After building rc planes from kits for over 30 years i decided I would like to try scale competition. I am going to build a Topflight Gold Edition P51 B from the limited edition kit I purchased over 10 years ago.
A few questions:
Is a 4 stroke a better choice than a 2 stroke for competition?
Are the Robart retracts adequate for my first attempt at scale competition?
Is a monokotefinish OK?

I am planning to try "RC Sport Scale - Sportsman" Is this the correct level to try competition? I like to build so do not want to try "fun scale"

thanks!</p>

Hi, First thing to do is find a three view you like and compare it to your plans. You will probably find that the horizontal and vertical stabs have been slightly enlarged. Leave em! Flying is half the score. The Robarts will be great and Monokote would probably be OK.... Why not try glass? A lot of peaople are glassing with 3/4 oz cloth and Minwax Polycrillic. Lighter and less mess than resin (I like Resin however). Also, pick the exact plane you want to build before starting so you can incorporate any nuances of that aircraft. Even if your not ready, attend a day at the Nats or the qualifier in Columbus and ask lots of questions!! Most important, have fun!!! That's what it's all about. I keep going cause I love the people. Pick the motor that gives you good power and you can bury the best.

Dave Johnson

That is the best class to start in. I think your plane will be fine. The first step is to show up with a plane. It takes a couple of trips to get a handle on what is going on. When it coms to flying scale make it reliable. Great planes that dead stick all the time will not place well; pick the engine you are most comfortable running. I have seen Monokote finishes win; it is dependent on plane and applier. As I said show up with a plane. I spend most of my time trying to talk with the experts and looking at their planes, also helps with nerves.

thanks guys. I am going to model it after Excalibur III that hangs in the Smithsonian. I look at it every time I visit the museum and have taken the pictures I need. This particular P51 has a very interesting history as a Bendix racer and set numerous records after the war. It was originally owned by Paul Mantz after WWII. I am going to finish it in the post war color red color scheme.
I think I will try the glass method.
I have a Saito 100 that runs well so i think I will use it

One of my favorite P51s. My dad brought me back the Smithsonian book on it in the early 80's. Great history.

Get a good set of 3-views and pictures with the color and markings of the plane you are modeling. The judges will expect that your markings are like the ones in the pictures. If the plane has a radio antenna, include that too. They will deduct points when things don't match the documenttation.

Hello,

My recommendation would be to get a copy of the rules and study them. It is a free down load on the AMA. You will avoid unpleasant surprises if you know what your getting into ahead of time.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2...aleCLandRC.pdf

The Accuracy of Outline and the Color and Markings judges sit 15' from your model and do not move. You position the model for them. While the Craftsmanship judge can walk around your model but gest no closer then 4'.

Get all your documentation together first and then build your model to match the documentation. Oh, one last thing.

Have fun.

Ripley

drav8r
I would first do what bobripley suggested......get the rules from AMA and read and become familiar with them FIRST......
by the way, what everyone else has said is right on the money. Very good advice!
Bob Violet makes a set of mechanical retracts and Robart has Robo Struts which match up quite well.
I have acquired a partially framed Gold Edition P-51 this past month (I bought out an aquaintence's r/c stuff) with this retract/strut combination.....it looks very good.
I won't finish this plane because I am locked into the aircraft of WWI. If you are interested shoot me an email to [email protected] I am sure we can work something out.
Welcome to the world of scale competition! Like Dave said, the people are what keeps bringing me back! Great bunch of folks!
Cheers,
Art Shelton

Drav8r

Welcome to scale competition. I too am new to competition. Iwill relate my tale of how it worked for me. First off I was very lucky to live near Dave Johnson. We met a couple of years ago and he has been mentoring me along for the past three years or so. We started out by doing a group (of 2) build of one of his designs. All along the way he gave me advice on building and getting ready for competition. A golden nuget of Dave's is to pick a three view and dont look at any others. There are little differences in drawings that will drive you insane. He was right and has to remind me from time to time not to look at other three views.

Well Iam a slow builder so my plane was not ready for competition by the time Ihad hoped. Knowing this Dave recruited me to call for him at a couple of contests. This experience was huge. Igot to see how the contest worked, meet the people, and be involved all without being terribly nervious. Iwas nervous calling for Dave but not as bad as if I were flying.

Last summer my plane was finally finished but there was no time to practice with it in time for the contest season. So Dave flew team scale for me and hooked me up with other team scale pilots. Idid ok last summer as the builder half of a team scale entry in both AMAnats and Scalemasters. And Idrew a little bit closer to flying myself. At the end of the season last summer Dave informed me that the group was tired of carrying me and I would have to fly this season myself. Fair enough. (Dave was only half kidding) So out of the nest Iwent. Iflew indoor in the E-fest scale event last month and brother was Inervous. Ishook so much my figure 8 looked more like a treble clef than an 8. But Iwas blooded.

