kaksnapper

Well, I thought WB wheels were the cats meow until I've been reading your posts. Trying to get those fu+*%$#@+_ckin wheels. I won't go into the past cause all I've gotten was...
"next month", ""NEXT MONTH"" for the last 5 months and that is Bull Sneakers until I read this. I guess I haven't been seachin enough cause I just found this post and you all got the cats meow.

I've thought in the past about building my own but us ole dudes get complacent, go with the flow. I've done allot of work on my scales (birds) and want them Real. Got a couple builds under Warbirds...below a funaero 1/6 S.E.5a with WB wheels, that will change NOW and my first gasser under 1/4 SopWith Pup which I've been waitin for wheels forever.

Hey, a whole lot of thanx, ken

abufletcher

I'm now working on a third prototype set that I hope will be even better and maybe even lighter. Already my 5 1/4" spoke wheels (with a hard rubber tire made of fuel tubing) weighs 5 grams less than the WB's 5" wheels. With the much lighter (but less resistent) foam tire I'd guess each of my spoked wheels are a good 15 grams lighter. So the point is this: Don't think that spoked wheels have to add weight to a model.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, the WB wheels are non-scale in a number of ways including:

1. Tire seems a little too thick relative to the rim diameter.
2. The is no molded detail at all on the "inside side" of the wheels, except for the words Williams Bros.
3. Not all WWI had stitched wheel covers as done on the WB wheels.
4. Most wheels had inspection holes. These are difficult to do because of the thinkness of the plastic on the WB wheel hubs.
5. There are only 16 molded in spoke impressions (German aircraft typically had 20 to a side and British 32 and typically you only see a sort of crown around the hub.
6. In most cases the spokes did not radiate straight out from the hub but rather formed a tangent.

I don't want to be knocking a good product and a valuable addition to WWI RC modeling. And I certainly hope that someone picks up the production of these. I just want to point out that there is definitely room for improvement.

BobH

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abu, great looking stuff !!!. You are going to become the "Wheel Man"!
Hey while I was at Toledo I saw a demo on a type of CA that is a little different than what we are used to. One of its properties is that when you join an O ring, for example, the joint is as ply-able as the rest of the O ring. The material at the joint fuses together so you can't really see a difference. I suspect that this Glue was made for that type of application for the most part even though it will work on any material. Another significant difference is that you MUST use the "accelerator". If you don't then it won't Go Off. After I get home from work I can post the name of the product..

abufletcher

Bob, very interesting! I tried to find something like this here in Japan but with no luck. On the foam wheels it's very annoying to have a hard ridged CA seam. The stuff you're talking about sounds perfect.

The main reason I'm making another set of wheels is that with the new more scale tire width the total wheel diameter goes up to 5 1/4" which is just a little bit larger than I'd need on the Pfalz project. So for a 5" wheel I needed to make a just slightly smaller rim. I might end up putting the other pair up on eBay.

And now that I brought a (Ryobi) scroll saw back with me from the states (half the price of what it would cost in Japan) I'm set to start all kinds of projects! I used it yesterday to cut out the new "plug" for the spoked wheel rims. Over the weekend I'll probably experiment with cutting some rib templates either out of ply or aluminum.

I'm VERY VERY tempted to try to put together a quickie Nieuport 11. It would be dead easy to frame up and wouldn't require anything exotic (and unavailable in Japan). I'd just do it semi-scale with the view to having it done by July.

BobH

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Abu. I'll try to get a web address for you so maybe you can order it over there..
You going to build the Balsa USA kit? they are pretty fast builds from what I hear and fly well.

abufletcher

Bob, if I do build the Nieuport 11 it'll be scratch built from the Joseph Nieto drawings, which I've had for years and years. I also happen to have the perfect aluminum pan for the cowl! I'd build it fast with only semi-scale structure. Also I'd be building it small, maybe a 40 engine size at about 55". BTW, I showed the plans for the 1/6 scale Pfalz to club member here in Japan and everyone thought it was HUGE. Things are on a whole different scale here.

I'd still sticking with the Pfalz as a serious scale project so this would just be a bit of fun that I can build with locally available sticks and balsa.

BobH

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Huge huh? hmm maybe that explains the Japaneese women's attraction to western men? JUST KIDDING!!
Sounds like a plan.. nice and compact and easy to build, transport, finish, etc.... gosh.. nothing wrong with that!

abufletcher

OK, got around to weighing all three wheel variants:

1) WB, 5" = 107 grams

2) Mine with heavy fuel hose tire, 5 1/4" = 105 grams

3) Mine with light rubberized foam tire, 5" = 60 grams!!!

