EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

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rdcracer

My Feedback: (2)

You guys now have me curious. I ususally copy the plans for the kits or whatever I buy. I do this so I can build on the copy, cut it up when needed ect and still have a full sheet plan to reference. I pay $25.00 plus to copy . My question is, are the plans distorted as discussed in a earlier thread? Is it not a good idea to do this?
Thanks

MikeS

My Feedback: (37)

I bought a cd set from digital automation 2000 off eBay. I was surprised to see hundreds of scanned plans from RCM, MAN, MA and many others. I looked up the tortuous way to protest to eBay officials, filed negative feedback on the seller, and called and talked to RCM and MAN. I offerd the original cds so they could prosecute.
The seller replied in his answer to my negative feedback that the scanned images were provided for my viewing only, so no infringement occured. EBay accepted this and no one took action. I know some of the designers who had plans copied, and they say that practice takes money out of their pockets. RCM and MAN sadi they would contact eBay to complain. Shortly thereafter, the seller, who had been around for years, went away. Several months later, another seller appeared hawking very similar cds using the same language in the ads as digital automation.
It is possible to get eBay to act. That needs to come from someone with clout. Unfortunately, the offenders pop back up like the vermin they are.
BTW, I also bought from uncle willy. I guess I am part of the problem, but you don't know who the offenders are until you buy, unless forums such as this expose them. They will still stay in business because you can't reach all the potential buyers and most of them do not care.
end of rant
Take care.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Great post, Mike! You feel just like I do about the matter.
Trouble is, the only people who really have authority to do anything are the copyright owners themselves. If THEY fill out the ebay paperwork, ebay will do something. If you or I do, they probably won't.
What do you guys think of startpoint? I asked him if his plans were original, he got really, REALLY defensive and obfuscated most heavily. Claims he bought all the plans. I don't beleive him one bit. What do YOU think?

Joe B.

My Feedback: (1)

It's akin to swapping software. It's one thing to give your old magazines to your flying buddies, but to run copies of all of the pages for your buddies isn't right. Of course this is a bad example since the $3 magazine is cheaper than reproduction cost but you get the idea. As a Project Surveyor I can say I would not like my surveys, construction basemaps or other plan sets being given away as my paycheck is directly tied to the client buying the plans from ME (or my company in this case). It's not always easy to see but those guys make a living off of this and if someone makes copies they are breaking the law and stealing.

On the other side, if the works are NOT copyrighted (should be somewhere on the plans) then it's public domain and that may very well be what some authors have. Who knows what these guys think but if it is copyrighted then it's wrong.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

You do not have to actually say "copyright" on the work to be protected...

Dick T.

My Feedback: (243)

Easytiger, you are correct. However you must be able to prove the origin date you produced the drawings, photos, etc. Ones "word" is not sufficient.

Dating and signing your works will provide a legal edge if copying is done. The Library of Congress instructs the author should state on their original works "Copyright (copyright circle C emblem) Date by (Author's name). This provides about 50% legal protection. The remaining 50%, which seals the copyright protection requires the author to either (1) register the documents, with copies, to the Library of Congress, or (2) seal copies in an envelope and mail to one self. The mailed copy must remain sealed to be legitimate. The postmark establishes the copyright date.

I doubt many of the model designers (or other folks) ever take the second step, therefore have little recourse unless they want to spend considerable time "proving" they are the true copyright holder.

Having the first step appear on your drawings, etc., will usually keep Copy Centers from reproducing a visibly annotated document.

Not completing step two only leaves you with whining rights or an expensive legal pursuit if someone purloins your works.

TexasAirMedic

My Feedback: (2)

well I'm a photographer, and I have this problem all the time .. I've had to go to the point of halfway mangling proofs to avoid them being copied .. and I haved signs up all over my studio that state copying in any way, even for personal use is illegal and the same as shoplifting .. it's a federal law and can be enforced ( I actually had to take a client to court and they lost) .. but I can relate about the comment of intellectual property .. if people pay me for the time to create an image, then taking my talent and running to kinko's is unfair and inappropriate (and illegal) .. it angers me that people are doing that (selling copies on Ebay) .. I think it's wrong and I agree with all of you ... okay, I'm done venting

omcusnr

I am a plans junkie, and have been all over the web looking for free plans.

I will not use any that have been posted as scans from RCM, etc. If I want that aircraft, I'll get a better deal by purchasing from the designer or plan holder.

I am guilty of scanning someones 3-views so I can trace them for conversion to buildable plans.

Most plans are under $30 & its well sorth it to get good copies.

Daren Savage

My Feedback: (6)

What's the point of this thread other than to rant? If you're not the holder of the copyright, what do you care? Yeah, so it bothers you... okay. Now what are you going to DO?

No one sues because there's very little payoff for what involves a great deal of time, trouble and expense. Additionally, if the offender is off-shore, now what?

These types of rants show up every once in a while and are not unlike the vaporings from women.

Daren

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

Daren,
Are you naturally that way, or did you take lessons.

rrandletn

My Feedback: (5)

How do you feel about this. A company no longer kits the plane. The kit only had and a instruction sheet which was not at all the size of the plane. You take the kit parts and trace them on your own paper, make copies of the instruction sheet and your sheet and then sell these items. If the company is no longer kitting the plane and after checking with them they seem to have no plans on kitting it in the future. Is this wrong that you do this?

heavy date-RCU

Trident,
Estes just went through this same thing you mention. A man was cloning and selling out of production Estes rocket kits. These kits had not been made by Estes since the late 60's early 70's.

Estes issued a formal complaint that this gent had better stop or be sued. He stopped making the kits.

