EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Nowadays, ebay is LOADED with people making bundles of money selling copies of COPYRIGHTED plans. Plans that the copyright owners are still selling.
I am not talking about the old Air Trails stuff that nobody cares about, but plans that are from RCM and MAN and stuff like that. And I'm not talking about those who re-sell an original copy that they bought. I am talking about the guys who go to Kinkos.
Your thoughts?

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

Simple matter to take a plan sheet over to copy place where they charge $5 per sheet, then take the same sheet and try to sell at $15 to $25 each here are RC U and other places. They tend to stretch in the direction run through the copier rollers. If the plan went through the copier a bit off perpendicular, a shift or Zee would happen about 1/2 to 2/3rds down the plan. John Pond plan service was famous for this copying.

Most readers think this is harmless way to make a quick buck, I don't. Has been guy at RC U here copying old Sterling plans and selling them at about $15 to $20 each. The Sterling plans do not give all the information needed to build yet another model though. You need the kit parts to figure out final configuration.


I usually watch that the word "copy" doesn't show up in the announcement. You then get a nice print that the parts fit. You need to ask before buying too.


Wm.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I am really, really AGAINST people doing this. And virtually NOBODY actually SAYS "copy". But 98% of the plans over there are copies. I asked one the other day, and he just refused to answer. This was for the old Musciano F84 that is currently in the MAN catalog.
Yep, the copies made at kinkos are low quality, for sure. And yep, many of the kit plans are incomplete and unsuitable for scratch building. But what just really bothers me is the lack of respect for those who actually OWN those designs.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

By the way, people ask me constantly to do plans copies. I could make a pretty penny doing this, and I refuse ALL requests. I do sell some plans once in a while, but only originals.
Sometimes you have to take the high ground, and this is one of those places, for me.

heavy date-RCU

I always ask as well. I don't think it is right to copy someone elses work and make money from it. I spent over a year trying to track down the owner of the Chralie Smith J2-F Duck plans as I have an original set and many people wanted a copy. I would not do it until I was able to get the rights from the owner. After all that time I found that Bill Northrop had the rights for all Charlie Smiths plans and was still selling them. Since he has the rights, I told everyone that wanted a set where to get them.
I only copy plans to get the templates as I want to keep the originals in good shape. This is legal to do.
Hans

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Way to go, Heavy Date. You will find that the vast majority of these "public domain" plans actually DO belong to somebody. And there is nothing wrong with making a copy for your own use, you are right.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Also...if it were a case of you just making a copy for a friend, and you did not know where to buy a copy, that would be one thing. But making copies to sell, well, that's a problem.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

I ordered up some plans direct from Musciano. Boy, is he talkative. However, I asked them to be initialed for verification as to their autheniticy. These things must have been sitting in his garage for years as the prints were a bit brown. He wrote notes all over them. Rather inovative way of saying I have originals.


Wm.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I was just talking to Walt last week! A great fellow. He sent me his original RK049 from the F84, plus a NIB one. I sent him an Opel Rocket plane from his plans that I built, so he could use it for an article.
I'm going to auction off the NIB fan unit and send him the money, don't tell him. He really can use the dough.
Here's a perfect example of why these guys on ebay are skeeves. Walt worked so hard on that design, and could really use the money. Who are these guys to steal from a guy like Walt? It ain't right.

VoughtF4U

My Feedback: (1)

I noticed a guy on Ebay selling a bunch of Hostetler's Gee Bee R-2. He sold a bunch of copies. I emailed Hostetler and let them know who he was and stuff and Hostetler almost seemed more annoyed at me that I was emailing him about this than he was at the guy selling his plans... Go figure... I tried.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

That happened with me and Ziroli, too. If the copyright owner does not care, then forget them. And feel free to copy all the Ziroli and Hostettler plans you want to. And sell them all you want. Here in america, if you fail to excercise due dilligence to protect your copyright, you lose it. And if you informed them, and they chose not to bother to enforce it, then they are not exercising due dilligence.
Thanks for pointing out one of the interesting aspects of this sticky issue!

jprge C.

My Feedback: (1)

Hello,
Gee I am a little surprised in very last post here Easytiger. Just because the owner of the plans does not want to get invloved in something that would be costly and difficult to stop, I really don't think you so say it is ok. I can tell you from my own experience of plans I had published for a series of model boats, some done by the Dumas line, that copies are very hard to stop and prosecute.
We as a hole hope the average modeler will want the original and buy it directly and i would say the vast majority do.

