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Old 08-03-2009, 03:40 AM
  #1626  
jerrymu1
 
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

ORIGINAL: saramos

I believe it was a volunteer and not the pilot who claimed it was a F4U-1 and not an F4U-1A. Reference material that I have shows that serial numbers 17456-19121 are -1As. (Aircraft Monograph # 19 F4U Corsair, Adam Jarski, AJ-Press) The Chino plane is 17799 which would make it a -1A, which agrees with their website data. Also, on a previous visit, I asked about the windows on the fuselage and the person I was speaking with said they had been added and are not original. Looking carefully, they are smaller than the windows on the F4U-1

I think that the Chino F4U-1 was parked in the middle hanger next to the P-51B.

Scott
The fellow I was talking with claimed to be one of the pilots who demonstrates this F4U; he told me it was an F4U-1 not a -1A. I asked if he was certain and he assured me he was and said that when the museum acquired the aircraft it had a birdcage canopy attached. I have attached pictures of the PoF F4U and another of a birdcage; they both look the same to me, obviously the area where the windows are fitted had to be cut out (the originals were flush with the fuselage skin. I have also attached a picture of the sign used when displaying this aircraft at airshows.

Beyond that, I will make another trip to the museum in a week or two and see if I can verify what type the aircraft really is.

Jerry M.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:59 AM
  #1627  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Jerry, not to belabor the point. I think you have provided enough evidence that it is indeed an earlier f4u-1. I believe what the current owners say "it had a birdcage when we got it". I think they just modernized the rear window cut-out installation a bit, and that some of the original -1 structure only facilitated that update. Just an opinion. Nice plane, and I own the video production using this plane (I recommend to Corsair lovers). I and some are still building source for the birdcage model. I will eventually shape a plug for the canopy, but am still trying to get better source (I do have some factory drawings). I want to make sure to get the correct shape for the front screen, and optional "bubble" seen on some birdcages. Does anyone know how one might use the Matt drawings for source overall and differ toward the earlier version (for competition)? I would like true scale competition recommendations here. I plan on providing the Paul Matt F4U-1A drawings for the overall plane and add the -1 source supplementarily. Well, that's my idea for now.

Edit: Oh yea Jerry, I have that same picture of the birdcage and only a couple of others. It is an uglier looking Corsair that I used to not like, but it is different. It also has a mean "war-look" that spells getting it done at the time! I grew-up watching the ol' Baa Baa Blacksheep, and they have the prettier Corsairs, but I gained an appreciation of the older -1 model as I got older (imagine that). Any source from you guys is appreciated!
Old 08-05-2009, 02:53 PM
  #1628  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Ok; here is what I know:
- The aircraft was acquired from MGM in 1970 wearing the paint scheme of a -1
- The A/C has a -1A windscreen
- To modify a -1 to a -1A requires changing three components:
o Windscreen
o Canopy
o Turtledeck panel assembly (sta-186 through sta-218)
- As Scott stated, the BuNo 17799 looks like it must be a -1A.
- The A/C has a 1-A windscreen, a -1D Canopy, and a modified turtledeck from
a -1A (note the wide frame rails at the front of the assembly)

I have attached a couple of graphics that demonstrate the diffences in the two types; I have also researched a number of websites that discuss this particular BuNo and they refer to it both as a -1 and -1A (the only difference being the canopy).

Finally, I have attached a manufacturer's plate like one that must be located on the PoF airframe; any one know where it is located?

I am tending to think old 17799 is a -1A.

Jerry M.
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Old 08-05-2009, 04:18 PM
  #1629  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

ORIGINAL: jerrymu1

Ok; here is what I know:
- The aircraft was acquired from MGM in 1970 wearing the paint scheme of a -1
- The A/C has a -1A windscreen
- To modify a -1 to a -1A requires changing three components:
o Windscreen
o Canopy
o Turtledeck panel assembly (sta-186 through sta-218)
- As Scott stated, the BuNo 17799 looks like it must be a -1A.
- The A/C has a 1-A windscreen, a -1D Canopy, and a modified turtledeck from
a -1A (note the wide frame rails at the front of the assembly)

I have attached a couple of graphics that demonstrate the diffences in the two types; I have also researched a number of websites that discuss this particular BuNo and they refer to it both as a -1 and -1A (the only difference being the canopy).

