provided. “When the Channel is replaced by using this channel replacement function, the replacement is automatically done as far as setting data (ATV, SUB-TRIM, REVERSE, F/S, and F-F/S, etc) set to those channels respectively.� End of explanation.

Good people at Futaba, perhaps you will now understand why, given the choice between reading your manual or chewing my own foot off, I am already salivating at the prospect.

Seriously though, what is needed is a re-written manual which explains not only HOW to select functions and input values but also WHY. Explain to us the purpose of things like linking, offset and 5-point curves and many of us will be able to figure out how to apply them to our models. While helpful to a degree, the production of yet more unconnected FAQs and videos is not the answer. In the long run it is also a very inefficient way of providing instructions.

As a long-time Futaba user I love the 8FG. Sadly, as a club instructor, I now advise those new to the hobby that they may struggle to understand the manual and recommend that they take a look at other brands. I know that I am not alone in this. Come on, Futaba. You have a great product. Help people get the best out of it.

airega1

My Feedback: (204)

The way I see it is, the manual shows you what the radio does and is capable of doing, it just doesn't explain HOW to do it

airega1

My Feedback: (204)

This is sort of like back in 1985 I bought a 9VAP when it first came out, so I went from a Futaba 7FGK gold set to a 9VAP, Talk about shock! I still own this 9VAP today and it's in my best airplanes too, and about to be retired to a 10C, gotta love that programming of the original 9C

profmb

MX240 your role like mine could be to review the proposed user guides...what do you reckon?

beto9

My Feedback: (1)

OK, we should get going.

To setup a Google group you have to... do what?

I propose to start discussing the organization of the manual. I hope there is an educator in this group to help with this. Or we could emulate the manuals we have used when they were of help. Should we also include a "How to" (another name for FAQ) but relevant to each subject as we explain it along?

We should also count on the cooperation of the people who do not feel qualified to cooperate: as we release pages or chapters they should comment on their comprehension of the material.

Photographs? The problem with this is which radio screen we choose to document. Can screens be photographed easily? I will test that today with my 12FG. I wonder if Futaba/Hobbico have a program to capture screens.

I hope that Futaba/Hobbico understand the phenomenal commercial advantages of this type of undertaking. As we have read, many people are drifting to other brands because of what is discussed here.

And yes, the videos and FAQ's in Futaba's site are of great help.
'

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

Yes I can do that..and have this program out here or someplace on the web "in the open" so anyone can join in.
I can see why Futaba has their "private" page but I seem to be getting better advice from people that are not on it??

I understand there may be many ways to program a control with this software.....BUT, there has to be ONE/BEST way of getting there.
While muddling through mine this fall to get a test airplane in the air too check new recievers I saw the many ways to achieve the same results.....But, in the back of my mine I am thinking....what else am I screwing-up to get what I want??
This so-called Windows software is what is called industrial software without any help screens. I am sure the person who designed this software also wrote the instruction book.....very simple....for him

profmb

Hi all,
Thanks beto9..I will set up a Google Group and in doing so those that have 'put their hands up' will get an email invite to join it.

My background is a software designer and visiting professor at a UK university so I can at least help to provide some guidance here. I am also a Partner in a specialist technology company and we could host a Wiki once we have something to publish.

Concerning the screens:

1. These could be photographed - but not convinced they would reproduce very well - does one of you wish to have a go at this? Once I have the Google Group set up we could then use Google Docs to paste the images into. I will look at creating a template for these if this would help - any offers?
2. Screens could be mocked up in something like Adobe Illustrator - this will take time - but I could do this, if we decide that 1. is not satisfactory.
3. Futaba might have something like a Futaba Emulator (in software design for gadgets like mobile phones, manufacturers provide this sofware for developers to design screens to work with mobile phones) these would enable us to replicate the screen very quickly and would be easier to annotate - does anyone have contacts with Futaba that could ask this question?

Any other thoughts?

Cheers

pflynn73

My Feedback: (20)

I bought the 12 FG and I have really struggled with it. Finally have it programmed. But, I cant remember what I did 6 months ago. It is easy to get confused with the 12 FG manual. I am a computer idiot, but, need the feel and quality of the Futaba.

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

Here is a picture of the servo monitor while trying to get my side slider to work right. Teken of the screen with a simple cheap camera.
No flash as it causes screen glare.