So what is the point of this. Iguess there isnt one. Ijust thought relating my experience would be helpful in some way. Icant say enough about the guys I met through scale flying (well building). I have been very lucky to have Dave as a scale mentor. He is also now a close friend. Ithink having a mentor has been the single biggest advantage Ihave had. I highly recommend it.

Oh and when you are done flying WWII models you can "move up"to WWI

Best Regards,
Dave Semeraro

Thanks for the advice guys. I am pretty excited about starting my first scale project.
I think the Violet retracts are the way to go.
Will post a picture of my project once I am underway.
I am sure I will have some questions, primarily regarding finishing details and techniques.
anthony

What sorts of RC kits have you been building for the past 30 years? The way I see it, there's "building" and "scale building" and "flying" and "scale flying" (and add to these categories "building to compete" and "flying in competitions"). You sound like you've got a lot of experience with building and flying. Have you built "scale" models or have they been more the "fun-fly/aerobatic" types. The reason I ask is that, as a first scale model, you might want to pick a model that lets you use the building skills you already have instead of requiring you to learn a whole new set. You comment that you think you'll try the glass method suggests to me that you may not have done this before, which suggests that this might be your first WWII warbird. Going from having never built "scale" (if that's the case) to planning to do "scale competition" is definitely jumping in on the deep end.

I'm not saying don't do it. Just be prepared for a lot of dog-paddling! Oh and "scale" doesn't have to mean WWII.

"Oh and "scale" doesn't have to mean WWII."

Abu, you are absolutely correct, but if you watch the contests, you will almost never see a civilian offering win. Heavy metal (WWII) does it 99.9% of the time, unfortunately, since there are sooooo many greaty civilian planes out there to model.

Les

Anthony

Icompeted in two contests in 2010. At the AMAnats there were no firsts for WWII. Team was won by a Fokker DVII, Designer by a Scotish Bulldog, Expert by Piper Arrow and Sportsman by a Pitts Special. The Scalemasters was swept by Albatros DVs in three of the four classes with a citabria winning the other class. Data from two clsases is not comprehensive proof of anything I guess. The point of this is that any model can win. Build to your documentation and fly a prototypical flight and you will be in the hunt with a cub or a B-17. Build the airplane you love not the one you think will give you the best chance to win. Love of that model will get you through the tedious stages in the build. Dive in the deep end. You will have help when you show up at the contest and during the build if you ask for it either on line or at a flyin. Above all, have fun. Enjoy the build, the flying, the competition, and the banquet after the meet.

Do post up your build thread. I love reading them and seeing what others are doing. Dave and Iposted our Albatros thread and answered lots of questions. Ihope seeing my work warts and all helped some people out.

So are you building a giant scale mustang or the smaller version? Idont recall which. Ibought the b model conversion kit for the top flite 60 size mustang a couple of years ago because Ithought they would not be available. Ihave yet to buy the kit itself. Ilove a b model mustang. Iwould like to do either Bud Anderson's old crow (overdone Iknow) or a Tuskegee red tail mustang. There are lots of schemes to pick from. And then there is the question of straight canopy or malcolm hood. Aw man now you got me wanting a mustang.

Best,
Dave S

drav8r, welcome to scale competition!

To answer your questions:

1/ a 4 stroke is probably better for your flying score, it won't sound perfect but most judges I know prefer the sound of a 4 stroke over a whiney 2 stroke. The problem is a 4 stroke will be taller & harder to hide in a P-51 which may reflect on your static score.
The muffler will be easier to hide.

2/ yes, providing they are a suitable type, Robart makes many different retracts. Consider wire legs rather than struts on a model this size & dress them up to look like struts. They will take a pounding & are less likely to rip out than struts & easier to fix at a comp. Make sure you can make the retract mounts in the plane AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE. Try to tie them into as many ribs as possible, re inforce with ply, try to tie them into the LE as well. A P-51 has a retractable tailwheel as well so if you don't fit that your flight score may suffer.

3/ Monokote? Judged from 15 feet away probably o.k. It won't last as long as a painted finish though, try to fuel proof the model as good as you can. Consider glass & paint. - John.

I agree with everyone here so far. I just want to ad a few things that wasn't mentioned. Getting in to scale competition is a whole different ball game. We had to learn or try to learn all the techniques, and try to stand out more than the competitors.

