Hi all

I'm really not sure where to post this. The scalemasters web site has a forum section but is not too heavily trafficed. I thought I might start here. This is only my own opinion but is intended to prompt some healthy discussion.

I have been building and competing in scale events for nearly 30 years. I am no where close to the real masters...those guys that build and fly superlatively....closely followed by the outstanding builders who find the outstanding pilots to fly their extraordinary creations. I admire those pilots skilled enough to qualify for Top Gun. I have only qualified and flown once in the Scalemasters (and finished poorly). There...now you know this post is from a relatively lowly competitor simply expressing an opinion. My desire is to establish the Scalemasters on the same footings as Top Gun. Years ago, the Nationals would have been the third member of this trioka but somewhere, it lost it's "elan". This is not to denegrate the contestants; many of whom fly in both Top Gun and the Scalemasters but the competition itself has lost something becoming more akin to a fly-in or a low key competition.....

As most of us know, the US Scalemasters was founded on a dream of superlative scale competition. I actually was priviledged to speak with Harris about a year prior to his death. A more humble gentlemen, you would never find. He flew Hellcats in the second world war and had a passion for scale competition. At the time, he was growing concerned that the competition would fade as interest was being diverted away from scale modeling. He annointed Earl Aune to carry on the dream and Earl and his wife, Josie worked tirelessly to keep the competition vibrant and growing but it took it's toll. Covering the costs of putting on a competition and trying to locate a suitable venue each year, alternating between east and west was a tough challenge. Though the numbers are holding relatively steady each year, there does not seem to be the growth that one might hope to see.

Top Gun has established itself as the pre-eminent scale competition drawing contestants from all over the world. One reason is the tireless efforts of Frank Tiano, who is a born promoter. Another is the solid venue at Lakeland Airport in Florida and the third, I believe, is the fact that it stays in the same place every year! Venues really are the foundation of a successful event. Yes, one must have a safe and well organized event but without the venue, no one will show up!

My proposal to grow the US scalemasters championships follows this basic premise. I would propose that this fine competition locate an outstanding venue and stay there! I would further propose that the scalemasters must recognize that Top Gun has the east coast wrapped up. Therefore, the scalemasters must locate in the west! I understand that the great mid-america is left with a drive in either direction but the fact is that the population centers are on the east and west coasts. As far as a suitable venue, I would recommend finding an outstanding site in the Las Vegas area. Picking an Oct/Nov competition date will allow contestants to enjoy nearly perfect weather. For years, the old QSAA held a huge fly-in just outside Vegas on a dry lakebed. This drew an international crowd. Las Vegas provides entertainment away from the competition which is extremely important for those with spouses who grow weary of sitting at model airplane competitions for days on end. Once upon a time, owner Bill Bennett of Circus Circus sponsored the Tournament of Champions, a pattern event. Once Bill passed on, the competition died but during it's heyday, it drew a large crowd. Once comfortably esconed in the area, it may be possible to locate a willing sponsor or two to help the competition defray some of the costs. If potential competitors know the location each year, they can plan to attend much earlier than they can currently do now due to the fact that they may not be close enough to the following year's event to attend.

While I believe these competitions should remain within reach of the "average" modeler (not require a 7 figure checking account to field a competitive plane), I also believe that the Scalemasters will have to start attracting a larger following or risk a slow, spiral into irrelevance and the only way to do this is to plant it in a venue which will draw potential competitors in greater numbers.

So that's it...my thoughts and only my thoughts. Some (or many) may completeley disagree. I would like to hear others opinions.

LA7Flier, I agree with all you have said. Vegas would be a great place to have the big west coast scale event. But.... Frank Tiano does not live there. We need people to step up to the challenge! For now, I do not see anyone. This must be created from the bottom up.


Maybe post this in the scale forum.

Thread moved to RC Scale Aircraft Forum.

