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New ballast system

Old 07-26-2008, 06:37 PM
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Default New ballast system

This system uses a flex bag and a automotive 12 volts pump.

The difference with other systems is that it almost doesn't compress air into a tight compartment, instead the air inside escapes through a small tube, glued to the bag. When emptying the ballast, water is pumped out; as the tube is (now) submerged, the water tries to enter the bag but it can't because the tube has a very narrow inner diammeter (1mm), so a vaccum is created inside the bag and it shrinks, making the submarine surfaces again once some amount of water is pumped out.

Once the small tube gets into contact with the air again, if the pump is still running it sucks air into the bag, emptying it more quickly, and the sub is on the surface again.

A clunk is needed to be sure that water will be pumped out from the bottom of the bag, and the tube has to be raised enough to let the bubble escape through it.

Simple, reliable, cheap, no valves needed, just a flex bag (I use a serum bag, those you see at the hospital), the pump has to be a geared one but no need for a strong one, since it doesn't have to cope with the pressure created when you pump water compressing air in a pressurized bottle; the pump is designed to run on 12 volts, I make it run in 6volts with success!

I'm gonna post a vid as soon as possible.
Regards
Robert
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Old 07-26-2008, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Video link here:
(Please forgive my English,...first vid,...a bit nervious...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ME3slfbKU
Old 07-26-2008, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Interesting... but without a valve, how can you prevent water from coming back in into the bag when the pump is turned off? Especially with a vacuum in the bag.
Old 07-26-2008, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Well, the pump has some sealing property, it leaks some drops but under high pressure (not this case); but the bag doesn't fully recover its original shape, it remains somehow shrinked, until the tube gets into contact with the air, then as air enters the bag it recovers its shape; the vacuum exists only while pumping, when I stop the pump, there's no more vacuum inside the bag; as for the WTC, the vacuum is very weak.

When using a pump, you will need a valve if you must keep air under high pressure (after gaving pumped water into the tight tank, but that's not the case.

And then the sub is on the surface, the pump seal is enough to prevent water entering the bag.

Please see the vis I just posted.
Regards
Old 07-27-2008, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

This is very similar on how SUBTECH makes the WTC on the USS Alabcore and Marlin. I dont see the difference. My WTC on my USS albacore works the same way.
Old 07-27-2008, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

This is "not very similar" to the SUBTECH Albacore and Marlin: with those systems, you need to surface using the motors to pump air into the bag, my system is different, you just pump water out of the bag even at depth creating a weak vacuum inside the WTC. When the narrow tube is in contact the the air, it sucks some air but this is not necessary to emerge, just to inflate the bag to help it recover its size and filling the vacuum inside the WTC, and with no valves (you need valves with the those SUBTECH systems).

Regards
Old 07-28-2008, 07:29 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

I can't get y head around this to to see how this could work in a model sub. Is this bag designed to go in the dry watertight compartment or in the wet compartment? I am guessing it is in the wet compartment because if it were in the dry compartment there would have to be a change in pressuure with that comartment . It looks like the only time there will be air inside the bag is when you start off. When you fill it with water the air escapes and when you drain the waer out with the pump the bag collapses. When you now switch off the pump, the bag will remain collapsed even if the air pipe is above the water.
Old 07-28-2008, 07:37 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

The bag is in the dry compartment, and the change in pressure is very small. Thats the "source" of air to surface.
I will install it in a tight compartment (I don't have a sub yet) and make it work for you.

It doesn't have a valve, it has a "virtual valve": the narrow tube lets air escape or enter but prevents water pass through it (maybe some drops but it doesn't count).

Combining all the aspects of ballast systems, safety, reliability, effectiveness and cheap, it should be nice choice.

Regards.
Old 07-31-2008, 04:28 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

I see how that works. The pump you have is a gear pump which actually seals by contacting the teeth of the gears with each other and the bore walls they sit in. These pumps are almost leak proof past the gears themselves
Old 08-04-2009, 03:06 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Now you can see it working guys. There's no excuse: believe me, it's a static diving system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNeHTlvmYkY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq-USPSra5E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8PKj_cIoz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6zig13EbKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HclVzpJ_9d0

UNDERWATER CAMERA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34P-vOBEOPg

How was my dive?
Old 08-04-2009, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system


ORIGINAL: rva1945

How was my dive?
Flawless!
Old 01-03-2010, 03:24 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Cool. I was thinking of doing something similiar with a camel pack bag. WTG!
Old 01-06-2010, 10:26 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

That kind of system has been tryied before and has the following drawbacks.