Finally, I have attached a manufacturer's plate like one that must be located on the PoF airframe; any one know where it is located?

I am tending to think old 17799 is a -1A.

Jerry M.
I have spent so much time trying to pinpoint the type of the PoF F4U that I have completely forgot to let all of you know about the great modelling examples brought to the museum by Danny and Scott.

Danny brought his new tail wheel and a pair of droppable fuel tanks about the size of my car! Scott brought his beautifully detailed wheel and his tail wheel. The work done by these two is superb! I look forward to seeing more from others on this build thread and one day to see a whole squadron of 1/6th scale F4U's flying in formation at some modeling event.

My best to all!

Jerry M.
p.s. One last item is the picture of the fin-rudder on 17799.
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Old 08-06-2009, 11:06 PM
  #1630  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Jerry, I am a bit quizzacle on the last entry. The Bureau No.s indicate certain ranges of aircraft may be 1's or 1-a's. Your last artifact is a plate that clearly shows the -1 designation. I don't have a strong opinion either way, and not overly concerned, but that last evidence (you provided) seems to make me lean toward it being a -1. The elliptical cut outs already existing behind the canopy also tend to make me lean toward the early model (why would anyone cut those out of a pristine Corsair)? I think that the Bu-No's are far less indicative than an actual plate stating it as a -1? BuNo's have little bearing on a manufacturer getting one last early model out the door that started as a -1? I go with the plate, and the fact that it has the rear cut outs. Every other idication is ambivalent source material. Go with the plate, I say...-1.

Now, yes...we will fly these things in formation someday (get yer flying skills in order)!
Old 08-06-2009, 11:43 PM
  #1631  
Chad Veich
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

I posted regarding the PoF Corsair over on the WIX forum which is a full scale warbirds related web site. Nothing posted thus far is what I would call difinitive but it has stirred some interesting conversation. Link below for those interested.

http://warbirdinformationexchange.or...ic.php?t=31338

Eric, the manufacture's plate posted by Jerry is not that of the PoF Corsair. And to your querry regarding the cutting of the rear windows into a pristine Corsair, that can be answered by the fact that they were added for the rear seat passenger. Not much fun riding back there if you can't see anything but the back of the pilot's seat! Some more examples of the cutting of pristine Corsairs below.








And that's no where near a complete sampling. I think the vast majority of flyable Corsairs these days have been fitted with a jump seat and rear windows.
Old 08-07-2009, 12:13 AM
  #1632  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Fair enough Chad. Shame on them for putting an ugly box window in one of those examples (apparently many aviation types have zero aesthetic sense). The cut outs on the model in question at least modeled the early prototype F4U-1 shape (if indeed it isn't the original cut out)? One still has to say this could go either way. I guess Jerry shouldn't have confused us with a plate that didn't come from the model in question? I didn't here him make that clear! Who knows? Restorers with plenty of money do what they want with their aircraft, including taking parts of many and choosing one of the BuNo's from whichever model they choose...I suppose (just like hot rodders with various major car parts and VIN no's). It is mildly fun fodder to discuss here I suppose. How's it going though, for our design...our vaunted master of Vaught! Ha ha ha ha..
Old 08-07-2009, 12:32 AM
  #1633  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

ORIGINAL: Riddle4U

Shame on them for putting an ugly box window in one of those examples...
You think that's bad take a look at the Lone Star Flight Museum's Hellcat. This one wins the gold star for aesthetically poor rear window engineering as well as one heck of an awful paint job. Looks like an airliner Hellcat! My opinion of course.

Old 08-07-2009, 12:43 AM
  #1634  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Simply hideous Chad! More money than any kind of sense I guess? How can one appreciate the aesthetics of these classics and then *******ize them (put mildly)? I agree with you! If us poor modelers were in charge...there'd be some great looking restorations. Don't ya think? I guess when you spend millions do what you want..but the paint jobs aren't even factory spec (let alone nice field painting).