Ken

I agree with both of you, One place same time every year and it will need a ground swell of support. Something else is it shouldnt be put up against Top Gun but the should feed each other. So what are the differences between the Scalemasters and Top Gun? Knowing these could only help in growing both events.

You'd probably have to think not in terms of "geographic distribution" but rather the distribution of actual modelers. My impression is that the midwest (as opposed to what Californians consider the midwest, e.g. Nevada ) is the very heart of RC modeling in America.

I think what you want is more a Top Gun for the west coast than a championship that the Scale Masters is suppose to be. In this day and age no one wants to travel; they want everything at home. My buddy qualified for the Scale Masters this year, but it being 2000 miles away, no way. 2010 it will be close enough, if we can qualify, to matter. At least when the Nats traveled, there was variety of the winners form year to year.
It is almost unfair to have a true championship because not all can be able to go to any one place. I would like to see regional championships after the qualifiers.

Hello? Anyone from California or Nevada around here?....................... I did not think so!


Regional championships! There is a good idea! But there is no one out here to do that ether! Talk Talk Talk But no action!


Don't look at me! Someone has to be a contestant too! I'll do that.

I've attended several Scale Masters over the years and it seems that when the SM is on the west coast attendance is low. The Biggest SM's are those held in Dayton or that area. It draws modelers from the east and west coasts.

I would agree that a fixed venue where ever it is is the wise choice. The Nats no longer roam and TG has never roamed. Having a fixed location allows for proper planning by the contestants and the event organizers. The issue then would be who would run the event? Normally its a club that does so. This would have to change of course.

Hi Bob,

Actually, Top Gun did start out by roaming a bit.....the 2nd event in 1990 was held in Mesa, AZ. I think Frank quickly found out that the logistics involved of conducting an event like TG 2000 miles from home base was tough to deal with. He went back to Florida and stayed there.

There is no doubt that the biggest participation in the Scale Masters Championships was when it was held in the midwest. I can remember having 75 or so contestants at Dayton one year.

I have flown at many SM Championships....and have traveled to the west coast at least three times plus Vegas, Phoenix, Dallas and Kansas City. Not too many years ago, you could ship a model crate across the country round trip for less than 200.00, airline tickets were cheap, we got special rates on motels.....you could make the whole trip for less than 1000.00. Things are just different now. The economic climate is bad and everything costs so much that not as many people can afford to travel. I think the interest is still there, it's just that people have to work harder to make ends meet now....which results in less time for modeling and travel, and fewer dollars for that big time model project. Heck, even TG is down some in attendance.

The alternating East coast, west coast venue is probably the most fair....but it is a nightmare for those trying to conduct the event. If you go strictly West coast, it means not many East coast guy's will make it and vice versa. If you go with a permanent midwest location, you run the risk of neither East or West coast guys making it....although if I had to vote, that would be my choice.

I tend to agree with Jeff in the fact it is about the money. Most people just simply cannot travel like years past, myself i am unemployed, there is no way i can make the long distance trips any more. Not that i don't enjoy getting out and driving, that is not the issue. I too have done the long drives out west, Dallas, Kansas City, etc. But sure couldn't do it today. The largest attendance for Scale Masters has always in been in the Midwest. That is not to say it should not be on the East or West coast. I think going to different sites gives more of an opportunity for others to compete that otherwise could not or would not make the trip. As far as the numbers being down at Top Gun, yes, i agree the economy has an effect on it but IMHO there are others factors that have brought the numbers down. I too have competed at TG, but not likely will i make that trip again either and for more reasons than money. That is another discussion altogether.

[8D]

With the US, we like pro sports. We dont have the Olympic spirit to do it for the honor of competition as a large group. Bigger is better for entertainment; that is why Top Gun works. The problem is Scale competition is not about the crowd but about the contestants, so unless there is a spin put on it, the average guy does not get it. That is why there is Top Gun envy, that everyone at regular contests should not have; because, it is a show in the form of a contest.