Eventualy the bag will crack ,leak or burst letting alot of water into a dry space without warning untill the casing is flooded.

With no releafe  valve or means to divert water pressure when the bag gets full ,the bag is in great danger of litaraly exploding not good!
As these gear pumps can produce tremenduse PSI and make great hydraulic pumps as in the larger aplications.
A non positive displacement pump works much safer.

As the gear pump wears its internal tolerances increase and water flow will increase and the bag will fill very easily needing to constantly pump it out just to stay afloat,waisting power.

The best bag system i have ever seen and used is on the SB-1 by Thunder Tiger ,the hole system with its integrated failsafe and over pressure pump cut off along with low power surface feature and no signal surface function is a jem of a system.No valves are used as well but that is due to the type of pump,a paristolic pump acts as a valve in both directions and as a pump. 

Sorry been there done that a long time ago.


 
Old 01-06-2010, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

In my casings the ballst tank is a true tank ,strong and always watertight since it is also inside of the casing.
Why build it that way one it is imparitive that a reliable means to contain the water which will have pressure both coming in and laeving will require a strong tank as is seen on the full size subs.I could also use a bag but I would set it up just like the TT system and would cost alot more.
In my ballast system the tanks pressure is kept within contol by the 2 one way valves and that way the entire tank is used with no hi PSI or vacume induced.

A very inexpensive and reliable system anyone can make,
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Which is the best ballast system? That question has as many answers as possibilities, and it depends on what you are looking for. My system is cheap, easy to home-build and effective.

Let me pease reply to your post:

"That kind of system has been tryied before and has the following drawbacks."

Where and when? I have not seen it before.

"Eventualy the bag will crack ,leak or burst letting alot of water into a dry space without warning untill the casing is flooded."

This kind of bag doesn't crcak or leak. The key is the material. I even subjected it to pumping until the pump can't put more water in it without any leak.

"With no releafe valve or means to divert water pressure when the bag gets full ,the bag is in great danger of litaraly exploding not good!"

Didn't you see the bag has two connections, one to the pump, the other to the outside world? It will never see its internal pressure grow to any dangerous limit.

"As these gear pumps can produce tremenduse PSI and make great hydraulic pumps as in the larger aplications."

Just the opposite, these geared pumps are not that powerful as peristaltic pumps, this system is a low pressure system, just to name it.

"A non positive displacement pump works much safer."

What? What is a non positive displacement pump?

"As the gear pump wears its internal tolerances increase and water flow will increase and the bag will fill very easily needing to constantly pump it out just to stay afloat,waisting power."

As for the wear, that's something to be tested. And please keep in mind that my sub is configured to be (as close as possible to) neutral buoyancy, I don't need to pump water out constantly.

"The best bag system i have ever seen and used is on the SB-1 by Thunder Tiger ,the hole system with its integrated failsafe and over pressure pump cut off along with low power surface feature and no signal surface function is a jem of a system.No valves are used as well but that is due to the type of pump,a paristolic pump acts as a valve in both directions and as a pump. "

I just give my opinions for the system I tried, with success in this case. My first trials were with a homemade peristaltic pump, and yes, it's a valve itself when not running, but I discarded it due to small flow. As for complicated and sophisticated systems, there are no limits.

These are tests done with the peristaltic version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwQXh7kTyfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqdz2qhQxNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGVXXjU8fs0


Old 01-06-2010, 09:10 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

I don't mean to criticise your work just pointing out things to consider..
You will find that after relativly short use the gear pump will let more and more water threw especialy since it gets dry in some part of the cycle ,these pumps don't like to run dry at all and the valve efect will be lost,I found that out and had to install a solinoid valve for larger subs and cintered brass filter for smaller ones as even just 2 inches bellow the surface the pump would leak water past.The paristolic pump is the best for bag and tank systems.