Edit: Yes, I see now where Jerry mentioned the plaque/plate he showed was merely an example. I missed that wording...nice, interesting stuff Jerry.
Old 08-07-2009, 01:32 AM
  #1635  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Here is a photo that Danny took of the plaque in the Planes of Fame hanger. It states that their plane is an F4U-1A.

Scott
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:26 AM
  #1636  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Apparently, Hinton, which is a major player with this plane says it was a -1 and had the birdcage replaced. Thanks Scott! I guess the saga continues. That plaque is not an official manufacturer's plate...so I guess only adds the opinion of person/person's idea of origination. I appreciate the Bureau #'s and all, that is something. Why (and I here it second-hand on blogs), does Hinton say it was a -1, and had a birdcage? Heck, me know not. Maybe their intent was to duplicate a 1a and they call it as such? I suppose it is just fun to discuss here momentarily. Probably it is good to stick with our project conversations fairly soon, though. I hope further talk on this will/would be definitive before dragging it out much longer (none of us are losing sleep over the matter, I hope).
Old 08-18-2009, 10:15 AM
  #1637  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

A couple other clues that the Chino Corsair is closer to a "1a" is the presence of the six inch stall bar on the starboard wing, and the absence of the retractable landing light.

Jim
Old 08-19-2009, 04:31 PM
  #1638  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Here's some information from the history card of the Chino Corsair from a thread started by Mark Foster who flew this Corsair.
The entire thread is located here: http://tld-productions.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=393

I'm looking for information on the history of Planes of Fame's F4U-1A Corsair Bureau Number 17799. Have you come across any? I currently fly this aircraft and believe it served in the Pacific during WWII, but haven't been able to find anything specific. There's a missing year of detail in its US Navy history card.

Here's what I know...
Corsair F4U-1A 17799

A friend of mine had what he calls a "history card" on the Museum's Corsair. Check out the chronology below, noting that the big mystery is the time period between 6 September 1943 to August-October of 1944. I am almost 100% confident that 17799 was in the Pacific during that time period prior to coming back for overhaul and redeployment.

-31 August 1943 Accepted by the USN from Chance Vought at Stratford, CN
-6 September 1943 Delivered to the USN
-August-October 1944 To San Diego for overhaul and repair
-November 1944 Date card indicates location "unreported"
-December 1944 To VF-84, San Diego, Training, commanded by Lt. Cdr. Roger R. Hedrick, USN, VF-84 re-equipped with F6F-5E/P on 15 December 1944
-January 1945 To VBF-14, based Ream Field, San Ysidro, CA. Traning, commanded by LCDR. L.E. Harris, USN.
-February-March 1945 To VBF-98, commissioned 1 February 1945 at Los Alamitos, CA. Traning, commanded by Lt. Carlton B. Starkes, USNR, Acting, until 18 August 1945
-April-June 1945 To aircraft pool, Carrier Air Service Unit (CASU) 33.
-1 August 1945 VBF-84 re-equipped with F6F and transferred to NAAS, Holtville, CA for rocket and night training.
-August 1945 At CASU-33, storage.
-31 August 1945 Stricken, TT unknown.
-1946? Aquirred by MGM for navy film that was not produced. Stored outside MGM Studios Lot 5, Culverton, CA. Noted derelict by author James Farmer, 1969.
-1970 The THE AIR MUSEUM, Ontario, CA
-September 1977 Registered N83782 to The Air Museum, Chino, CA
-1977-1978 One of four Corsairs to fly in the second and last season of Baa Baa Blacksheep.

NOTE: USCAR lists this aircraft as c/n 3884, an FG-1D number. Ogden's museum guide also lists this c/n. Two British survivor lists from Fly Past magazine and Warbirds Worldwide magazine list this N number as Bu-56198, as later build F4U-1A.