The fuel hose tire version looks more authentic and is still lighter than the WB wheel but the fuel hose is a little hard. I'd like to find something with a bit more give. The light rubberized foam tire (which is actually a foam tube into which I've inserted a 3/16" solid rubber cord) has about the right resistence to it (for a lighter model) but would probably wear out quickly.

Reg Hinnant

My Feedback: (9)

Hi Guy's,
The CA Bob is talking about is used by the RC car people for glueing the tyres together. Rubberized CA in black color (BSI IC-2000). Neet stuff with a lot of applications.
http://www.bsiadhesives.com/Pages/hobby/ca.html
Check out the "Insta-flex" product also. Same stuff only clear.
I have used this product and it works very well on the neoprene rubber tubing for tyres. I usually have a short inner foam core to line the tube ends up so the joint is even all around the diameter.
Cheers

The PIPE

PLEASE don't forget those HARRY SHOAF articles I sent you...

Dear Abufletcher:

The PIPE here again...and PLEASE do not forget those HARRY SHOAF articles on "Making Your Own Wheels and Tires" that I sent you the scans of...not very long ago...

...on making some TIRES for your upcoming projects!

You DID say you had some PLASTER around (for the article's main material, for making the molds, to make the tires inside of)...I'm just hoping you DO end up using those articles, as they should make up JUST the sort of tires you're looking for, to fit those handsome wire wheel rims you've already produced...

...and I'd bet the sort of silicone rubber caulking material called for IN that article to mold the tires with, from the AMA magazine, from way back in February and March of 1980 (those articles ARE viewable at the AMA Digital Archive as well) should stand up quite well for dirt or grass surface landings.

So....when the time comes to "get" some TIRES for those gorgeous rims, please remember I DID send along the Harry Shoaf articles to assist you in making those tires...as THAT article should be a big help to you at the appropriate time!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

abufletcher

Pipe, I haven't forgotten the articles you sent (THANKS AGAIN!!!) and I WILL get around to experimenting with that method soon. I love the idea of being able to make grey tires as well as black ones! Doing the hollow rubber tires looks a bit more challenging through.



I'll also have to see if I can find that same kind of silicone rubber chauking here in Japan!

The PIPE

You COULD even try giving those self-made tires a FABRIC layer of sorts...like a fullscale CAR tire!

Dear Abufletcher:

The PIPE here again...HOLD ONTO those articles...as I'm quite sure you WILL eventually be using them!

Harry Shoaf, on the SEVENTH page of the article I sent you, mentions "obliquely" about something that MIGHT be a great idea to add some MORE strength to the finished "stuffed" tire, as I'd aptly call the 7-1/2 inch (19 cm) diameter tire he's made in that article...

"You may, however, complicate it to your heart's content with wire, fiberglass, etc"...

...and what he seems to mean in THAT fragmentary sentence, is that, just like full scale light aircraft tires (and even CAR TIRES of three decades ago) you COULD add a bit of a FABRIC layer to the "carcass" of the tire, under the outer layer of silicone rubber caulking...on the fifth page of that article, in the photo labeled "Fig.9", the thread that's being used to hold that sheet metal "mandrel" to the round foam rubber "stuffer" is meant to actually BECOME part of the silicone layer of the tire!

It doesn't take TOO much imagination to think about using some nylon PANTY HOSE for a fabric layer along the inside of the silicone rubber outer layer...to STRENGTHEN the tire still further...remember, after WW II, American car tires actually DID have just such a "bias-ply" nylon fabric layer or two built-into the "carcass" of the tire...and that layer of nylon fabric WOULD most likely prevent the tire from getting worn out more quickly from hard landings.

It's "just an idea"...but it IS one I'd consider doing up for the custom tires I'll likely need for at least SOME of my WW I CAD project aircraft...if I eve decide to do up (since my German Email buddy actually RESEMBLES a certain WW I German fighter pilot) Jens Klank's (Günther von Büren's) Jasta 18 Fokker D VII, THAT aircraft DID have GRAY tires on it..and come to think of it, Kurt Wintgens' Fokker M.5K/MG Eindecker "E.5/15" has gray tires as well...so I'll be using my copies of Harry's tire article on hard disk for making some of those "stuffed" tires in time as well...!!!

That idea of REAL FABRIC in a self-made WW I aircraft tire set for "just a bit more durability" is TOO tempting to pass up "en-TIRE-ly" ...SORRY about that pun, it IS Friday and I am exhausted...now just as long as I don't speak of "scale WORKING engine plumbing of the sort that", well, "you-know-what" after saying THAT...just HOLD ON to those tire making articles!!!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

abufletcher

Pipe, expect the results of a preliminary experiment SOON!!!

abufletcher

Here's a little teaser of a stage one experiment in molding silicon rubber tires! Motived in large part by the Harry Shoal articles that the Pipe kindly sent me but taking a slightly different approach. Rather than going to the work of carving out the molds I thought I'd experiment with using the hard tubing tires I already had to form the molds. Just pour the plaster, wait for it to set a bit and then press the tires in half-way. The next step would be to make a two-part mold by simply waiting for the first half to dry then perhaps dusting with some anti-sticking agent (talcium powder?) and then pour in the other half.

