and

These two posts are connected... Sorry for the off, guys, but don't you see that the Society of Clubs and simply RC Tankers need some kind of International organization, that would protect them and help them in many different cases. As far as I can see there was the attempt earlier.

Don't you see the neccesity of this? When we have met with Sevlast year we have been discussing this topic briefly and now Ican feel the time is comming. There arerespected people - RC Tankers in North America,Europe,Russia and CIS, Australia and NZ and East... These people know whatthere market needs, what their rc-tankers feel andbreathe.ALLof us do have the same problems all over the world, but at the moment no producer listens to RCTankers.

Colleague YHR has said the crutious phrase - Manufactures MUSTlisten to us,we are their consumers first of all.
Also we need to be protected fromnon-honest shops and retailers...
There would be a good thing ofInternational Meet every Year somewhere for International Games RCTankBattles -Country by Country.

And so on, and so forth... These questions are all ours.What do you think?

Texas Armor addressed the issues completely, with a run what ya got policy.

If we can all band together under an international tankers organization, then perhaps the manufacturers will listen to us. When they see the number of tankers out there, I think they will be surprised. If we get one of the 3 or 4 main producers to listen, then that is a foot in the door, and the others will eventually follow suit.

I would foresee an international organization that accepts clubs and individuals, with a broad guideline for tank competitions, just a general outline of what can and can not run. Exceptions of course should be made for first timers, as they are usually at the beginning of the learning curve. I would suggest a simple speed chart of max on road speed as the allowable speed for each tank, and a simple equipment test, IOW test the emitter and receiver, and how many hits the tank takes to die. Rivet counting as to 'your Sherm has upgraded armour as a field mod and therefore you have to reduce your speed by 1.3362 MPH' don't cut it. We have to be reasonable and fair to all. On the other hand, if your Tiger 2 does an honest 70 KPH uphill with a head wind, then something needs to be done to reign him in a tad.

As we know from the other thread addressing competitions, there's a lot of controversy out there about tanks that are too fast, spin shots, various tricks to shield the apples etc. With an international organization, you would get the best brains amongst us (I'm not included in the brain trust for sure) to develope upgrades to our electronics and motive systems.

International competitions would be interesting to say the least. If one was held in Moskau for instance, you would have tankers from Ukraine, Byelorus, possibly Krim (finding a baby sitter and house sitter for 7 children is difficult for sure!), and EU. If held in EU, I'm sure the Russian and Krim contingent would attend if humanly possible, amongst others. In USA, it's a long drive for us in former SSSR, but it's still possible some of us can make it.

Bottom line, this is something for us all to think about. I'm not talking of an organization with draconian rules of membership and competitions, but more of an umbrella organization for all of us. Putting us together, we may well be able to get some action out of the manufacturers. Alone, we have not a chance.

Sev

Ok, throw my hat in there…

The main concern with any international organization is to have very simple, achievable and economically viable entry requirements into the RC tank standards competitions.

Consider this:

1. All RC manufacturers accept and use IR for electronic tank battles, that’s a great first off standard.
2. The platform of performance generally agrees with Tamiya’s battlesystem, that’s another excellent milestone for standardization.
3. A method which requires minimal added expense to the tanker (i.e. tank mods to be compliant) to entry into international standards should be adopted. A ‘built per manufacturers instructions’ is a good start to having this as a standard.
4. Speed tables, armor ratings and projectile characteristics add complexity and cost that most RC battle tankers are not going to understand fully or be motivated to comply with. A ‘KISS’ (keep it simple stupid) approach is a logical way to proceed in this respect.
5. Whatever platform of battlesystem is accepted, all the advantages and disadvantages of that system have to be accepted by the organization as ‘legal’.

Numbers 1 and 2 are already there for the most part with RC tankers and manufacturers already in agreement.

Numbers 3 and 4 are the areas RC tankers really should hash out amongst themselves being mindful of widening the hobby to newbies rather than forming a sofisticated group of tankers.

Number 5 is generally accepted as the Tamiya operational system. The manufacturer and RC tankers should converse to determine best desired operational characteristics some of which we will have to live with to be able to play internationally.