All of the above was on the paper I got from a friend. I don't know how accurate it is, but most of it makes sense to me. I've attached a very interested spreadsheet of Corsair losses during WWII. You'll see that the Museum bureau number close to some of those listed on it. Some famous squadrons operated numbers only a few away from 17799, including VMF-214 Black Sheep and VF-17 Jolly Rogers. Interestingly, one of the main guys of VF-17 was Roger Hedrick who later went on to command VF-84 aboard USS Bunker Hill. You'll see in 17799's history that it went to that squadron after "overhaul" but was it for training locally or back to sea to fight?

I think that everyone is looking at the history card that really doesn't show the "year" just the month and assuming that the later dates are in 43 rather than 44. There is a year missing in there, that's why it is possible it was with VF-84 AFTER returning from combat and being overhauled. What do you think?

Blue skies,

Mark Foster
Old 08-20-2009, 12:45 AM
  #1639  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build


ORIGINAL: rwright142

-1977-1978 One of four Corsairs to fly in the second and last season of Baa Baa Blacksheep.
How cool is that, I have touched the plane that was in the series that made me fall in love with the plane...
Talk about comming full circle

Thanks for that great list of facts Richard!

danny
Old 08-20-2009, 04:45 PM
  #1640  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

From my friend at Vought (OK, he doesn't know he's my friend but he has been kind enough to answer a LOT of my questions without telling me to leave him alone)

From: Pete Elizondo
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:34:12 PM
Subject: F4U-1A

Our records carry Bu.no. 17799 as an F4U-1A. After development of the raised seat and the bubble canopy the Navy requested that the change be incorporated as soon as possible without seriously interfering production. Several F4U-1s were delivered and were later modified to the -1A configuration. Since our production Bloc records have been lost I cannot confirm at which serial no. our production line began to deliver -1As. The serial no. above is early enough that it could be one of those modified to the -1A after delivery. Therefore the claim that it originally had a bird cage canopy is probably true. Sorry that is the best I can do.
Pete
So it sounds like there is a very good chance that it was a -1 that was converted to -1A after production. I guess that means everyone was right hahaha
Old 08-20-2009, 04:57 PM
  #1641  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

I know what you mean Danny - I loved that series too and definitely got me hooked on Corsairs.

I have been lucky enough to sit in the one that was filmed whenever a Corsair was shot down in the series. It's being restored in Cincinnati and it had a smoke system installed for the purpose of looking like a plane in distress. So, whenever you see the TV series and see a Corsair smoking like crazy, it was that plane. It's the one that I have all of the pictures of in the "Corsair Graveyard" thread.

Old 08-20-2009, 06:20 PM
  #1642  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

The following appears on Mike Schneider's F4U website, http://www.f4ucorsair.com

From the 759th aircraft onwards, the framed canopy of the F4U-1 was quickly replaced by a much neater plexiglass "bulb" with small frames. The raising of the seat by 18cm slightly improved the view over the nose, and the new type also offered some rearward vision. Later this modification was associated with a change of designation to F4U-1A, which was not used at the time.

GeneH
Old 08-20-2009, 09:30 PM
  #1643  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Interesting stuff gentlemen. I am doing the birdcage. Some of my source lists individual birdcage models as "unglazed". What does this mean? It is unclear from color plates visually, what this means. The only pic I have of a birdcage shows the "dished" area behind the cockpit with plexiglass (perspec) glazing over the dished area. There is also a sliver moon shaped glazing which fills in the gap between canopy and dished area behind the sliding canopy. Is this the "glazing"...I am inclined to believe they refer to glazing of the dished area (just like a P-40 for example). Any pictures fellows? - Eric
Old 09-05-2009, 07:08 PM
  #1644  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Gents,

I thought it to be time to tell you all about the big changes in my life that have happend lately.
First of all, I moved to Germany, to be closer to my job (now just a 30 min drive in stead of 1.10 hours flight, taking around 3 hours all in).
The reason for wanting to live closer to my work and therefore having more time at home with my girl, is because she is building me my first son while we speak.
She estimates to finish and deliver him somewhere between the middle and end of December.

