rcmiket

"Now prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ARF market had no effect in this kit manufacturers demise or the rest of the kit manufacturers which have gone under in the recent past! This FACT is very obvious and simple to me! "

Can you proof ARF's are the cause or is your statement just your take.

Mode One

I have to proove nothing. I have made no statements about the cause of Staffords demise. All I have said is OldScaleGuy, the originator of this thread, is claiming this to be so (read the first post). I have no reason not to beleive him, as he is in the business and certainly would be more knowledgable about his company's problems than you, Drone pilot or myself.

rcmiket

" This FACT is very obvious and simple to me! "
In refrence to ARF's killing the kit market you might have a thought on the subject . Guess not.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

That reminds me of a story from about 4 years ago. Mike & Ann Marie Cross came to our field, did some demo flying, and addressed our local ASME chapter at a dinner meeting. Some of us mentioned that very thing.

Mike said that his employers had noticed that introduction of an ARF of an existing kit, in essence, kills the kit sales. This was before introduction of the Profile-38 kit (for a time reference), and I don't think I've seen them introduce an ARF of an existing kit recently.

All this discussion (heated and otherwise) is entertaining. I think Stafford did NOT "go belly up" as some have written. I believe the selling (not the manufacture) of kits lost its allure, for the gentlemen involved.

Think about that. If you want existing manufacturers to keep on providing kits, someone must buy. If you want a newcomer to build kits, offer to show them the ropes. If said newcomer arrives with an ARF and you jump down his throat (or make derogatory posts on RCU), do you think that helps? (Not you, TFF!!! Didn't see any of that in your post!)

One would think we could support our kit providers without inflammatory rhetoric.

One might also think that those who buy ARFs are helping our LHS stay solvent, too.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

Campy

My Feedback: (1)

While ARFs may have had an impact on Stafford kit sales, the quality of the kit and materials in it will also strongly influence the sales of those kits.

I have noticed that there are several kit manufacturers that make QUALITY kits that appear not to be having problems.

Mode One

My opinion on what is happening is based on the follwoing: Kits have drastically decreased in popularity over the last 10-15 years. I have no idea how long you have been in the hobby. I have been in it for over almost 40 years. I remember that the contents of the Tower Catalog, Hobby Lobby Catalog, Sig Catalog, RC Modeller, MAN, Flying Models and Model Aviation in the 1980s had an abundance of kit offerings. Then, the amount of kits available probably exceeded what is offered in kits, ARFs and RTFs combined, today! Given these facts, I feel it is only logical that the market is demanding ARFs and has lost interest in kits and building.

So, rcmiket and Drone Pilot, I’ve stated what my opinion is, based on the facts as I see them. Here is your oportunity to explain what is REALLY going on!

Can you do it without calling names?

rcmiket

Check my posts I have stated my opinion why. Whats with this name calling stuff or is just a troll in action?

Mode One

That's typical, I'm required to expound upon my position; however, you don't have to explain yours!

I like kits. I have a concern that kits will no longer be available in the future due to what I am seeing happening through the market changing. Building is maybe more then 50% of my interest in this hobby. This means, I am a "Bleeding Heart", because the portion of the hobby which gives me the most pleasure, IS DISAPPEARING!

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I think this is a great discussion going on here about the status of kits in general and Jack Stafford in particular. But we need to keep things civil in here, otherwise I'll close down the thread.

Ken

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

One thing that I have noticed, as a builder of Stafford kits : People seemed quite intimidated by them. They were a nitch market in a nitch market in a nitch market, (if you know what I mean).

wingman371

I have the comanche waiting for me at home. Once again I would like to thank Steve and John for their dedication and support.

saramos

Some ways that ARFs have had an undeniable detrimental effect on the kit market is as follows.

At one time, if you wanted to fly RC, FF or UC, your only choices were to build a kit (or scratch), or to buy a kit (or scratch) that someone else built. There were a lot of people who enjoyed flying so much, they would do this, even though they didn't want to. Now, these people no longer need to build, they simply buy an ARF.

