Lozenge
 

A friend of mine & I want to have some 1/10 & 1/6 scale lozenge made up at a printing client of mine. What is the best iron on fabric to use. Thanks.

RE: Lozenge
 

GTM is made from normal cotten linen and glued on with fabric glue. Not easy but more accurate for the period. I'd say the Nelson would be my personal choice if the printing process would work on it. I believe it is fuel proof off the roll.

Mark

RE: Lozenge
 

I don't know, but maybe is this what you are looking for? [link=http://www.flight-depot.com/cms/flightdepotshop/scaleaufkleber/042ae6993d108ba11/index.php]Lozenge in 1/10 to 1/6 scale[/link]

Teus

RE: Lozenge
 

My favorite covering material is Solartex. If you could get it to work with it that would be great. The Losenge hurdle prevents many from building their DVII in the desired scheme, let alone any other model that used it. Good luck. If it works I will be one of the first in line.
29cm is only 11". The covering shown in the link is too small.

RE: Lozenge
 

I believe that the Lozenge was sewn together in strips parallel to the wing ribs at 1/6 and 1/10 scale the width is probably accurate. Glenn Torrance covered this in his 1/3rd scale DVI build on RCSB.

Mark

RE: Lozenge
 

Can you find out what kind of ink they use? I would like to silkscreen some my self but dont want that rubbery t-shirt stuff and something that wont melt in the clear coat.

RE: Lozenge
 

I was unable to translate the website but I just saw the dimension and it looked like it was for plastic models or something.
I have used Glenn's fabric and it is wonderful but only available for larger sizes. It is also not practical for a smaller model and requires a good amount of work.
The full scale fabric was sewn together and there were seams at every 4th rib. For a smaller model I think it would be better to just have a full roll of covering and then if the modeler wants to simulate the seam that would be their option.

RE: Lozenge
 

Hopefully we will have something that works on smaller airplanes soon. I have a 1/10 scale Fokker DVII to try it on. Picking the right covering for smaller models is the first order of business. 1/6 scale should not be a problem finding material.

RE: Lozenge
 

Having to to deal with the lozenge has certainly put me off thinking about certain projects! From what I can understand of the German on that site, we're talking about water-slide decals ("nassschiebe-decal" ). The pattern repeats so that multiple decales could be laid down next to each other. This is an interesting idea but would have to be clear-coated.

I've always liked the idea of trying to produce this printed pattern using the Japanese woodblock technique where you'd have a set of registered printing blocks, one for each color. There would probably be some incidental color overlapping but this is exactly what you get on the original. But this would have to be done before covering of course so there's the question of what kind of fabric and what kind of ink.

Another idea inspired by my travels is to use the "batik" process where fabric is selectively coated with wax and then dyed. Then the fabric is boiled to remove the wax, a new pattern of wax is applied (for example covering the first color) and then the fabric is dyed again. I'm see some pretty amazing batik works of art.

RE: Lozenge
 

Arizona modelers will print in different scales but I have seen the AZM fabric in person and there is not a lot of definition between the colors. That is what is so great about Glenn's fabric, it is extremely vibrant. It seems there have been coverings on the market at different times like super coverite, but I think the market is thin. Anyone interested in producing and selling covering in a specific size may need to decide what the best sizes are based upon what people are building or what kits are on the market. Balsa USA has a new 1\4 scale coming out.
I would love to see some 1\10th 5 color on something lightweight like coverlight or something.

RE: Lozenge
 

About 10 years ago I built a DVII from RCM plans. It was around 1/5th scale. For the lozenge the designer of this model. (Gordon Whitehead) also did a stencil for each color. You cut out each color and placed the darkest color stencil on the wing and painted them first. Then onto the next lightest color and so on. It was tedious but worked out quite well. I covered my model with 21st Century fabric, then painted it with water based enamals. I used polyurathane to fuel proof it for glow. Not sure if you could get a set of those stencils as RCM is no longer in publication. Not sure if I still have my set or not.

Hope this hleps as an alternative to rpinting fabric.

John B.

RE: Lozenge
 

This is probably what I would end up doing if I ever get around to that LVG VI! :D The problem in terms of making a commercially viable product is that there are both 4-color and 5-color patterns with different colors for top vs. bottom. Once you add in the different scale you have a really miniscule market for any particular product (for example 4-color, top-colors, at 1/6 scale).

Add to this that there is a lot of debate regarding just what the original colors were like. The GTM fabric looks a little pale to my eyes.

RE: Lozenge
 

ghost,
Balsa USA has been working on a lozenge Solartex for awhile. I saw a swatch of it at Toledo where they said it would be ready by summer's end. I asked again at the Dawn Patrol Fly-in in Dayton this fall and was told they were having trouble printing it on the shorter rolls.

The trouble with lozenge is that there were two types used on fighters (4 and 5 color) and then the hexagonal lozenge used on bombers (I think this was 3 color). You have to thoroughly research the particular aircraft you're modeling to find out which had which lozenge. Then of course, there's the endless arguments about the PROPER colors (ask that one on the Aerodrome and you get a dozen answers and three fights).