This all means I won't be doing much building the comming months, while I redecorate our new house.
This also means I'm gonna have a brand new and much bigger building-room to set up

Another bit of news is that I have taken delivery of the heart and soul of my Corsair, a Seidel ST-7-70 7 cylinder, 70ccm radial engine, running glow fuel.
It will turn a 24x8 3 blade.
Mr. Seidel is making me custom ring-exhaust with 2 exit pipes approx. at the scale location, this is where the scale exhausts on each side of the cowl will be connected to.
It is gonna take some serious shoe-horning to get this monster inside the cowl, but it will be worth it... Isn't she pretty?

Cheers, Daddy Danny

P.S.:
I had to scroll to the third page to find our thread, shame on us!
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Old 09-05-2009, 10:02 PM
  #1645  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Danny
Congratulations on your move, your engine, and most of all your baby-in-the-making! Yes, your modelling will slow down for awhile but later on it will pick up and be even more fun. Is the Seidel glow or gas?
Sam
Old 09-05-2009, 10:25 PM
  #1646  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Congratulations on all of the news! Where in Germany will you be located? My daughter, grand daughter, and son-in-law live in Schweinfurt. The girls are here for a few more months because my son-in-law is serving in Iraq so they came to visit while he was deployed. In December they will all go back and we will visit at some point. Anyway, congratulation to you and your girl and the pilot to be
Old 09-05-2009, 10:33 PM
  #1647  
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Looks great Danny! Glad to hear you are gaining building space. It's wonderful to hear that your xmas present is coming along smooth and healthy[sm=thumbup.gif]. Give my regards to your girl. (i'm imbarrased to admit that her name excapes me[sm=red_smile.gif]

I am finally back to my regular schedule at work and should be able to get back to the Corsair soon.

I've been putting together my new goodie over the past couple of days, a new computer. This should handle Solidworks well.
Here are the specs:

Antex mid tower case
Asus P6T motherboard
6 Gigs Corsair 1600 ddr3 tripple channel memory
Intel I7 Core 920 (2.66 Ghz)
1TB SATA hdd (I will be adding a second one from my old system for raid)
ATI FirePro V3750 Workstation graphics card (Should arrive on Tues. Currently a cheap nvidia card installed for setup and testing)
MasterCooler heat sink with twin 120mm fans
680w power supply
2 120mm front case fans, 1 120mm rear case fan, 1 140mm top case fan.
cheap DVDR drive

The I7 overclocks well. I had it running at 3.9Ghz but at that speed and at 99% load on all processors, the temp gets uncomfortably high at over 95C. I dropped it down to 3.7Ghz and it idles in the mid 30s and peaks about 70 at full load.
Benchmark scores about 13.5 times faster than my P4 3Ghz.
I'm going to give Vista 64 a try. If it doesn't work out, I'll downgrade to XP 64 or upgrade to 7 when released. Now I have to start saving for a copy of Solidworks. I may have found a copy of 2008 for a good price, but it's still enough that I'll have to save for a bit.

Scott


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Old 09-06-2009, 09:28 AM
  #1648  
rwright142
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Scott,
I'm an IT admin so I can appreciate the specs! Nice box! I have been running W7 for almost a year now and love it. The first beta had some video and audio issues but this last one is rock solid. You will definitely want it and not XP, assuming SolidWorks has no problems with it. I don't think you'll like Vista but that's just my opinion.

As for the status of my Corsair build, I'm still working on the home we just bought. I have a lot of new tools ready to go into my shop but won't be starting on it for awhile so I'm just lurking for now, watching you guys build.

I wanted to go to the AMA this weekend - they have a Warbirds event every Labor Day weekend that is HUGE but I committed to working around the house. I hope to get back on the cockpit soon.
Old 09-06-2009, 02:58 PM
  #1649  
Bill Jennings
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

G'Day Danny.
Good for you mate!!

Regards.
Bill
Old 09-09-2009, 05:05 PM
  #1650  
Chad Veich
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Default RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build

Anybody know the width of the pinking tapes on the tail of the full size Corsair?


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