Also, for the new person wanting to get into RC, ARFs are very attractive because they can be flying in much shorter order because they don't have to learn to build before they fly. For most all of the newcomers, the goal is flying. This has greatly reduced the demand for kits.

Now add in that most ARFs can be airborne for about the same cost, and often for less money than building (and that's without considering the cost of tools) and as others have said, it is obvious that ARFs have had a huge impact on kit manufacturers.

Will all the major kit manufacturers eventually disappear? Perhaps. But I suspect that plans, kit cutters, and some parts supplier (canopies and cowls) will take up the void.

Scott

abufletcher

First we need to acknowledge that the vast majority of kits out there and either completely non-scale (fun fly, trainers, etc.) or are little better than the stand-way-off-scale ARFs so many people decry. Personally, I wouldn't waste a minute of building time gluing together a non-scale kit. I mean, why would anyone want to BUILD an ugly stik? For these sorts of models ARFs are just fine.

And kits on the high end of the scale continuum are also probably safe from ARFs. It's just too much work (and expense) to make a quality scale ARF. Sure there are a couple of them out there, such as AZM's DVII but for the most part people who are serious about scale aren't going to be buying ARFs INSTEAD of kits (or sratch building). They might buy ARFs IN ADDITION TO kits but I don't see the harm in that.

drone pilot

Mode one, I totally agree with you... The "bleeding hearts" comment was for those who never bought a Stafford kit, won't accept a changing market, and the basic facts that were stated as reasons for shutting down. I never heard any whining when the Japenese took over the glow engine market.... How many people out there have American made engines for instance.

Boomerang1

Thanks Scott (saramos). You said exactly what I was about to say, except you said it better! This is a scale forum and I'm assuming the comments are here from 'scale' flyers. I believe ARF's result in more scale models being flown because, as Scott mentioned, previously we had to build everything we flew, unless you bought a model someone else built or paid someone to build it. Average Joe would not build a scale model because it was too hard to build.

Not so now. You can glue a half dozen pieces for a sport plane together or a half dozen scale pieces for a scale plane together, it's not really much more effort. Assemble a Spitfire, why not?, it looks better than an Ugly Stick & only cost $20 more.

Where this is effecting model shops is they are all competing for your business on just one box of merchandise, just ring for the best price. We no longer have to go back for all the accessories not included in kits, the Dubro bits, the Sullivan bits, an engine mount, covering, paint, wheels. These bits were where a lot of the profit was for the LHS.

There will always be scale kits & accessories as we know them. But smaller production will mean higher prices. If you are the type that turns his nose up at your average film covered ARF and wants to build a 'real' scale model the old fashioned way you will just have to dig a little deeper. - John.

abufletcher

You know the thing that really gets me is that it actually costs MORE to build a kit than to buy an ARF. Last spring I was looking around for a "fun" model to treat myself. I saw a nice Tettra kit for a Messerschmitt 109 for around $110. But once I added in all the stuff I'd have to add to finish the kit (in a cheapest possible fashion) it was almost $60 bucks more than the fully equiped Kyosho Me109 ARF.

I bought the ARF.

allanflowers

So what kit company is next to close?

boxbeam

My Feedback: (188)

Sure do love my Sig 1/5 scale Cub and Ikon N'wst 1/5 Taylorcraft, both from kits. I have a backup kit of both just in case! I have come to learn just how important it is to keep a bottle of "debonder" on hand for those Kodak moments.