Jorge

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Not in this case, it's not. It's a simple as filling out a form with ebay to verify you are the owner of the copyright, and then you are set. If Ziroli(a nice fellow, both of them) cannot put in that minimal amount of effort to enforce their copyright, I'm not going to spend even one word of breath defending them.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

...Or just have a lawyer fire off a cease and desist letter. Or do it yourself. The majority of offenders will stop. It does not become long and drawn out unless the person refuses to stop. And this would be the minimum effort, the due dilligence that the law requires.
The law does not let you let all the small ones slide, just waiting for a transgressor with pockets deep enough to be worth suing. You have to have made a real effort to enforce your copyright. If you did not know about the violation, that's one thing, but if you were told, and did not bother to take any steps to enforce it, you are out of luck. As it should be.
Another thing is...a lot of people would not MIND. SOME of these plans are out of print, and if you just ASK, the designers would be fine with it...

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I wrote to uncle-willys on ebay and asked him if the plans were copies. He said "copies". I asked what Ziroli might think of that, and here's his response:
"My plans that I swapped for has no Copyright on it. I would think that he
makes most of his money on selling the cowl, canopy, retracts, ect., so I am
getting him business on the long run. He has never told me to stop selling
them. I suggest that may feel better buying directly from him then me. I do
not believe that you would not be happy with my items. Now I am swamped with
work and must work long and hard in an effort to survive. Willie"

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Hi Guys.

I just did what you guys are talking about. Kinda. I made copies of a large model to trade with a guy that had plans of a model I wanted. He sent the originals. By the time I copied and mailed my set to the gentleman, I could have bought a brand new set of plans from the source. Would this fall under your issue here.

All my stuff is for my own use, and I do not sell as a vendor, nor to profit. God knows there's not enough profit in it sometimes.

steve

M Gill

Intellectual property is still property.

Let's say (for instance) that you scratch built an airplane. You worked on it for a long time and flew it for several years. Now the airplane sits in your garage because you have moved onto other things. You might get back to it someday, but not yet.
Someone comes along and decides "I've always wanted that plane, but I would like not to pay too much for it, I'll just take the one sitting in that fellows garage."

Stealing copy written material is still stealing. Even if you don't mind that your airplane has been taken (maybe you know the guy who did it and he explained some hardship to you) we, as participants in a gentlemen's hobby, can NOT abide by or encourage this kind of behavior.

It is one thing to shoot a copy for your own personal uses, the copy write laws even provide for that, but when you are doing it for distribution and profit, that is stealing and it is just as wrong as someone who steals an unattended field box from off of the flight line.

Mace Gill
The Aeroplane Works

Trident

Also, when guys post blatent subjects on forums such as this like "hey I am 'DESIGNING' a such and such model and am looking for former drawings and wing templates and so forth". . .this is the same thing as ET mentions here. . . it is stealing. This person is not designing anything - hes copying and taking credit to boost his or her own ego.

Take the above post by Scalecraft for example. He admits to copying someones plans yet fails to understand (or realise) this is just like fraud or stealing. What he fails to realise is that while HE had expense (and therefore is justified in his mind) the guy who spent countless hours designing the model LOSES a sale.

Scalecraft,

This would be like as if I said "I have figured out a way (through much work) how to copy the information on your credit card and then proceed to go on a shopping spree and then justify it by saying it took me "X" amount of hours to figure out the program to make it work so therefore I have in effect PAID for it - Right? No, the fact remains - it would be stealing, and you would feel taken advantage of.

Sorry if this seems like I am picking on you but I am not, I just feel strongly that there are guys in this hobby who are trying to make a living and feed their family like the rest of us and we should respect that - thanks.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I love the way the ebay guy has it rationalized to "I'm doing Nick Ziroli a favor!"
That's such a classic.

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Trident ,

I posted my post for feed back. I am not ofended or upset. I am just seeking to learn. And general opinion.

Steve

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Scalecraft, I think you are okay, you recognize, after the fact, that you essentially cost somebody the sale of one plan. It's not the end of the world.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

By the way, I sent that to Ziroli, and now they say they are going to take action.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

Did anybody notify Don Smith or Jerry Bates? I see those guys' stuff on ebay by the same seller also.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

You fellows need to take a diversion to the PLANS section within RCU here, as I would guess that 20% of the listings are copies. Need to think about home too.


Wm.

M Gill

Chad,

Send me the link to the exact site of the guys selling Don smith and Jerry Bates stuff, I would like to see it so I can give Don and Jerry the 'heads up'.

Or you could go to their web-sites and contact them yourself.

Mace Gill
The Aeroplane Works