"we are their consumers first of all"

that is true,but until club members are a major proportion of the tank buying public then Im not sure manufacturers need to listen. As was discussed on another thread,Im not sure club tankers + rc tank modellers//enthusiasts are a major proportion?

but standardised rules for championship matches are probably a good idea.

p

Another option to consider it two or three levels of combat competitions, beginners, intermediate, and Master Class, with the rules and regs needed for each.
Beginners would be for instance 'run what you brung' as long as it's box stock and Tamiya IR compatible. Intermediate would be speed adjusted, turret speeds correct, etc. Master Class would be Turnigy or equivalent, IFA on JT etc, absolute correct off road speed, main gun elevation and depression in prototype specs, turret speeds in prototype specs, the specified IR range for your tank, and whatever developements available at the time for the varied armour thicknesses of front, side, and rear in regards to hits in same.

OK, 2 more cents, and perhaps after the Master class is Open Class which is run what ya got, anything goes and box stock is beginner and or novice class.

It is simulated battle and the surprise factor of the other guy showing up with a better weapon system should be part of mock tank fighting, one would think. Simple, tightly regulated OEM club class competition in motorsports is boring to watch, similar to watching 20 identical Porsches race each other, though good for the various competing teams if all cars are equal, but still boring. Hence a top level open class is recommended and that is the class (in sports) that usualy draws a large share of both expert level and spectator interest.

And like rc aircraft, a annual international rc tank event might be fun and interesting if it is not weighted down by over regulation and knucleheaded rules like the flash, bang & fire guys who want the tip of the Tamiya flash unit to extend past the barrel end like a kitty cat's tongue, in the name of a better night show.

Colleagues,
as far as discussion has been started several things are to be set up (as I understand) by this International Organization and actual proposals for future standards:


<div style="text-align: center">EXECUTIVESUMMARY (updated daily)


</div><div style="text-align: left">ERICSCOTT (USA)</div>
1. Setting up the universaland standartized platform of performance of RCTank Models
2.International standards should be adopted to held WORLDand Regional competitions.A &lsquo;KISS&rsquo; (keep it simple stupid) approach is a logical way to proceed in this respect.
3. Whatever platform of battlesystem is accepted, all the advantages and disadvantages of that system have to be accepted by the organization as &lsquo;legal&rsquo;.

We could suggest the manufacturer have a LED intensity setting for class of tank, i.e. switching to heavy would increase range OR register 2 hits on one shot for instance. This would alleviate any tampering of the detector and put the setting where it should be - on the circuit board.


SEVOBLAST (USA)
<div style="border-bottom: medium none; text-align: left; border-left: medium none; background-color: transparent; color: #000000; overflow: hidden; border-top: medium none; border-right: medium none; text-decoration: none">I would foresee an international organization that accepts clubs and individuals, with a broad guideline for tank competitions, just a general outline of what can and can not run. Exceptions of course should be made for first timers, as they are usually at the beginning of the learning curve. I would suggest a simple speed chart of max on road speed as the allowable speed for each tank, and a simple equipment test, IOW test the emitter and receiver, and how many hits the tank takes to die. Rivet counting as to 'your Sherm has upgraded armour as a field mod and therefore you have to reduce your speed by 1.3362 MPH' don't cut it. We have to be reasonable and fair to all

</div>Another option to consider it two or three levels of combat competitions,
- beginners,
- intermediate,
- Master Class, with the rules and regs needed for each.

<div style="border-bottom: medium none; text-align: left; border-left: medium none; background-color: transparent; color: #000000; overflow: hidden; border-top: medium none; border-right: medium none; text-decoration: none">I'm not talking of an organization with draconian rules of membership and competitions, but more of an umbrella organization for all of us.

</div>LPOSTER(NORWAY)
Setting up standardized rules for championship matches.

C4ISTAR (USA)
After the Master class is Open Class which is run what ya got.


YHR(CANADA)
Standards would help us move this tanking hobby along.

I think if we took the Tamiya standard, improved it with the chrome domes, and variable range emitters, we would have a robust system that would be fun to work with. Tell all the manufactures to use this for thier projects going forward. Have Heng Long, Tamiya, Hooben , and everyone else playing on the same page. I t would cost the manufacturers nothing but it would be a huge win for the consumers.

It really is time to try and get some manufactureres to agree to a simple IR standard that would allow us to mis match components and still have them function together.