Stickbuilder

Dave,

I have repeatedly offered to teach prospective modellers how to build, and each time I get hit with the same old argument...No time to build, or I'd rather just buy one and fly it, or I can buy an ARF for less money than I would have in a kit of the same plane. So IMHO, I honestly feel that the proliferation of the ARF model airplane has certainly been a major contributor to the demise of more than one kit manufacturer. Look at how many kit producers have either closed completely, or have converted to the manufacture/distributorship of ARF models or have added ARF models to their lineup, and have cut back on the offerings of the kits. Several come to mind...Pica, Gone. Sig, More and more ARF's Great planes More ARF's and fewer kits, now JSM, Going quickly. How can anyone not see that the ARF is slowly choking the life from the building aspect of the hobby. I am not trying to start anything, but I am just stating what I observe. If not the ARF, then what is causing the demise of the kits? There are more people flying RC today than at any point in the history of the hobby. Why are they not buying the kits?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

abufletcher

At various times I've tried to interest my sons in "building" type hobbies ranging from plastic models, to Lego robotic sets, to model boat building (for a school project) to a simple Guillow's kit. It just never took. I think building (anything) requires a kind of patience that our commerical culture today no longer instills. I even tried to get my younger son involved in RC but it was just too slow for his tastes. We tend to forget this but it quite common to spend 2-3 hours at the field and only get in 20min or so of flying.

drone pilot

We old farts are victims of progress...... The now generation wants it NOW. Life in the fast lane means 'buy it and fly it". I still marvel at some of the models that I see at Scale Masters qualifiers when I can get to one. There will always be builders, but they will be rare and looked on as a curiosity (sp).

abufletcher

Actually, as long as I still have a flying field to go out to, I personally don't care if if everyone else there has an ARF or not.

bps

My Feedback: (3)

The day will come when we as flyers will no longer have a field to fly from. Government agencies are already concerned about security issues. I live in Indianapolis, and model flying is not exactly a welcomed sport. Amazes me in Chicago areas I have been to flying fields in the parks. Why build when it can be done for us? For that matter why fly a noisy model when we can use a computer?

For me the hobby looses each time a kit manufacturer or plans supplier decides to no longer supply us. This is what the hobby is all about, not about who can purchase the best looking, most scale, best flying, least expensive ARF or RTF!

For what ever reason JSM is closing I think this is a bad thing for the real hobbyist. I wish them luck.

JEB[&o]

Daryld12

My Feedback: (37)

I also enjoy scale aircraft. The fun fly, profile, funtana types do nothing for me but I will tell you that even though an ugly stick is not much to look at, it is fun to fly and beat around the sky in adverse weather conditions and when you are in the middle of building something else or have nothing else to fly at the moment. Everything I have is scale but sometimes I want to toss something around the sky with (controlled ha ha) reckless abandon just for fun and not care what happens to it. When I fly a scale plane I like to fly scale. There is nothing worse then seeing a B-17 or B-29 doing rolls, loops and attempted lomchevacs. As far as the ARF vs. Kit thing, I think it's sad to see good kit companies go out. I was heartbroken when Byron went out of kit making and stopped their Expo airshow.
I do, however, think ARFS have there place as not everyone is skilled at building even when shown. I've seen some pretty unsafe models built by people who "thought" they knew what they were doing. By the same token I've seen some great builders attempt to fly and never quite get it. I can tell you that I don't want to be anywhere near where they're flying. Some people like to build, some people like to fly and some like both. I don't claim to be an expert at either but I do enjoy both. Maybe flying a little more, in fact. That being said, I don't see a problem if the builder who can't fly well, would rather fly on a computer instead of real flying or not fly at all and just build. I also don't see a problem if you have someone that can't build well and/or has little time to build, flying an ARF instead of a kit built plane. Isn't, after all, this RC Sport primarily about having fun, flying, making new friends and escaping the "Daily Grind" into our own "Theraputic Hobby Time"? Who is anybody to say what another should or should not fly or if they should build from a kit or not? As long everyone is having a good time, who cares? Also for those "I WANT IT NOW people", well there's nothing wrong with wanting instant gratification if that's your thing, but I find more times than not that those people often get bored quick and leave the hobby anyway while the rest of us still have it in our blood. I caught the bug for this hobby about 22 years ago and am still enjoying it as if I started yesterday but the bottom line is I don't care if the guy next to me at the field builds, flys or is just there to watch as long as everyone is having a good time.

Daryl