Hans

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

HANS:

There was a fellow from (I believe) Amarillo Texas doing low cost laser cutting for anyone who had a few dollars. He began assembling kits from the plans issued by Model Airplane News and selling them via Internet and eBay.

He was issued a notice to cease by the Carsten's attorney's (I saw the letter) and then became mad at the world of Model A/C.

That changed about beginning of this year and now instead of selling off his equipment, I think he has been taking on parts runs for small time kit makers. A much safer route.

A infamous kit cutter here in Sou. Calif. began, and got a copy of the same letter from Carsten's. They will only cut with signed plans in hand. NO Copies.

Wm.

Daren Savage

My Feedback: (6)

It comes naturally, but it did take a lot of practice to hone it to a fine edge.

Daren

omcusnr

If this is the only way that you personally can build this model I wouldn't have a moral problem w/ it even if its not strictly legal. But to sell this to others is not right, morally or legally.

It doesn't hurt to look around though, and try to find 3-views or another plan source. If you go w/ 3-views than you can develope your own set of plans and have the added sastifaction of designing your own. Then if you ar magnamous, you can provide them on line for others to see how clever you've been.

rrandletn

My Feedback: (5)

Well if there are people out there who are looking for a discontinued kit and the company has no plans on marketing it, that's the companies own short sightedness.

Otto Kudrna

My Feedback: (1)

Hello
I have a set of Vito Tomeo plans for the Hawker Seafurry, Unfortunately Mr. Tomeo is no longer with us and neither is any of his drawings. What Now

Otto Kudrna

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

It all comes down dollars (unfortunately). Is it worth persuing the issue? Will the entity that is suffering the loss front the money to persue. And how big is the loss.

Years ago we developed all composite models. Now they have been copied. Oh well.

I don't let of the really nice ones out anymore.

My recourse is to copy other models?? This is a practice in the business.

Steve

foxx

My Feedback: (2)

It is not a question of being right or wrong it is illegal to sell copies of copy righted matterial without permission . Report these people to Ebay. If the designers getting riped off like this they might stop designing

F4u5

My Feedback: (81)

Well...this brings up an interesting point. I agree that copies of plans should not be made to be sold. As for copying them for your own use, go for it and never fear. I blow up almost all the plans I buy to a larger scale. This includes Ziroli, Vaillancort, et. al. Now, I have spoke with Ziroli about this, he has no quams about it. However, Mr Vaillancort not only threatened me, but took the stand of warning to others that if they do the same, that he would have the right to sue both them and me. Now, this is a totally different attitude from two different plans designers...needless to say which plan maker I now dedicate myself to. I took the liberty of explaining to Mr. Vaillancort the fair use copyright laws. Now, they state, in short, that once I buy the copyrighted material (in this case plans), I am free to do with them as I wish, as long as my practice does not involve the sale or profitting of this material, etc.. That the synopsis....so no case. I enlarge my plans to the size I need to build. I usually sell the originals I bought at a reduced cost, and build from my copied plans. I never sell the copies, altho I have been asked to do so. However, there is nothing wrong with copying for personal use. I figure Vaillancort was P/O'd because he couldn't sell me a bunch of parts...which is where the real money is made. Left a sour taste in my mouth for sure. Additionally, there is a lot of wivestails about copying of plans and their distorting. This can happen, but is not a case of fact, where it "happens every time I try it". In fact, I copy at Kinko's and have had only 1 bad sheet in the last 4 years (6 airplanes later). That's about 42 sheets of plans I end up with. I have been doing this for 15 years with no ill effects. So, in closing, no I don;t think copies shoule be sold. But, I can sure copy them all I want for my own use. I appreciate Ziroli's attitude on this whole enlarging plans thing. He is great to deal with. That's my biased opinion.

foxx

My Feedback: (2)

F4u5 I really have problem with the part that you said you sell the original and keep the copies for yourself. Think about it this way if the guy who bought your plans copied them and sold the original then the next guy did the same what we have here is a secondary market at great cost to the original designer. I know it is done all the time but nobody admits it.

Joe B.

My Feedback: (1)

I would guess it depends if you destroy your copy once you sell the originals. Kind of like buying a CD. You can make all the copies you want, but if you sell the original you can't keep the copies (legally). Also, as far as 'streatch'. We have use both large format copiers and blue line (ammonia based) machines at work and the copiers do streatch but depending on the quality depends on how much it stretches. It is generally miniscule but sometimes a 200' line at 1"=20' will show a 1' difference which is measureable. In case your keeping track, that works out to .05" on the plan which in my case would be far smaller than my best cuts are capable of

F4u5

My Feedback: (81)

You need to read a little closer foxx....I enlarge the plans for me. I don't build the original size. I have no need for the smaller set. BAsically, you are saying that anyone who buys a set of plans and does not build them has no right to resell them as if affects the designer? That's like saying I HAVE to buy a used car at the dealership to support the GNP. Not sure how you find a problem with this, but that's your deal.

Joe B....you are in error when you state it is illegal to keep the copies if you sell the originals. The copyright law speaks to copying for purposes of profiting (basic interpretation). I paid for the originals....I own them....I can resell in the "used" market just as if I had built with them and then sold second hand. There is difference in interpretation.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

No doubt in my mind whatsover that you are stealing, F4U. Sorry, it's just how I feel.
You are not paying for using the design. You buy the plan, make a copy, and sell the original. You get use of the design for free.
I tend to think that any court in america would see it the same way.
You have it rationalized in your mind somehow that it is okay, but if someone did it to you, you'd feel differently.

As far as the accuracy of the copies, it totally depends who is doing it an on what machine, I have seen MAJOR distortion, but the Kinko's I have been using lately does just about perfect work. Like you, I make copies so I don't have to cut up the originals.