...get IR standardized. This is an area that brings all kinds of tanks together in one area.. It would be nice if all the systems played together. I don't want to make this such a huge encompassing set of standards that would just overwhelm people.

Start with Getting IR standardized...

WhiteWolf McBride (CANADA)

I'm all for an International R/C Tank Battle Association/Organization/whatever (someone work up a good acronym pls?)... but...

...FREQUENCIES...Anyone showing up with a non-legal radio should be asked to pull-batteries, and ~if~ they wish to run next visit, get a Compliant Radio unit.

<div style="text-align: center"><span style="color: #ff0000"><u>NAME PROPOSAL
</u></span></div>HAL HUSKER(RUSSIA)

RCTANKERSUNIONNTERNATIONAL

YHR (CANADA)

Radio Contol Tankers Assoication RCTA Followed by the country

RCTA Canada
RCTA USA
RCTA Russia

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________


<u>ASAproposal:</u>
would it be useful to set up the international SKYPE-teleconference to start discussions (possibly) in this direction not vertually but verbally also?

Also it is vitally important to listen to the opinions from Australia and NZ, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, UK, Italy, Check Republic, Canada, other USClubs, China, Thailand, Denmark etc...
<span style="color: #ff0000">Please correct me if the opinions are understood incorrectly.
</span>

All well and good, but your analogy is flawed. We fight in 4 to 6 tank teams, and I've seen campaigns with as many as 10 tanks on each side, and it's team work, tactics, and strategy that will often decide the winner. Also, the wild card is once the monitor calls "start your tanks", you can not touch them if, for instance, you toss a track or your turret jams. You're on your own, kid. Only exception to that is if a tank begins to run wild. And we haven't even addressed freq control. More of the mundane details to be hashed out.

I was heavily involved in Model railroading. That hobby has the NMRA. This organization was formed to ensure manufacturers were following some type of standard to allow differnt peices of equipment to work together. In Model Railroading they have Digital command control. A set standard was adopted by the NMRA, and companies that manufacturer to that standard got the NMRA stamp of approval. This meant the consumer could buy a piece of Model railroad equipment, and know that if it had the NMRA stamp of approval it would work with everything else he had.

Lenz volunteered their DCC design to the hobby, and it was adopted as standard.

Standards would help us move this tanking hobby along.

I think if we took the Tamiya standard, improved it with the chrome domes, and variable range emitters, we would have a robust system that would be fun to work with. Tell all the manufactures to use this for thier projects going forward. Have Heng Long, Tamiya, Hooben , and everyone else playing on the same page. I t would cost the manufacturers nothing but it would be a huge win for the consumers.

Just image if VS tanks played by these rules too. All their target options they are now manufacturing could then be used by everyone.

It really is time to try and get some manufactureres to agree to a simple IR standard that would allow us to mis match components and still have them function together.

That is so funny!
LOL My cat's lickin ya!

We could suggest the manufacturer have a LED intensity setting for class of tank, i.e. switching to heavy would increase range OR register 2 hits on one shot for instance.

This would alleviate any tampering of the detector and put the setting where it should be - on the circuit board.

Yes this is what I would suggest. I am hearing everyone thinks the range of the current emitter is enough for long range. That makes this very simple. A small circuit board could be inserted between the IR LED output of the MFU and the LED. The power delivered to the LED would be set by adjusting jumpers that route the MFU output through different resisters on its way to the IR LED. This resistors would drop the current feed to the LED to produce ranges of 10 and 20 meters.

Simple and effective, with no change to the current Tamiya or DBC. Just a small plug in board.

I am bringing one of these to Danville. The super IR emitter lense

heavyaslead, LOL, great black model, just outstanding, the best of the best, but such a stupid looking barrel. LOL.

The open class would be a lot like Can Am road racing in the 1970's, or a modern tech race gun in practical pistol shooting today:the only real rule is that there ain't many rules! LOL.

And servo, the open class recommendation is an unlimited fighting class that welcomes the diversity of all era tanks, whether a paper tank design, a tank that was protyped and didn't make it into production or whatever else, ie, electronic inovation, BIGmotors, gearbox build extremes, etc etc, hidden battle units, battle units disguised in the tank commander and would include all your model tank's I might add, with those controversial lowered apples. LOL.