A Arf that is going to be beefed up and altered would be in the "Beginner Class" or some say "Sport Scale." The scratch and altered kit builders usually compete in the "Expert Scale." I have seen kits in the "Sport Scale" before and win, and I've seen a plain ARF win.

At one show I seen a ARF win over a well done and documented kit. I didn't agree with the judges and didn't think it was right, but who am I- right? I've competed semi-pro in the "Fine Scale Modelers Competition in 1994-1998 and won 3 trophies and 2 plaques ranging from best of show to 3rd place. I'm not talking about local shows either. At one time I was good with the airbrush and filling seams, I hope to get that skill back one day.

One thing I've learned and it seems some people just don't get it, ( including me) is the winners and loosers is all decided by the judges, and it doesnt matter how nice your plane is. Not every judge is well educated in the plane that your showing. What wins is detail, detail and detail.

You catch the eyes of the judges, your chances of winning are great.

I do disagree that the type of motor you use determines if you have a better chance of winning or not. I've seen planes with 2-strokes win before. ( Have you ever listened to the real sound of the LaRhone or Ober? They sound like a glorified pissed off 2-stroke.)

Another thing I almost forgot to mention, the judges will want you to fly your plane to scale. That means long roll take offs, realistic landings and flight etc. Hmmm, if I nose over my Fokker DR1, I just might win... right?


Pete

Hello again,

In competition the sound that your engine makes is not judged. It might make an impression in your overall realism score during your flight routine but there is no line on the judges form for engine sound.

There are always discussions on why one plane scores better over another. The key to the judge's insight as to why that might have happened is to study the rules before you compete. There is a section for the judges and a section for the competitor. Read them both. Static judging is an exercise in "does it match". Your aircraft is judged against your documentation. So if something is shown in your documentation and it is not on your model then it is a down grade and that is true the other way around. Also, try not to fall into this plane looks nicer than that plane trap. That very well may be true but remember Craftsmandhip is only 30 percent of your over all static score for the Sportsman and Expert classes at the Scale Masters it is 35%.

As I mentioned before do your homework first and then build your model to match your documentation as best you can. Oh, yes that have fun thing still holds true.

Ripley

That's right, make sure you have fun... win or loose.

Well said Ripley.

Pete

And, on top of all of that, the judges are people (believe it or not), and they all have their "favorite" type of aircraft, and will lean toward those.

Les

I'm a little over half way to my 30 progression points in the Sportsman classcompeted off and on since the late 70's (mostly off). In addition to all the good advice above I would suggest you also fly Fun Scale at a contest with whatever model you have that will get the 5 points. That will double your flight learning experience at only a marginal extra cost. Seems like here in the midwest Fun Scale has way more entries than the Sport Scale classes.

Chuck

This is the plane Iplan to model by modifying my Topflight kit:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/captain...ous/282832579/

I have taken all the photos I should need for documentation during my visits to the Udvar Hazy museum.

I am not deadset on winning but ammore interested in just competing, seeing what other modelers are working on, and developing my building skills. I was an active competitor in free flight in the past and really enjoyed the competition even when I did not win.

Great posts, much appreciated.
Anthony


</p>

I have been around a long time, and have seen and built many planes; for my self, and two of my son's, but I have never seen that rendition. Great choice.

Les

It is a pretty and special airplane. It was specially modified with full wet wings so it did not have to carry drop tanks for the Bendix races it won twice and came it third once. It only came in third that time because Paul Mantz had two of these C models prepared identical and changed the racing numbers and flew the other to the win. Charles Blair bought it after they canceled the Bendix because he had devised the navigation by the Sun over the North Pole and needed a plane to be able to fly nonstop to test it,and it was available. It is standard navigation now but he invented it in 1951. Blair was a China Clipper pilot and married to Maureen O' Hara.

Gene Barton campaigned a gorgeous 80" span model of "Excalibur III" in the 1989 Scale Masters Championships but I can't find a pic of it online anywhere. It was designed by Rick Lewis and later offered as a kit by Aeroloft Designs, might still be available actually. I love the high back Mustang variants and look forward to watching your build drav8r.

She's a very pretty airplane, and witgh that paint scheme, she would have been easy to spot if she had gone down on to the ice.

Did you get the P-51B Razorback kit for it or are you going to do that scratch?

Bob

I bought the "limited edition" B model kit that was re-released by Topflight about 12 years ago. I am glad I kept it.
The history of this airplane is really fascinating and I thought the overall appearance would be easier for me to do and more unique than a military version.
Maybe I need a picture of Maureen O'Hara in the documentation!
Anthony