jsmeed

Unfortunately, R/C airplanes are not the only hobby to fall victim to this move from building to buying. If you walk down the other aisles of your LHS and look at the other products on offer, you'll see a lot of Ready to Run trains where "craft train kits" used to be. The die cast industry nows offers replicas of new cars long before a plastic model kit becomes available. Ready to Fly helicopters and Ready to Run boats are now also very popular.

I've noticed over the last ten years, for example, Great Planes seemed to bend over backward to provide easier to build kits to the market and even, IMO, pretty clever tools to make building very easy, but still they seem to have given in to the ARF craze, because kits are not in demand.

I think what I'm saying at the end of all this is that the "instant gratification" crowd just doesn't generate sufficient demand to make kit design/development/testing/manufacture profitable in any hobby.

abufletcher

I think there's definitely been a trend towards making kits "easier" to build -- and in general I think that's seen as a good thing. For example CAD designed and computer cut kits allow "plug in" precision fit parts. Gone are the days where you'd just get a big old block of balsa and be asked to carve it to shape. Luckily making kits "easier" to build hasn't meant reducing the quality (or the building experience). In many cases, make a better building kit has resulted in better models.

And jsmeed makes a good point about an increasing number of specialized tool, for example, for slotting hinges. Couldn't we just as well argue that these specialized tool take the joy out of "real" building? I mean, can't we just as well use our exacto knives to make those slots? Sure. But I doubt anyone is going to complain about those specialized tools as reflecting an "instant gratification" society. BTW, I made my first RC model largely without the benefit of a dremel tool. Today I can't even imagine scale modeling without one.

On the issue of available kits, my perspective might be distorted due to my interest in WWI aircraft. It seems to me that there have never been very many WWI kits. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are more quality WWI kits today than there were when I first got interested in RC about 20 years ago (though I didn't actually start flying or building until about four years ago).

Mode One

Abu, I agree, there are more WW1 kits available right now. I guess the WW1 crowd are builders. Maybe the reason is at no other time in history does model airplane construction come closer to the airplane construction procedures used to build the real aeroplanes used in this war.

abufletcher

Yeah, thankfully the ARF manufacturers don't seem to think we WWI fans are a worthwhile market.

abufletcher

Just when you thought it was safe to come out of the workshop, there's the ARF manufacturers bearing down on us! Run! Run for your life!!!

abufletcher

The simple solution of course is just to stop flying "me too" models that are such easy pickings for the ARF makers. I dare anyone to market at Gotha IV ARF.

allanflowers

I also deeply regret the passing of a kit company like Jack Stafford models. The world of scale is losing something important here.
----------------------------
On the other hand, there has never been a better time to start a NEW model company. With the internet, scale research is so much easier. Communications via internet and e-mail make contact with previously inaccessable experts possible. There is an explosion of possiblities with powerplants and control systems. Easily available computer technology and software opens up fantastic new possibilities. Marketing in new, unconventional ways adds new horizons to reaching customers. We can introduce models at the early or even prototype stage and benefit from Wikipedia-like involvement from wildly divergent sources. Abu's Snipe build - in JAPAN - of a design created and produced in GERMANY is an example. AerodromeRC's release of prototype releases is another example of this at an even earlier design stage. We can create build-manuals with desktop publishing that are better than established manufacturers had in years past. We can even "publish" the manuals, and anything else - like graphics files - in various formats (PDF, etc.) on the internet or e-mailed out. One can e-mail computer files to a lasercutter hundreds of miles away and, in a few days, the parts sheets come by means of the expanded shipping capabilities created by this new age. Creation of a new company doesn't necessarily mean a big capital investment like before since we can leverage outside resources within the confines of a "virtual" company.
The new possiblities are amazing and are greatly responsible for the explosion of the new ARF companies. Independent scale nuts are already making waves in this new world. It is not the same as before but there is a new WAY, and it is a great thing.

abufletcher

I agree that anyone entering the kit manufacturing market today will need to be completely computer and internet savvy. CAD designs that are easy to update and easy to modify to other scales. CNC cutting (laser or milled) also ensures that kits can be updated and that parts fit well. Online sales and manuals. International business concept.

Kits today have to be more than just boxes of wood and a couple sheets of handdrawn plans.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

You nailed it. Oh, the kits that could have been.