[8D]

I did qualify for scalemasters this year with a Fokker D7 but was unable to attend. There is no doubt, I would have had a hard time winning, mainly because of my flight scores. not that it is impossible, but if any wind appears, the WW2 aircraft have a distinct advantage. I am currently getting ready to start building a new WW2 competition model just for this reason.
I am not pushing for any rule changes, this is just the nature of the scale event as I see it. I am new to scale but it is my future.

Didn't Jerramy Fursman win with a Tiger moth this year? Not WWI but close

Just one more reason to heap upon the many other reasons that competition doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Change the era of model I model in order to do better in competition??? I'd rather take up knitting!

That is exactly one of the problems - ideas seem to fall on deaf ears. The problems have caused the lack of participation. I'm on the phone with guys all of the time that discuss the same issues. The number one complaint I hear is the judging is often sloppy or suspect. A distant second is the flying site or its location and not knowing where it will be next year. Even guys that are close to the meet aren't going to attend if they don't think they will get a fair shake. If a guy knows the meet is going to be somewhere every year, he/she can plan to attend and begin a quality build - even if they will have to attend in 3 years.

Masters needs to "land" somewhere and stay. Contrary to some beliefs, some of the biggest years were on the West Coast, in particular at Mile Square Park. It was a good site - another problem that some of the Masters suffer from - some of the sites aren't really cut out for these types of models.

When the meet was a primarily Southern California venue, there was more sponsorship from local places. When you constantly move, you cannot build a support base because you are not going to be around next year. Motels are more likely to work with you on special rates because they will have your business next year.

An example I use is the Superbowl - try to follow this. It is held in the same location every year - your television. Yes, in it's case the physical location changes for very few, but the money is there because the location is the same - television. If "Joes Used Cars" is in town, and the owner is inclined to sponsor the meet, he will be more likely to do so the next year, or his competitor may want to get in on the action. If that name can be more tightly tied to the Masters name, (better than) "Scale Masters presented by . . . " or some variation, then the television and print coverage is an added sponsorship value. It is impossible to drum up money when you just roll into town Thursday, and back out Sunday afternoon.

The idea of a national championship is not going to happen now. The money is not there to travel - but why not set up a Masters in the Midwest and one on the West Coast. There is no one recognized champion now - who is better, the winner of Top Gun or Masters? Why just have one?


The format needs to change. More optional maneuvers and some of the mandatory maneuvers need to go away and/or change. With the way the points are given now, if you are a point behind after the first round, you probably have wasted your trip. With the way the scoring is laid out, all but a few are eliminated in static, sometimes incorrectly by judges that don't know what they are looking at. The same goes with the judging in the flying.

With more optional maneuvers, it becomes more of a freestyle viewing experience - fun to watch. One reason the public doesn't stick around is it is boring to watch. If you have ever been to one, you hear the gasps and applause at the high speed jet flyby, or the bomber dropping bombs, and then you see the yawns during the figure 8, etc. Since the scoring is wrapped up, there is no reason to stick around - no "finish" so to speak.

If Top Gun is doing great - then see what they are doing. Why not have a promoters option - in other words is some big gun scale guy doesn't qualify or attempt to - invite them.

The Masters organization needs to contact competitors and others in the scale modeling fraternity and get some new ideas and do them. If something doesn't work this year, change it again. At the core of the contest, it is the same as 1983, but scale modeling has progressed exponentially in 26 years. At Hemet a couple of years ago, there were a few of us that in 30 minutes came up with a whole new format including some of what I mentioned above - but you would have to forget the old days and be ready to seriously change.