JOHNS3D

My Feedback: (5)

just imagine a video of  "how to setup your bip or mono airplane in 2 hours" lol, after trying to convince my self of getting a 12FGA or 12Z, somethings i feel i need to think twice... i remember Bob Finless videos on helis and it was really amazing..basics stuff that will help you to make the rest by your self

On acrobatic airplanes there is not too much things to do, setup end points, servo travel, speed, dual rates or triple rates, check throttle and in the end trim your airplane...maybe some mixed involved, my point is that we should start for the basic setups and then go deeper.

OMG, dont know what to do....btw i have a 10C

Silent-AV8R

I think a lot of people are getting the wrong idea here. The high end Futaba radios are not awful to program. Once you learn the logic and lingo they are a piece of cake. Trust me, the 9Z was a nightmare, these new radios are a breeze. The problem I see is that people are afraid to start until they know every single thing the radio can do. I've had my 14MZ for going on 6 years now and I do not everything it can do, but I do know that it does everything that I want it to do.

profmb

"Once you learn the logic and lingo they are a piece of cake"

Absolutely that is the issue! So we have to document this and I am sure that once this has been accomplished then life will be much easier for us 'Dummies'. It is because the manuals contain none of the logic and an explantation of the lingo that we are working on putting this right...

Silent -AV8R would you be willing to help us get across that hurdle? Your expertise would be most helpful...

Cheers

JOHNS3D

My Feedback: (5)

sounds really good!!!!

Howard

My Feedback: (55)

A few comments: I do think it is worth establishing why there is serious impetus to do this and to be clear that it is not because these radios are hard to program. It took me a year to finally see the light with my 14mz and once I did it was very clear that the programming was straight forward. However, I have read every owners manual for every radio that is currently being sold in the US and the Futaba high end radio manuals are by far the worse. Do yourself a favor and read the Airtronics new SD10-G owners manual the manual is almost reason enough to buy that radio. If we could create this same easy to read and understand type of manual for the Futaba high end radios it would be a very positive and valuable addition to our hobby.

My second comment is that it is to everyone's advantage if we can keep the dialogue and manual development alive and visible within an RCU thread because of the thoughts and contributions of folks all over the world.

Count me in with respect to the development and writing. Keep on going very worthwhile project.

Howard

profmb

Hi Howard
Thanks for your support...really appreciated. I will PM you so that you can join the Google Group that I have established. We are accumulating a rich mix of 'dummies' and experts alike, and I feel confident that we will achieve our objectives.

I am sure that you are correct that the issue is not one for Futaba alone. When I first bought the 12FG many people said that it is the best on the market, whether that is true or not, I am really looking forward to being able to get the best out of it.

Cheers

profmb

Hi all,
A note to update this thread on progress. We have now established a Google Group and with three further requests to join we will have 11 members comprising experts and users. Work has already commenced on a Glossary and we are about to commence work in structuring the Dummies guide. One of the team is in the process of photographing each screen to be used as the basic reference for the guide. If anyone else wishes to contribute to the group please PM through here.
Cheers

rarefind666

My Feedback: (1)

My hat is off to you!!! I am glad to see this keep going, I wish I could help.....Maybe I will get something out it if it works out.(If I can join your group??) And I will finally get to use my 12FG. It is sad the Futaba makes the owners do this!!!

Friar_Tuck2

Hey Guys,

I earned my keep as a programmer for many years and still program for myself when aeronautical design problems arise.

Now I was going to use the Futaba S-Bus system along with a Futaba 12 FG Transmitter for both of my new Competition Aerobatics Planes for this season, but after reading the post's here and a couple of the other threads, I decided that I would be wise to dig into 12 FG's Instruction Manual.

After doing so I see exactly what you are complaining about!  The manual is not written for the average RC'er but for a Programmer!

Although I will not have any trouble with the programming, what I do object to is the fact that there is so much repetition in trying to set the Transmitter up!

The problem with the programming is that Futaba did an Unprofessional job of implementing the software which is is used to guide one through the process of entering the information that is used to implement the programing sequences themselves.

It is plainly, a sloppy implementation of a very simple taskThe only thing additional I can think to say is:

Silent-AV8R

When telling Futaba they should be ashamed keep in mind that nobody from Futaba actually monitors these forums. Hobbico/Hobby Services people do an d they are NOT Futaba. They are employees of the North American distributor for Futaba products. So the people you are mad at are in Japan and likely will never see you post.

While it is true that Hobbico can give feedback to Futaba, they actually have very little influence on what Futaba does, or does not do.