martno1fan

Hi Andy i dont know what the problems were but im sure idealist(ERNST) can help you there,apparently some guys on that site built one and had lots of problems with the design.maybe he will help clear it up for you.how far along are you with your build? i wish i spoke german as i want to read all i can about the nightmare too.hes offered me help with my build and says anyone wishing to build his boat only need say thanks .

cowana

So far I have made the mast, rigging and sails, made the central hull and one outer one, and modified a Futaba 3003 servo into a servo that rotates 8 times for the spinnaker halyard. I will take and post some pics at the weekend.

martno1fan

look forward to the pics mate keep us posted.

Idealist

Hi again!

The first the plans are of a real 60 ft Trimaran, designed by Nigel Irens - a famous UK-Multihull-Designer!


The problems of the 'Ghost Trian':

The 'Ghost' suffers from the same design error as these two other models: 'Trimarine' and 'Triana'!
Both have too little volume in the bowarea of the floats!!!

Idealist

Here is a sketch of the relation between the 'Ghost'-Floats and mine -
and many more sketches and pics to show the main principles of my own designs!

Unlike my own designs, floats of the 'Ghost', the 'Trimarine' and the 'Triana' as well -
have too little Volume in the Bow-area, their widest cross-section is too far aft and their stern areas have to much Volume!

So the higher the wind pressure gets, the sooner these tris - and similar designs - will flip over, as their leeward floats are pushed below the surface!!!

Idealist

Multihull-News:

Right now, I'm re-starting to build Kits and Ready-to-sail Models for the 4 ft. class (Mini40 and/or F48)
and also for the 1 Meter Class!!!

Fibreglass/Epoxy, Carbonfibre/Epoxy and also - quite soon - there will be a first kit of a 1 Meter Tri in ABS available!!!

Pics of the building process of the NEW prototypes will soon be at:
http://community.webshots.com/user/boatbuilder

If you are interested, please contact my directly under:
[email protected]
-...- for time schedules, prizes and shippingfees!
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

I'm very sorry, but these beautiful curved crossbars are only possible in Carbon/Epoxy with foam-inlet!!!

martno1fan

hi ernst im glad you replied ,i was thinking when i do my build of using two peices of alluminium tube for the mast and having it so it brakes down into two halves for transporting.i can get 12.7 mm tubing for this 1/2" also can i use the same tubing for cross beams? or even square tubing might be better.i was also thinking of doing the build using planks on frames appart from the bow section which i would make from foam.the hulls will then be covered in glass cloth what weight cloth would you suggest.also will a sail arm servo fit inside the hull or would i need to put the arm above deck?.also what sevo would you suggest? what torque will it need etc.i dont want to break the bank though if possible.any help you can offer is much appreciated on this.

Idealist

12.7 mm alloy profile for the mast should be fine, but alloy crossbars will need at least 20mm diameter and 1 mm thickness!

A standard 3.5 kg servo will be fine for steering, and a big quarterscale servo (18 -24 kg) should be fine for the sails as well!
And YES - they'll fit into the mainhull!!!
The 'Hitech'-Sailwinch works fine too, but there are also better - and more expensive - sailwinches available!
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No matter if you build with 3 mm balsa strip planking or with foam, 2-3 layers of 80 - 93 gr class cloth should be fine for covering.
The plugs - balsa or foam - need to be perfecly smooth bevore covering - otherwise you need to do a LOT of sanding on the hard fibreglass surfaces then -...- preciseness pays off - definitely!!!

But make sure to add 2,3 or even 4 layers in the high stress areas or the forces will tear your boat apart!!!

cowana

I havent heard about the ghost train pitchpoline before. Someone told me that if youmount the batteries 5cm back then the plan says, it will never pitchpole.

martno1fan

thanks for the tip yes i realized the cross beams needed to be stronger doh .i was told by someone that putting a wing on the rudder is a good idea to stop the diving issues ?.something like a spitfire shaped wing put upside down i was told by someone who raced multi hulls.by the way andy i was also told the lighter the floats are the better as this stops the boat wanting to dig in in the turn which is what can happen especially if the floats are heavy.

cowana

What is a good thing to use for mastheadboyancy? How big should it be?

Idealist

Both of you - cowana and martno1fan - are writing about 'someone said to me -....-' ->

-> Who is this 'someone'?

-> Does he really have RC-Multihull experience?

-> Is this 'someone' a relyable source of informations?
__________________________________________________ ____________

I'm definitely willig to answer your technical questions,
but I'm unwilling to 'fight' against 'said-to-be's' or 'shadows in the dark'! -
__________________________________________________ ____________

Please tell me the true source(s) of your informations,
tell I will tell you the truth about them!

cowana

For me (and think for martno1fan), this someone is the general views that I have heard on forums. For example, I found a forum topic that was all about stopping the ghost train pitchopling. It had several people whosaid moving the batteries back helped.

There is no ultimate 'someone', althouh Dick Lemke'seems to be the trimaran guru. I have been talking to him abit, and he has a lot of credibility.

