I was wondering if any of the Bergepanzers were converted into Flakpanzers, or had Anti Aircraft guns(like a FLAKVIERLING, or any other AA gun) mounted into their tops. Reason being that Isaw a BergePANTHER and a BergePANZERon Awesome Hobbies and I thought it would look cool to mount a Quad or a Bofors in the wooden top. I know the pupose of the Bergepanzers, so dont explain that to me, I need to find out if any AAguns were mounted on them or not.

thanks, Jagdtiger
i need to change my user name.i dont even have a jagdtiger

A Bergepanzer was strictly a tow truck and had no room for AA weapons. Vehicles carried a single 7.92 cal MG for protection,. The AA vehicles were outfitted with the number of weapons needed and all space was used for crew, ammo and weapon related gear. Can't make a dual purpose vehicle out of a bergepanzer. Would be nice to have a Flakvierling in the area while you were pulling out a disabled Panzer.

I bet you will have one sooner than you think JT. Once the BIG tanks get under your skin, there is no turning back.....LOL Keep the tag in tribute to your grandfather. Bob

PS Maybe these pix will give you some painting ideas.

After reading this post, it got me thinking about something I read a while back. On checking an old AFV MAGAZINE from January 2008, lo and behold! a bergepanther converted to a flakpanzer.

The model was based on a photograph taken in the village of Bohemen now in the czech republic showing a bergpanther sitting in a town square with a 37mm Flak on top. The supposition being that at this time of the conflict, in this theatre, there were fewer tanks to recover and more of a need for an AA capability. It appears to be a field conversion with the wooden cockpit area removed and the Flak 37 literally just bolted over the turret ring.

The model looks pretty damn good. I'm sure some of our more ITK members will come on here and swear black is white that it couldn't have happened because the moon rising in Aquarius meant that they didn't have the correct delineated flangebolts for the thingummy jig to be attached to the whatsit but I'm only going on this ONE photograph and the subsequent article and model build in this magazine.

Abo.

ABO,
Can you post a pic from the article?

Jim

Sorry mate, I did try to scan it but the repro wasn't very good and it would have meant cutting out the pages from the magazine and at nearly $10 a mag I won't be doing that anytime soon. Go onto www.afvmodeller.com and check thier back issues page there's a picture of it on that months front cover its no.38, jan/feb 2008. Any probs, get back to me.

Abo.

OK....conversion is the key word that I skipped over...toward the end, the Germans were using everything they had and understandable that with the lack of much to tow and the increase on allied air activity, some vehicles were retrofitted to something else. They also had some pretty potent stuff being developed that didn't get into the war. In Korea, we wound up retrofitting an M-46 as a VTR. Removed the damaged turret and mounted a couple tow bars. I'd like to see that photo of the Bergepanzer retrofit.

Abo could you translate ITK into English as I haven't got a clue what it means, I know the picture you are talking off it was taken from an upstairs window with the Panther in the distance, not a close picture and it's assumed to be a Bergpanther conversion but could just as easily be a gun tank converted, and yes I do have the picture in fact I think there may have been 2 pictures from different angles

Patton, don't worry mate, I wasn't having a dig at you, I like your imputs about your experiences with armour.

Jim, looking at that AFV website, you can actually buy PDF files of specific articles, one of which is the build you're looking for, about $2 a pop.

ITK.... In The Know.

Abo.

Interesting. There is also a record of a work kompanie doing some conversions on Sherm hulls, the 4 barrel flak, at the end of the war. Also, there is extant a photo of a T34 with the same flak on him. Don't know if it was the same kompanie or not though.

Althought they didn't start as bergpanzers I've thought these'd be a good conversion

Flak guns on tanks were not just for shooting down plains quite the reverse, and is the reason why they where developed in 1943 on the eastern front in various forms, they were also used by the Germans to great effect in Halb of cause the clueless will ague the toss

I agree, Rivet. While there are some things that will raise the stress level as much, I can't think of many things more distressing than looking down the collective orifices of a cluster of 20 mike mikes, all on one pivot point and slightly up range of you, and the lad with his foot on the firing pedal is exceptionally irritated at you for being in his AO.