Dennis

Although it would make it harder for the judges, I think a free style flight of 10 maneuvers where the plane is constantly watches to see if it performed a flight like a real plane instead of chopped up. One after another; if you are climbing for a 3 turn spin you are being judged. It should be like a pilot check ride in the real world; you are being observed all the time. I also believe all planes should do 10 flying maneuvers. If you build a plane with retracts and flaps, it should bring your flight realism score up to par but you should not be able to get a "free"9-10 because; if I build a fully scale shock absorbing fixed gear verses a set of Robart retracts on a P-51, should I not get the same consideration for a complex gear? I think the crowd would rather see 10 things even if a B-17 has to make 3 bombing runs to make 10; it is what that plane does. With the more complex planes, it becomes a contest to see how few flight maneuvers can be done and to get free scores.

As a regular participant, I will interject my .02. First, flight judging has not favored "heavies" in 4 out of the last 5 I have attended. I fly WW1 and I am confident that regardless of wind conditions that I can compete and score. I practice in the wind, most light plane pilots don't. As to static, I have seen glaring inconsistancies and/or lack of education in the judges. That being said, I believe that they have judged competitor's fairly based upon whatever criteria they select. That has created frustration for me based upon loss of points in craftsmanship due to the fact that I weather to reflect in service aircraft. I don't like shiny warbirds. One solution is alternating East and West to a fixed sight, Say Indiana and a appropriate West Coast Venue. That is easy to say as I don't have to organize the myraid of volunteers to organioze and run the event. This is not a for profit deal like Top Gun. The big difference to me is, FT pays to get the judges he wants there and thus ensres consistant judging. I always get what I deseve at TG whether I like it or not. I for one, am more interested in generating interest in participation at local qualifiers rather than at the big show. If we take care of the qualifiers, the cahmpionship eventually will take care of it's self. I for one, am joining Scale Masters to try and activly affect the out come. I am a staunch advocate of the concept but do believe it needs to be updated to reflect our current reality. Before making sweeping statements regarding location, ask yourself, who will do the work? Sorry for rambling on but I have lots of thoughts and concerns on this topic.

DJ

[8D]

You're absolutely right. I really didn't want to post anything for the fear of seeming like a sideline critic and get blasted for some new ideas. I realize there is more here than the obvious, but not everyone involved is a competitor.

I don't want to (and won't) name names, or locations, but in my opinion there are some obvious problems. After thinking about it, I have been to 10 Masters, both as a modeler (a kid) being a spectator and otherwise.

Yes, and it hurts the better quality models and the Vintage stuff, which hardly existed in the early years of Masters.

What I said about judges not knowing what they are looking at. Now I'm not trying to kick anyone, but Warbirds are not smooth and shiny or in great condition. If you go to a museum where the aircraft actually fly, you will see how nasty they are, and there isn't a Pacific island jumping war going on, not to mention WWI. A Blue Angels F-18 should look pristine to a point, but when you look at a color and markings sheet, the knowledge of what it should look like is lost. An Angels F-18 and a Desert Storm F-18 should be judged on how they actually appear. Judging should reflect that not all landings are perfect - take Southwest to the next Masters and check it out. I believe this is only a tweaking, not a major overhaul. I'll bet many or all of us have seen soft scoring on a nicely weathered plane.

You know, Top Gun pulled some, if not most, of the Midwest / East Coast competition from day 1. Why go to that big show if you already have another closer. So my idea of having 2 or more Masters is just a "let's have one for them" idea. I don't know why Masters can't be a money maker to help cover the costs either. I don't know if you have to have a fly off, if I won any of them I'd go home feeling fine, considering you would have to then to to Top Gun and sweep, and the World Masters, etc., etc., all in one year to be the "Superstar champion".

The judges should be knowledgeable enough to know how a real aircraft flies. If they aren't, they have to business in that chair. There was a thread a couple of years ago where I (and will only speak for myself, but wasn't the only one) was in the flight box and watched a judge that didn't watch the maneuver (s) and then looked at the sheet next to him, conversed and then made up his score (s). You can't have that - it's not judging.. When I asked what would have been done (in the thread) I was told that they would have talked to him - but the round was lost. Not good enough. The same for static. There needs to be a protest clause that would allow someone else to review a bummer score when a color/marking judge thought the black on the paper was blue (another true example). If 1 point wipes you out, then you have to clean up the process.