If you get a hankering to try painting your own, Traplet plans service offers a stencil in (I think) 1/7 scale which can be enlarged or reduced to fit. It's tedious, but it gets the job done in the colors YOU think are correct. Good luck.

papermache

RE: Lozenge
 

ghost -

The lozenge mask from Traplet (www.traplethouse.com) is MW2032 in their product catalogue. It's 1/7 scale, 5-color and goes for $5.20. In case you're interested, MW2031 is a 1/7 scale Fokker D-VII to go with it.

papermache

RE: Lozenge
 

Bob Holman Plans sells already cut cardboard stencils for 4 and 5 color lozenge fabric along with some literature on the subject. I have set of 1/4 scale, very nice, but bit the bullet and used Glen Torrence fabric. Less work than painting,looks wonderful but, as someone else already said-heavy.

RE: Lozenge
 

If you google "Fokker restoration" you will find a site in Germany restoring a D-VII. They have a link to full size lozenge fabric made in Kentucky. It may be worth a look.

RE: Lozenge
 

Thanks for the help everyone.

RE: Lozenge
 

I have been researching the lozenge printing idea for a future project (Siemens Schukert D-III in 1/6th scale). Earlier I designed and kitted a Fokker E.V (D.VIII) in 1/8th scale and had success using a Canon laserjet printer on light bond paper. This was for an electric model and quite small and the process wouldn't work on a larger, glow powered subject.
For the Siemans Schukert I am looking at places that do dye-sub printing on fabric for signs and banners. This is a beautiful process and the colors are amazing. I do not know about fading although many of these products are used outside. I think they will fade (anything will) but how much is yet to be determined.
One of the places sent me samples of the printing on various fabrics. Most of these places won't print on supplied fabric, just their own. The one (DPI, San Francisco) indicated they would at least try a sample if I sent it in. The dye-sub process involves high heat to set the colors so printing on iron-on fabrics would not work.
With the samples of fabric sent to me, their "poplin" fabric is good for opacity and great color. Its weight is about 4 oz per yard which is okay. The color is not affected by iron heat so could be ironed on, using balsarite or balsaloc as adhesive (applied to the framing). The fabric does not seem to shrink with even high heat so getting rid of wrinkles is a big issue. I may try doping it to see if that shrinks it.
Another step is to send them some SIG Koverite (no adhesive) and see if they can print on that. It can be heat shrinked at least.
The SS D.III had a strange and complicated way of applying the fabric. The top wing had the fabric applied at a 45 degree angle to the leading edge but the bottom wing ran parallel to the leading edge. This makes it hard to use the GT fabric or the AZ Modelcrafters fabric so I would make my own CYMK files and send them out.

RE: Lozenge
 

Here is a study pix I posted on the Aerodrome site, after I got the alignment information from Dan-San Abbott. If I can work out the issues, I will get his color chips and make up my whole-wing files to send off.
The third pix shows one of the Fokker (four color camo on E.V 151/18) images, which included all the fuselage graphics making the color scheme super fast to build. The other versions of the Fokker are also shhttp://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/post.asp?do=reply&messageID=6764677&toStyle=tm#
Click here to upload images and files!own.

RE: Lozenge
 

I really need some Lozenge in 1/6th scale! too!

FA[8D]

RE: Lozenge
 

This is the sort of thing that really tests a person's commitment to "scratch building!" :D I like to think that I'd enjoy and learn from the process of either producing my own lozenge fabric or of devising a way to paint it on.

But I strongly suspect that if someone suddenly announced that they were selling rolls of lozenge solartex in the appropriate 4 and 5 color (with different top and bottom colors) patterns, I'd be sending them my money TODAY!!! ;)

I've had my eye on a LVG VI for a while.

RE: Lozenge
 

I painted the ones on my Fokker EV. It really was not so bad; the first color was the worst as it seemed to take the longest. I think it took two afternoons. I am looking for easer ways and I have some ideas, but I will not let it stop me from building the other 3 lozenge planes I want to if I dont.

RE: Lozenge
 

I second that!

I have Glenn Torrance's 1/4 scale fabric, but I [ and others] need Lozenge covering in 1/6th, 1/5th, other scales.

FA[8D]

RE: Lozenge
 

The March 2007 issue of Model Airplane News has an article on making and printing "Homemade Lozenge Fabric". They have a scale-able .BMP file that you can request from them. (www.modelairplanenews.com) Also a back issue of the March 2007 can also be bought from them. I have tried it on Koverall, the ink goes right through it. The author used a cotton/poly fabric.
Joe

RE: Lozenge
 

I have printed lozenge on both silkspan and tissue succesfully. If you have access to a laser printer, it is water tolerant for shrinking but dope must be sprayed on or it will smear. Make samples as the colors must be played with a bit as the colors darken after being doped.

Dave