If we are doubting you, or contradicting you, it is not because we are trying to prove you wrong, it is because we are trying to find out the correct information.

Thanks a lot and sorry for the misunderstanding,

Andrew

martno1fan

did i miss something here? did i ever contradict you or say anything to disagree with you?.i was just saying someone mentioned to me about putting a wing on the rudder of the boat that someone is a reliable source his name is ANDREW WRIGHT here is his site .he makes sails and has raced multihulls.[link]http://www.windpowersails.8m.com/[/link]
no one was trying to say anything against you ernst least of all me all we are doing is trying to get as much info as we can from everyone.i too have talked to dick lemke about multi,s in general.i appreciate all your help and advice ernst i hope thats clear?.

martno1fan

andy did you take any pics of your build yet im looking forward to seeing them?.

cowana

soon.

Idealist

Sorry - guys! -

this wasn't meant against any of you!

But this 'socalled' guru had started a flaming war against me four years ago in some other forums.
In one case I even got banned because of him and some of his 'friends'!
Maybe I get a little paranoid, if I just read his name!

Unfortunately he himself had never ever built or sailed an rc-multihull -
all his 'knowledge' is purely secondhand and/or theoretical! -
But he has the ability, to present himself as 'very experienced'!
__________________________________________________ ________________

I definitely accept informations of persons like Andy Wright, as he also has his own first hand experience!
__________________________________________________ _______________

Fact is, that every rc- multihull can flip over, but this point of no return will happen much earlier for a 'Ghost Train',
as the error already happened during the designprocess! - About 15 Years ago!

Yes, the 'Ghost'-Plans are 15 years old - stoneage actually -....-

I learned from that, and designed my boats in a different way - just to avoid that problem!
And by now I'm building my twentysecond RC-trimaran since 1994 -
all of them are selfdesigned.

cowana

Where I plan to sail is a small lake with no waves. If it does flip, it doesn't really matter.

By the way, as i am sure one of your 22 boats had masthead boyancy, how do you do this? High density foam?

martno1fan

dont worry about it ernst id allready seen some of the posts about what you mention.i can only go on my own experience of people and prefer to make up my own mind about individuals.as ive said i appreciate all your advice and any help no matter what anyone else says .i have seen there are others in the uk who have built your boat i cant remember the names of the individuals right now ive also seen people on THAT forum say how well your boat sailed etc.no need to be paranoid here mate !!,now back to what andy just asked about mast head bouyancy id also like any help or advice you have on this too.thanks again.

Idealist

Masthead buoyancy:

1) Fully rotateable on a steel or brass pin on top of the mast!

2) An aerodynamic shape like a Zeppelin -> 16 to 20 cm long and 4 to 5 cm Diameter!

3) Little vertical wings on the tail, 5cm high -> useful as wind indicator as well.

4) Made of foam with one layer of 80gr. glasscloth, or scale tanks from modelairplanes made of ABS (!!!)
Or you make a simple female mould from an existing keelbulb from a monohull yacht model -
and make 2 layers of 80 gr glass!
___________________________

Does this help?

Idealist

The only german production multihull, the 'Butterfly' of GRAUPNER - and a bit smaller than 48 inches - was the only production trimaran made of ABS, with alloy crossbars - weight 3,3 kg ready-to-sail ->

Unfortunately the floats where too slim and the A-rigg sailarea was only 0,5m2, instead of 0,9m2!

-> and it had such a mast buoyancy made of ABS - 16 x 4 cm!

I have checked the german net, but I didn't find a single pic of the boat with that 'thing' installed on the mast top!
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Maybe if you do a search with google -> pictures -> butterfly -> trimaran -...- or something like that!


PS:
I just read in the 'other' forum,
even William Hojnacki, who had four 'Nightmares', and by now sold all of them again, liked the performance of my boats a lot!
He just din't find anybody else, who DARED to sail these boats - and he didn't like to sail alone!!!

Idealist

I just found a pic from france!!!

DONS BOAT WORKS

My Feedback: (3)

Thank You for the picture.

Don M.

martno1fan

thanks for the pic ernst now i can understand how to make it work.i think there is a guy making your hulls from moulds somewhere im sure i saw that somewhere any ideas on this ernst?.im no expert on designing boats ernst but i do have an idea of the basics and im sure the thiner the floats are the less they are going to float when pressure is exerted on them.its common sense to me,im sure what you say about your floats versus slimmer ones is also correct .by the way i trained and worked as a boat builder when i left school.i built quite a few klinker built hulls mostly small tenders for larger craft or even as life boats for ships.but mainly repaired larger boats either wood or fibre glass.fitted out many a barge both working and for the pleasure boater .i enjoy working with wood as thats my trade or was!!so my boat will be balsa covered with glass ,im toying with the idea of using foam block to build the floats.as im using balsa for the main hull i supose i wont need as much glass fibre to cover it apart from the main stress areas .i may substitute balsa for ply in these areas with extra layers of cloth or tape to add more strength.thanks again for all the help and advice.
i think i found the guys name its IAN SAMIS he bought the moulds or the boats from hoj i was told .

cowana

Ths shows the cross beams well.