As to the "freestyle" type of deal. I am not going to take credit for all of this, so don't give it to me - some is mine. You would fly 10 maneuvers, but eliminate the ones that are obsolete.

For example: You have to takeoff and land, so that should be 2, and the flypast is probably right - but the figure 8 is a waste of time (flight time) that doesn't prove anything. The reason as I understand it is to show control of the model, etc., but really? Any wind or a judge that isn't in the correct chair will see it differently. Too subjective. No full size aircraft does one normally. At this level we have other flight maneuvers that will show a pilot can or can't fly and how well. You would explain to the judges your maneuvers and explain how they perform exactly as now for the options. They would perform as now, with your setup legs in between them.

An opening canopy should be expected, not a free option. How scale does it function, and is a judge going to know how to correctly score its function to full size? So it's a 10. That is rough if you lost a point or two across static and the last 2 rounds compared to that guy.

The conversation I was in was similar to this: Drop the figure 8, and some of the other boring stuff and allow bomb runs, rolls, and other that are applicable to the full size aircraft. Every flight is not the same, so spectators are more interested. Judge realistically on what the aircraft does. A jet is fast, forget this unrealistic speed of flight deal - keep it in mind a flyby might be Mach 2. The Fokker Triplane might blow around like the full size did. This obviously is not an open ended deal, but you also have to keep in mind that parameters that the model will fly in and keep some realistic perspective.

Static judging won't be final - there is an option for a bad score for somebody that may not have been correct. Possibly the documentation would change to reflect weathering. You fly 4 rounds and at the end of it, you even up the score, and have a final playoff round (or two?) for the top 5 or whatever number in the points. Now a guy that is 3 points back has a chance and it is exciting to watch. The flight judging has to clean up, so that a beautiful landing that is given a 7.5 while the next line gives a 9 for one that prangs in. The judges would be mixed so that you don't fly in the "bad set" that rotated the other rounds. A playoff deal also eliminates one bum set of judges from having a huge affect on the outcome.

Yes, and there is this same thread on another site that I have mixed results posting on for some reason - I just picked this one. I don't believe I would be well thought of on the US Scalemasters site with my views, not being a competitor, but if there is anyone that would like to see that mid/late 80's glory of Master return is myself and everyone at my shop.

Dennis

Well, first, I am not trying to offend or stir up hard feelings.

Like the old saying "a doctor has to cut to heal", when you take on judges and the establishment I perceive that it won't be popular based on my experience, but I may be wrong. I probably am. If you want to cut and paste - have at it. Credit me so the criticism isn't aimed at you - same goes for anyone on the other thread (another site), I am not confident where I stand there any longer. Yesterday I figured I would be flamed like a Zero leaking fuel.

We are not a member of USSMA, and I never considered that there was a forum there, I was only responding to what I had seen here and on the other thread.

You know, I had a very spirited conversation with Harris Lee in 1992 in the Zap Tap room at about 11 p.m. about various things. Harris was 'upset' about some of the BVM type jets and the fact that they were glass, and not really built (think ARF's). This afternoon we laughed about that night and the fact that I said the hobby was changing, and this was the way it would be some day. I was 25 and he probably thought I was crazy, but he listened (and told some really good stories also). We had a great time that night, but the scale hobby has changed - none of us realized what we would see 17 years later.

Masters is still "the" meet in my opinion, although I have never been to Top Gun. In our view (Cuckoo clock sound here), Masters is a major sporting event in this aspect of the hobby - not to deflect, but as is Top Gun. We need to recapture the allure of it.

I'm a phone call away, or e-mail, I really don't PM, so that is probably not good - if I can help. I return calls if you get the machine - e mail also.

530-742-3957
[email protected]

thanks

Dennis