Anyway the silicon sealant available locally in gray (two shades!), black, white and ivory looks very promising! And it was a great consistency!

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Abu

You may see things at the Smooth-on site that you could use for tires, castings, and what ever else you can dream up.

steve

abufletcher

Steve, yes lots of neat stuff there! But for now I'll have to stick with whatever supplies are available a the local hardware store here in small town Japan. The sealant looks about perfect (and costs roughly $4 per tube). One advantage of using the hard tubing tire to make the mold is it actually provides a bit of texture.

Reg Hinnant

My Feedback: (9)

This evening I will scan & send you an article from a David Boddington book on making tyres that way. WW2 & WW1 style. It's from a 1980's book.

abufletcher

Reg, you can be sure it'll be much appreciated! I'm a sucker for these kinds of modeling tips -- particularly knowledge from now forgotten or out-of-print sources. I suppose that's the researcher in me. I'll keep everyone updated on the molding process. I'm slowly working my way through the other materials you sent. Thanks again for those!

Now if we can just convince the new makers of the WB Vintage Wheels to go with GREY wheels instead of Black!!! It's funny how the myth of the black tire has taken hold so firmly. A month ago I would have sworn on a stack of bibles that all wheels were black. But according to all the experts (many of them VERY knowledgeable) over on the Aerodrome Forum WWI never (almost never?) had black tires. Rather the tires were made of natural rubber (whitish, yellowish, pinkish) with perhaps a bit of carbon black for resistance to sunlight (thus grey). Add to this the usual muck and grime that would be ground into the rubber and there you have it: GRUNDGE COLORED! Some seem to think some of the later Allied planes had somewhat darker tires. Of course if you modeling a replica the replica (and most Museum example) will have newer replacement tires probably in black rubber.

When TopGun WWI entrees, the the ubiquitous DVa's start shwoing up with grey, tan, or even pinkish tires THEN the myth will have been defeated! It's very tough for a commercial company to go against common wisdom even common wisdom in wrong.

eagledancer

hey Pipe,
could i talk you into sending me a copy of that article?????
PLEEEEEEEEEEEESE

thanks
todd

abufletcher

Hmmmm...second experiment (making a two part mold by pouring more plaster on top of first mold with a bit of cooking oil smeared on the first) was a failure. Any suggestions for a household or other easily available substance I can use to keep the two plasters half from bonding?

Maybe I need to re-read the articles the Pipe and Reg sent. As they say, when all else fails RTFM.

BobH

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Try using a mechanical barrier.. Wax Paper.... to keep the molds apart.

abufletcher

I'm not sure that would work. Maybe plain old bees wax or just a heavy layer of crayon. Though it would be nice to have something I could brush or sprinkle on.

abufletcher

I've been playing around with the first "half" tire I molded and the rubber is pretty pliable. In fact, so pliable that I really need to make the mold MUCH smaller. The tire to be molded should probably be smaller in diameter than the hub to have a tight fit. With the hard fuel tubing or the foam the tire is only slightly smaller than the size required as these don't stretch as much.

ogarrid

Hi,

I am trying your method but I have some problems with spokes. I am using 10 holes pattern and 1 mm annealed wire. Trying to put the spokes in a V shape is a mess. The final result shows very Wrinkled spokes.

¿ what do you suggest?

thanks

abufletcher

First, I'm happy to hear that you're giving my method (which is a borrowing of everyone else's methods) a shot. I still haven't tried the V-shaped spoke version yet -- but I imagine it to be a bit more complex and exacting that the single spoke version. You'd have to cut the lengths of wire very exactly -- just enough so that you could bend them enough to fit through the holes in the rim but long enough to have a bit to fold over. I'll probably get around to doing the V-version in late summer. At the moment I've been spending all my time building the Nieuport 11.

Also you say you're using annealed wire. It's really important to only anneal the very ends, that is, the parts you have to bend. For my tires that was about 1/4" on either end. If you end up annealing the whole metal spoke you just end up with a normal piece of wire that will never stay straight. That was one of the discoveries I made when I first tried doing this.

The "wire" I used for spokes is 0.8mm stainless steel (from a fishing shop) and the holes are 1mm.

I hope this helps and if not just ask again -- and again -- and again. That's what I did!

Saludos,

Don