*** are you guys talking about. English please. LOL

There is a version of the Bergepanther converted to a Pz IV turreted AFV.

the Germans discovered very early in there invasion of Russia that Flak guns where very useful against waives of Russian infantry there are pictures of Flak 37 being used in the anti infantry roll I think there is even film one thing you will notice is the crew lying on the ground firing the weapon through the foot controls using tracer to aim the weapon this was very devastating against infantry and lightly armored vehicles to get these weapons into action quickly the next stage was to mount them on trucks but these were lightly armored and easily lost various units used whatever tank that was capable of carrying Flak guns T34, and Panther was adapted along with Sherman and anything else that fell into German hands once on a tank they were very mobile well armored and devastating against anything other than tanks, the Halb pocket was south of Berlin it was a moving pocket as opposed to the usual static type the Germans used adapted flak tanks along with westwind, whirlwind and 38T variants called Gepard predominantly against Russian infantry, in 5 days of fighting the Germans lost an estimated 50-80000 infantry and 10000 plus civilians, to those in the know this is nothing new.

The Bergpanther D with PzIV turret has been covered various times on this forum before, again nothing new

To those who've been members here for a long time then there's very little that will be new, but as the person who started the thread only joined last month then it'll probably all be new to him.

Jagdtiger,
Why not build a bergepanther?
Frank

"to those in the know" and "clueless", blimey get off your high horse, this is a hobby forum, get it? H O B B Y! we're supposed to get pleasure from it, its just NOT that important in the grand scheme of things. How do you expect younger, or more inexperienced people to join and enquire if they're shot to bits and put down just because they are still learning the HOBBY and know less, than some self opinionated know all?

Jim, at least you can build your flakpanzer now because, as has been stated, the photo may be a gun tank converted but it could also be a bergepanther too, NOBODY knows for sure so you can sleep safe tonight knowing that a SWAT team won't be breaking your door down to beat the life out of you for daring to build something that POSSIBLY, JUST POSSIBLY, didn't exist.

Someone needs to book into thier local hospital to get a stick surgically removed.

If you're looking for a new name Jim, how about "FLAK BOY", you're certainly causing some!
.

You made me laugh so hard my eyesnearly bled!

Not only the Germans. The M-16 and M-15A1 halftracks were designed for AA, but although, "officially" they were not used against personnel, they became known as Chink choppers. When you have 4-5 waves of Screaming Chinese coming at you, those things were the ultimate blessing. In Russia, the Wehmacht had the same problem, and those quad 20mms really did a job. Hey, the Tiger's mean 88 is an AA gun

I think that I'll just forget about the make-shift Flakpanzer and get a Brummbar. I wish Matorro or Henglong would come out with either a Wiblewind, Ostwind, or any Anti-Aircraft vehical for those of us who can't stad the USA Halftrack one. Reason for getting a Brummbar??? I was watching the Wochenshau and saw the only footage of one riding next to a KT and a Jagdpanzer IV. since I already have a KT I might as well as make a Brummbar. Im going to model the Grumbler( another name for the Brummar besides Stupa) after one from the Sturmpanzer Abteilung 217 which fought in Caen, Battle of the Bulge, and eventually surrendered in the Ruhr. So to all of the people that think that becasue i am 14 years old I dont know anything about WWIIand tanks, suck it!

As stated many times before, make what you want to make as long as it keeps YOU happy. You will never make everyone happy. By all means, do some research if you are after a degree of realism in your build. I refer to my builds as being stand off scale. the farther you stand off the more scale it looks. We all make mistakes and not all of us are into complete realism.That is OK also. I wasn't there and can't give first hand information either, so we have to rely on pictures and written accounts to do the best we can. That is all anyone can ask of another.

Sonny, you watch your mouth. You are a 14 year old child whose mother bought him a tank, period. You think I don't know Vincent? He's a customer of mine, known him for years. Next reference to anything like you put at the end of your post, and you may well be looking for another forum to visit. And I would strongly suggest you go in to your post and edit that choice little phrase out.

While you may have done some research, you can not hold a candle to some of the lads here who have been building and researching for far longer than you have been alive. Exercise a little respect, and keep your schoolboy playground language on the playground, not here. This is an adult forum, and many of the tankers will be more than willing to help you with any questions you may have involving anything in our hobby. However, be polite and inquisitive, not confrontational, and you will get far more and better results. To put it in words you can probably understand better, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Understood?

jagdtiger, I have been on this forum with these fine men for little over a year now and have made some very good friends. I am much older than you and have never said anything remotely close to your disrespectful remarks to some of these very good men, many of which actually served this country and others before you were a twinkle in your old man's eye. So, if these fine men will excuse my use of the english language for a moment, I must tell you very plainly that you can either stay and learn and show respect, or get the **** out of this forum and go play in traffic punk.