I also found that the pump gets warm and even hot so I made my tank hold the watertight pump which was sealed for that use,the one you use can also be watertight with just GOOP and that way it stays cool ,run it in the wet or in the tank if a bag is not used.
Howe ever there is the amount of ballasted water used to achieve the desired water line,as you said your sub would be almost nuetraly ballasted,that is great for some subs but most in general require a higher free board area for more scale like operation,that is the problem with most bag systems.
In tanked systems that is not the case as the intire tank is used as is in the full scale subs.Fully adjustable to a full normal range of boyancy that is also why bag systems are not used on full scale subs ,as far as I know.Also at depth the bag will get fuller from external water pressure and preciese depth control will be dificult and cost more in power as constant pumping will be needed.
At depth out at sea I would not want that bag to fail no mater what its maid from ,too risky.

In my opinion its saffer to make a tank and to any size needed by the way than a few choices of bags.
I had experimented with variuse bag systemsyears ago and only had bad results from internal leaks to CG shifting something I did metion before,with a tank and baffles the water sloshing is kept undercontrol in larger subs,though both do have a CG shift at least it can be morecontroled with a tank system.

The tank and pump system has ben around for a very long time and has been tried and true to prove that it works as it does to this day on the full scale machines.
It is great to see otherCaptains building and experimenting with there subs as it should be but I thoaught itwould be benificial to render some experiance in this area as I have alot of and have made my own very true to life ballast systems even to this day and still always looking to improve them.


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Old 01-06-2010, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Also noticed that no filter is used ,one must be used if the pump is going to last past a few cycles or one in a pond,jam the head underwater and its all over.

How does the bag emty if there is a line to the sea,water will be coming in that way?
A .30 c one way valve will prevent this.

Just a thaught.
Old 01-06-2010, 10:10 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

I guess most of your concerns derive of your lack of precise acknowledgment about my system. It is not a standard pump and tank system, where, yes, the pump drains more and more amps when filling the tank, due to the air inside raising pressure NOT MY CASE. As I fill the bag, the air escapes through a hose which has a one way valve, that valve prevents water to enter again when "blowing" the tank, maybe a few drops through the tiny hole in he hose, while more "gallons" are pumping out through the pump, this way making the sub emerge.

FILTER: yes, there is one, I made it, connected to the water intake, find it here (and tested running the sub on surface and dived through dirty waters one day at the pond):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQ-EubPou0

"How does the bag empty if there is a line to the sea,water will be coming in that way?" Would you still feel worried about it after 5 hours floating without loosing 1mm of waterline? I mean, it didn't sit lower in the water after that time. To be honest, that was the first thing I tested because I had the same concern.

And please keep in mind that the bag IS NOT FLEXIBLE, I'd say, semi-rigid. It will not fill and take more water than its capacity.

I designed and built this small system to install it the my 1/144 Seawolf, I have just a 2.5" diameter inside the WTC.

I am working in another project: a 1/50 TR1700 of the Argentine Navy, but this is a totally different project: no room restrictions (roughly 3.7" inside the WTC), and the ballast system will be a geared pump, a closed (pressirised) tank and solenoid valves.

Regards






Old 01-06-2010, 10:36 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system



I am sorry but you did not see how mine works it is a non presurized tank system ,see diagram,real one way valves are used,that way the pump and lines are not stressed or amprage increse.I fully acknoledge the system you areusing,before as mentioned at first you said no valves now you say you use valves,even if its just a smaller line it will still alow water to return into the bag simi flexable or not,this has all been tried before.
It might be ok on small subs but on larger ones there is going to be problems especialy in the freeboard aspect and at depth.
This system is very similar to others posted.

I guess most of your concerns derive of your lack of precise acknowledgment about my system. It is not a standard pump and tank system, where, yes, the pump drains more and more amps when filling the tank, due to the air inside raising pressure NOT MY CASE. As I fill the bag, the air escapes through a hose which has a one way valve, that valve prevents water to enter again when "blowing" the tank, maybe a few drops through the tiny hole in he hose, while more "gallons" are pumping out through the pump, this way making the sub emerge.