The open class is best defined as build your WWI, WWII or modern era tank to win, to be superbly superior, to be unique, and it doesn't matter whether your fighting with a 2 man team or 20 man team, or what your tactics are, but the open class tank gets some time and a place on the field to fight and show its stuff.

And I would also suggest a master scale class is included, so all the master modeling rivet counters with their extreme, but delicate detail builds get their day in the sun. Way more to the rc tank hobby than just the usual run of the mill rc tank club bashers...LOL.

John

PS And here is what model tank muzzles should look like. LOL

I agree the flash sticking out is rather -stupid- agreed.

There will have to be some convincing of some battle tankers as some feel like they absolutely must see the flash (from any angle) to know the tank has fired.

Basically they need to time their shots in order to use the fanshot effectively and count shots in competitions. These are serious lazer tag battlers mind you.

Guys...

I'm all for an International R/C Tank Battle Association/Organization/whatever (someone work up a good acronym pls?)... but...

Firstly, there is one pre-existing set of regs we cannot flaunt, under fear of penalties: FREQUENCIES.

Most countries have already set these, and many uf us have run up against them at one time or another (~cough~Danville~cough~) In Canada and the us, its 27 and 75MHz, over in Europe, I think 35 and 50 are the Surface use ones, and I've got no clue elsewhere, though if you ask the local store, they'll know.

These should be ironclad, most times, as insurance is ~Dependant~ on that for safety reasons. For any of you unsure, ask Karen at the AAF about issues. Anyone showing up with a non-legal radio should be asked to pull-batteries, and ~if~ they wish to run next visit, get a Compliant Radio unit (could be a way to sell older radios, guys, eh?) Also a good reason for 'loaner tanks' (does AAF have newbie-use HL's or basic/beater Tamiyas)

Beyon that, I agree with the stipulations posted... although they were offered a few years ago... another organization was formed, went 'seriously south' for assorted reasons ( nor up for discussion here, as its history, agreed?) and is basically a closed and rather isolated group now. My point is... we need to all agree, and take these to Tamiya, and Hen Long, as the two major suppliers, correct? Tamiya has listened to us in some areas, as has Hen Long (hurrah on the M41 - for the most part! And the Sherman Variants!)

So... Can we ALL agree, and present a ~Unified~ association to the manufacturers? I'd like to hear from the various members of the Tanking Associations... Both North American, European, and elsewhere.

Please add/append any membership associations to your posts, if you are a member. Then we know if the membership agrees with their spokespeople...

WhiteWolf McBride
as yet a non-memnber, as there is no local association (Can-Am is a TAD far...)

I just want to get IR standardized. This is an area that brings all kinds of tanks together in one area.. It would be nice if all the systems played together. I don't want to make this such a huge encompassing set of standards that would just overwhelm people.

Start with Getting IR standardized. Even if it is just the frequency used in the receivers and emitters, and then move to the next issue.

Name Proposal - <span style="font-size: small">RCTankers Union International</span>.</p>

Dan, it seems that companies are getting on the same page alread. We all know thatTamiya is the standard for IR battles.Hooben's first offering has plug and play electronics that ARE Tamiya compatible, ELMOD's battle system is also for Tamiya battles and David's system converts the HL tanks for Tamiya.Seems that all bases are covered in that repsect.

+1 to YHR and Sev,

(MY POINT OF VIEW, besides we are dicussing this subject inside our society) we need to start at least with one step + basic rules, and then move sowely forward enlarging the portfolio of ideas and enhancements to the Battles' Systems in geneal.

How about

Radio Contol Tankers Assoication RCTA Followed by the country

RCTA Canada
RCTA USA
RCTA Russia

Not really, Tamiya and Hooben, no questions.

BUTHengLong and Mato - is a different story. This tanks are not standardized. Only IFMATOor HengLong (imagine IF- !!!) puts David's system in their tank-models, only then tanks will fit the stadard that we are talking about. If NOT, then everybody needs to put "the stanadard IR" inside his tank...

This is not the Producer does, but an RC-Tanker (according to OURInternational Stadard).

an option - as well

The frequency is the same but that is it. An EL Mod or DBU is at a big disadvantage against a TBU. We all know how important it is to have the IR recievers the same. All I wish is we could move away from the Tamiya apple or at least correct its flaws before we call it the standard, otherwise this hobby will be stuck with it and its silly 45 degree defense.