I also blame Tower Hobbies and their predatory manuevers over the last 25 years . Tower killed many of the kits companies.

abufletcher

PilotFighter, I'm not sure we're agreeing here. I see all the computer savvy-ness as a good thing. I'm saying that kits today are BETTER than kits in the past.

For example, there's no doubt the Proctors more recent kits are better (more scale) than the earlier kits and GTM's Hanriot kits looks better than his old DrI kit (though that is also a wonderful kit).

rcmiket

I just have to ask. Whats Tower done to kill kit companies? Give me a break they sell what people buy. Its called staying in business. If half the guys who are crying now that "I wish I would have bought that kit but its too late now" would have followed through kit companies would be alive and well. Want someone to blame we need to look in a mirror.

TFF

ARF people for the most part want a pass time or diversion. They want to spend a Sunday afternoon flying around. They have other things plannned for the other days of the week , and just want to kill some time. Builders are more in it for the hobby of aircraft; they are intrested in touching all the parts; currious about how and why, want to experiment or dream. The hobby has changed from airplane people to flying people. Neither one is bad or good but is the way it is.

Tower will not list somthing unless they can sell 5000 copys a year and when they monopolize the industry they get to say what you want to buy( soon all P-51s will start to look like Ugly Sticks and no one will question). Your hobby shop has to buy from Tower, so they cant beat the middleman because they are the boss. Also except for the Goldbergs, and the Top Flites, kit making was a part time busness. If they got out 100-200 kits a year in their nitch they were doing good; now if you cant make a living out of it why bother they say. Small kit busness have always been a labor of love never a way to get rich.

Tom

rcmiket

"Your hobby shop has to buy from Tower, so they cant beat the middleman because they are the boss."
My LHS deals with Horizon. There not to found of Tower (Horizon gives them better pricing)

"ARF people for the most part want a pass time or diversion. They want to spend a Sunday afternoon flying around. They have other things planned for the other days of the week , and just want to kill some time. "
Your kidding right?

In today's world some just don't have the time to build. Kids, Jobs a Wife, I won't even bring up keeping up with the house. ARF's give some the opportunity to get into RC who without the ARF would never try it. Some not all go on to build a kit or from a plan. At least they are flying joining clubs and the AMA. Saying ARF people aren't into aircraft is insane. The reason they went to look at the ARF in the first place is because deep down inside they have a interest in aviation.I love to build kits and from plans but own several ARF's that I enjoy as much. Wonder if the full scale guy who buys a ready to fly from a manufacturer is looked down upon by the kit built guys? Point is if you see a kit BUY IT might not be around tomorrow

abufletcher

I think this is very true. I bought my first book on WWI aircraft at a school book fair when I was in the 6th grade (and I still have it and consult it). I've had a lifelong fascination with aircraft. Even if there were no RC and no scale modeling of any sort, I'd still be fascinated with aircraft. But I think this is a generational thing. I grew up in an age where toys for boys mimicked REAL things. I had the GI JOE Mercury capsule. I had a plastic version of the USS Enterprise that launched scale plastic aircraft. I had Tonka trucks that actually looked like real working trucks. My kids however are a whole different story. I don't think they had a single realistic toy ever. It was all Spawn and Ninja Turtles. Reality was boring. Man-made machines were boring. Space flight was boring.

Sometimes I'm amazed how we can be so fascinated by 50 year old aircraft. We're like The Cult of the Corsair or The Cult of the Fokker.

I see the pure Sunday flyers as very similar to the RC car people. Honestly, I'd rather watch TV than dink around with an RC car.


This has already happened to eindeckers. Somewhere along the way the BUSA version of the eindecker entirely eclipsed images of the real deal in modelers minds. They don't see that it's really just a gussied up Ugly Stik. In fact, I'm convinced that most modelers couldn't tell the model-myth eindecker from an accurate scale model.

Roby

It's too bad JS has closed his doors again.

It saddens me to see any kit manufacturer
close up shop.

From my point of view there is only 1 reason
that any company closes down.

1. Either they can not or will not satisify the
the needs of the customer.

Some good examples are Fox,K&B,Enya,and a host
of others.