Dave Amur Sub Yard</p>
Old 01-07-2010, 08:01 AM
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Default RE: New ballast system

"...at first you said no valves now you say you use valves..."

???

My Seawolf uses no valves at all.

I will use a valve in my next project, TR1700. What's wrong with my English?
Old 01-07-2010, 01:53 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Its not the English but the vage discription of the aplications and components.

I would have a  concern about this:

instead the air inside escapes through a small tube, glued to the bag.

If that bond weakens or cracks there will be an internal leak made worse when trying to surface or diveing.

Still with the bag system the freeboard are is very small.

I would invest a bit more money for better components and have peace of mind!


Buen trabajo pero le falta un poco mas en mi opinion.

David  Submarinos De Vida
Old 01-07-2010, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

High freeboard on the German built Argentine sub and the size you going to build will need iether a Compressor bassed or Non Presurized tank system.,,If not she will always lay very low in the water ...lul.
Old 01-07-2010, 03:50 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

As for the glue and durability...I have something to say about it: almost 10 years ago I made an experiment that I recently applied in my Seawolf, the ballast system. Guess what? That (500cc) bag is still glued to the hose and works. I have a vid that I didn't post but I'll do it if I find it. Then, I didn't build RC subs, but just for curiosity I experimented with the ballast system I finally used now.

As for the TR1700...three different guys of our association made the calculations and tests (one of them a naval engineer involved in the design of the TR1700 for the Argentine Navy, he gave us a full detailed and comprehensive lesson about the sub, I even visited it in the shipyard where it's cut in half, being refitted and given maintenance), well, depending on all the extra features you are going to install (masts, torps and all of that), you'll need 800cc to 1100cc of water to dive it.

Mine will need just 800cc or so to dive. I'll use two 1000cc bottles, one of them will take water and the other connected to the former just to keep air pressure low (I mean, in a worst case scenario, I will compress the air to half its initial volume). A solenoid valve will prevent water from escaping this way keeping (as close to neutral as possible) buoyancy.

The quantity of water needed to achieve that neutral buoyancy will be limited by a screw which will limit it according to pressure build-up. I find it hard to explain it now, I'll make a diagram. And the adjustment will have to be made from the outside, I don't want to detach the WTC from the hull tens of times before finding the correct setup.

APC, ADC, etc? Man, this is Argentina, all those nice electronic gadgets have to be imported from abroad, not easy, not sure, not cheap. That's why many of us creat our own solutions.

By the way, this is our site, in Spanish, but please click on the pictures accessed by the sections at the left menu:

www.camne.com.ar

Regards
Robert


Old 01-07-2010, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system

Very nice website and great looking subs and boats.

I do not know if you can get GOOP ,it is a comon adheasive sealer here that works extreamly well for subs I have been using it for years now along with Epoxies and have never had a failure due to the Goop,since it is clear and sets hard but not rigid and stickts very well,it makes for clear joints and that are strong yet can be removed if desired onlike epoxie that is more permament and can have expantion essuse and thermal limitations.
I noticed the use of a white epoxie on the SeaWolfs casing it seemed a bit too much that it made it dificult to see the structures.
The use of GOOP or something similar makes it easeir to locate leaks thrue the GOOP and clear casings anymicrow leak is very visable in the water.

Well back to the ballast system,with the pump you are using ,a Fiat windshield washer and the volume of water intendid to be pumped in and out the pump will get very hot,I would sugest that the pump be made to run in the wet areasealed from the water..

On mysubs I had to do that and it took careof the heat problem.

Here are some of the equipment and diagrams i use on my subs and others.
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:23 PM
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Default RE: New ballast system



The clear casings are my discovery and aplication to the RC Sub and have had very good results as they are very robust 1/4 inch walls with special seals and enginnered to take a beating ,they can take a tremenduse vacume and can go to 35 feet down,not known exactly the cruch depth but i bet itsover 60 ft!! and not leak yet can be easily diasembled and random acsses is possible without removing the intire internals and no tools ore fastners required!

Made by Valltera  si estas interesado P Mensaje ?</p>

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