Roby

Mode One

And the needs of the customer is ARFs, I guess. Question is, which one? Like I've said, I see myself drawing up plans and scratch building more and more in the future. Oh, by the way, I still like using a pencil and paper to draft up a set of plans to do this. Am I a dinosaur, or what. Will you go figure? What the __, this guy is saying actually drawing things on paper is fun too!

Now I am showing my age! However, I also use my confuser to spend time here.

I hate when people talk like this modern age means people must work harder now, then they did before! I know how hard my parents worked and I know how hard I worked and do work, there is no difference! You make time for the things that are a priority to you. nothing more, nothing less!

abufletcher

I think it's unfair to jump so quickly on the anti-ARF bandwagon. It's not at all clear that small specialized kit manufacturers like JS are competing in the same market as ARFs. I haven't seen JS full product line but I believe they were best known for a couple specialty kits including the Ercoupe, Mooney, and maybe a B-25 (24?). I think they also had couple of fun-fly kits but were these ever their bread and butter? Anyway, a KIT manufacturer is competing primarily with other KIT manufacturers. It's not like customers are buying an ARF instead of buying a Mooney or Ercoupe. And if JS was not selling enough B-25 kits, it would probably be more accurate to blame Ziroli.

As someone who misspent his youth drawing sideviews of WWI airplanes and considered going into drafting as a career, I know exactly what you mean. There's something very satisfy about leaving an old-fashioned trail of graphite on a good piece of velom. I even have an old honest to god blueprint of one of my early drawings (of a D.H.4). For a personal one-off model design I'm not sure CAD offers that many advantages. But in terms of developing and marketing a kit there's no question of its superiority.

I agree completely. People in the US may be "busier" today than people were in the past, but that doesn't mean they work harder. They have just made their lives more complex. One of the things that has appealed to me about my life overseas for the past 25 years is that this life has been necessarily simpler.

wingman371

I would like to thank John And Steve at Jack Stafford Models For their generosity and continued service to the RC community over the years. I am sure they will be sorely missed.

Mode One

Abu, I have ARFs. They've allowed me to have airplanes to fly while I build other planes from scratch or kit. However, they appear to be to the detriment of kits and their manufacturers. Because I like to build so much, if I thought that my not buying them would bring back a strong kit market, I could easily do so and would.

abufletcher

Agreed. I also have a number of ARFs. My buying a couple quicky funfly-ish ARFs didn't harm any kit makers.

TFF

It would be nice if the companys gave the option of kit or ARF. There would be more planes I would try. I love how my Venus flys, but I would rather have built it so it would have been mine. I have a friend who is an ARF guy; no kits. He gave me a Goldberg Ultimate kit because he did not build and he had just bought a Tower Voyger ARF. We started building at the same time, six days later mine was flying and he was still fretting about alignment of stuff. it was three weeks before his was in the air. I did it because he kept crying about how it takes too long to build. I know it was a marathon of sorts but I only put in about 50% more time than he did;i had my family and other things to do too. I would say I could have done the same in about 5 Sunday afternoons. If I had changed a bunch of stuff it would have taken longer for sure, but as designed it was not bad. At that complexity level kits and ARFs are designed about the same.

teamscalepilot

My Feedback: (2)

Well the good news is that they still have kits in stock. THIS WILL BE YOUR LAST CHANCE TO GET ONE ( LIKE THE OLD CLEVELAND KITS)

scale dail

My Feedback: (8)

We will miss Stafford. just like Royal and Jemco.

drone pilot

Sorry I've been gone for some computer malfunctions, so I'm a bit behind. It is sad to see a "name" go by the wayside, but this is the second try for that "name" It went by the wayside because it lost popularity. It didn't die because of the ARF's or any other reason other that ...nobody bought the product. All of you "bleeding hearts"... How many Stafford kits do you own? I f a company doesn't sell product it goes under... pretty simple.... Sorry to see it happen, but that is the business world... tough huh?

Mode One

Drone Pilot, Thanks for the education in economics 101. Now prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ARF market had no effect in this kit manufacturers demise or the rest of the kit manufacturers which have gone under in the recent past! This FACT is very obvious and simple to me!

Also, I never knew that "Bleeding Hearts" which is usually linked with "Liberals", can also now be linked to people whom are "Kitbuilders"!

Good to know that there is at least one TOUGH Cooky out there that understands how this world works and can explain to us DOLTS out here, where the Bear ___ in the buckwheat!

Awh, if life were truly so simple!